The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

Morbert

J C wrote: »

...the belief that mutations can add to CSI is like somebody believing that you can improve your car through having repeated accidents with it!!!!!

No it isn't. where on earth did you get that idea?

monosharp

man of faith wrote: »

why do you limit yourself to logic? Logic is an inherant function of our brain used to process information. Yet phenomenon defies, or should I say transcends logic, so if logic is all your relying on to disect the truth then your going to run into real problems.

Because logic is the entire basis for every single aspect of our lives ?

Its the reason we have a society, law, science, medicine, education etc.

And if you are correct then a god gave us this logic, was he trying to trick us ?

Has it also ever occurred to you that what you are percieving as evolution could very well be things that God has actually created?

There is nothing that says god didn't create evolution so I cannot say he didn't. I can 100% say that creationism as (literally) described in the Bible has been completely disproved by science.

By the way, he very much pondered the possibility of a God has a highly likely scenario.

Whether or not Albert Einstein did something or other means nothing to me. Einstein was also wrong about many scientific things.

But just fyi he did not believe in the judeo-christian god.

monosharp

man of faith wrote: »

Well atleast you play fair Malty. Already I feel that we are communicating well. I'm glad to hear that you have not ruled out the possibility of a God.

Neither have I.

I have not ruled out the possibility of gods, the tooth fairy, santa claus, the grinch or elves either.

monosharp

J C wrote: »

..just as well that you don't get upset by debate...because you keep 'getting the pants beaten off yourselves' every time you debate with Creation Scientists!!!

Oh look your back.

Going to answer any questions or just make some more smiley faces ? :pac::P:eek::(:mad::D

monosharp

J C wrote: »

...the forensics on the shroud are indicating that it was present in Jerusalem and originates at a much earlier date than the 1988 carbon dating has suggested.

Of course, it may not be the actual shroud of Jesus Christ .
However, if it is, then it would be a very important artefact as it would be a tangible link to the fact of Jesus Christ's resurrection (which is the very basis of Christianity).

Future forensics may reverse the latest conclusions again...but whatever happens ... the shroud is indeed a fascinating artefact.

What possible reason have you to think that if it is indeed the shroud of Jesus that it proves the resurrection ?

Does resurrection involve flash photography ? :P

monosharp

J C wrote: »

...which dates the shroud at between 1300 and 3,000 years old!!!:D

You don't believe in radiocarbon dating remember ? :pac::P:rolleyes::D

J C

monosharp wrote: »

Oh look your back.

Going to answer any questions or just make some more smiley faces ? :pac::P:eek::(:mad::D

..I never went away!!!

...and you don't seem to be immune from using smileys YOURSELF!!!

J C

monosharp wrote: »

What possible reason have you to think that if it is indeed the shroud of Jesus that it proves the resurrection ?

Does resurrection involve flash photography ? :P

..WHERE did I say that it PROVES the resurrection?

...the resurrection didn't involve 'flash photography' ... and the Bible is silent on details of the shroud ... so I have an open mind on this artefact.

If it is a forgery, it certainly was a very elaborate one, and that in itself, is a quite fascinating hypothesis.

monosharp

J C wrote: »

..WHERE did I say that it PROVES the resurrection?

I didn't say you said it proves the resurrection, I said;

monosharp wrote:

What possible reason have you to think that if it is indeed the shroud of Jesus that it proves the resurrection ?

in response to;

However, if it is, then it would be a very important artefact as it would be a tangible link to the fact of Jesus Christ's resurrection

Your inferring that if this cloth was indeed used on Jesus that it proves his resurrection.

...the resurrection didn't involve 'flash photography' ... and the Bible is silent on details of the shroud ... so I have an open mind on this artefact.

How do you know ?

If it is a forgery, it certainly was a very elaborate one, and that in itself, is a quite fascinating hypothesis.

I love the way you use scientific terms like you know what they mean. :pac::eek::(:mad::P:cool::rolleyes:

Are you going to answer my radiocarbon dating query or ignore it ?

Mark Hamill

man of faith wrote: »

I'm glad to hear that you have not ruled out the possibility of a God.

I dont think any atheist here has completely ruled out the possibility of god existing, its just the plausibility of your god existing is, in our eyes, no bigger than the plausibility of any other god man can come up with (Allah, Zeus, Odin etc). existing. Since I'm sure you agree that those other gods dont exist, you must see why we discount your idea of god too.

Sam Vimes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont think any atheist here has completely ruled out the possibility of god existing, its just the plausibility of your god existing is, in our eyes, no bigger than the plausibility of any other god man can come up with (Allah, Zeus, Odin etc). existing. Since I'm sure you agree that those other gods dont exist, you must see why we discount your idea of god too.

The more I talk to believers the more I get the impression that an awful lot of them have wrestled with the question of whether or not god exists but once they reached the conclusion that he does, accepting the religion that they were brought up in was more or less a given. Once you accept the existence of the supernatural it becomes very easy to accept that resurrection could have taken place but I don't think much consideration is generally given to the fact that it makes the supernatural claims of every religion and superstition in the world just as likely to be true, effectively making it impossible to dispassionately and rationally pick one. Even the small number of people who switch religions tend to do so because another religion "feels right" to them or more closely fits their own world view rather than because the evidence supporting their claims are objectively more convincing. None of them have any proof.

Looking at it objectively the religion that seems to lead to the best life or that has the best moral rules or that is the most comforting etc is all irrelevant, the only thing that matters is which one is actually divinely inspired and which ones are the inventions of man and it's undeniable that at most one branch of one religion has it right meaning that no matter what you you look at it, the vast majority of the world's population has got it wrong. Also threats of punishment for non-belief should only be considered to count against a religion because something that is objectively convincing (and especially something inspired by an all loving all powerful deity) shouldn't need to appeal to fear to try to ensure belief.

Christianity might well have some great moral rules and following the christian lifestyle might well mean you live a happy life and I think it does once certain aspects are taken out but that doesn't mean their claims of divinity are true. But in terms of morality I don't think it particularly matters if the claims of divinity aren't true, I follow rules like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" in my daily life because they make sense, not because of a call to the authority of who is supposed to have said them, especially since Jesus is just one of many people from many religions and secular philosophies who is supposed to have said that particular phrase

wolfsbane

Wicknight wrote: »

There is no evidence of this, he is just popping it in with a fancy word and hopping no one notices because his later points rely on it. There is no evidence that any genetic information is teleonomic information (goal orientated information).


That is because this is the only supported conclusion.


No it isn't because there is no model in biology that explains teleonomic information in DNA. "God did it" is not a scientific model

You can't just say that DNA has purpose and is goal orientated and they make a bunch of conclusions based on that assumption.


That is a complete lie, this has been observed many times.



Again that is a lie.

Seriously Wolfsbane what is the point of posting this? Did you actually read it yourself? You know these claims have been refuted many many times before, you know no one here is going to take this seriously because it is just a bare faced lie.

What is the point?

The point is: whenever I apply my mind to check through the evolutionist rebuttals, I do not find these claims have been refuted many many times before, just that they have had many many attempts against them. Some better than others; none conclusive. Not that that proves the evolutionist's case conclusively wrong - for both sides have indicators that appear to support their case and others that appear to refute it.

To say the case has been made so clearly, that it is beyond debate - that is the nearest to a lie I have found in all this.

But to be a lie, it has to be deliberate, not just delusional or wishful thinking - so I'm really not imputing any dishonesty to you guys.

Sam Vimes

wolfsbane wrote: »

The point is: whenever I apply my mind to check through the evolutionist rebuttals, I do not find these claims have been refuted many many times before, just that they have had many many attempts against them.

Put simply wolfsbane, that's because you are expecting rebuttals to questions asked by people who do not understand evolution. Someone trying to defend gravity will not be able to provide evidence of proteins spontaneously forming either but that's because no one has ever claimed that gravity causes proteins to spontaneously form and neither have any evolutionists.

wolfsbane wrote: »

But to be a lie, it has to be deliberate, not just delusional or wishful thinking - so I'm really not imputing any dishonesty to you guys.

I don't doubt your sincerity for a minute but the top creationists could not but be lying, We know of many "mutations giving such an increase in functional complexity" and the top creationists know this, they have been presented with the evidence. They just keep saying they haven't so they can convince people like yourself.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

The point is: whenever I apply my mind to check through the evolutionist rebuttals, I do not find these claims have been refuted many many times before, just that they have had many many attempts against them.

What does that have to do with the article you posted?

As for seeing refuted, your mind has to be open which it clearly isn't given how many times you have repeated Creationist arguments that have been demonstrated to be false or lies (such as this article).

Given that you believe your mind itself has been touched by God though it is hardly surprising your mind is closed to alternatives to Creationism.

wolfsbane wrote: »

To say the case has been made so clearly, that it is beyond debate - that is the nearest to a lie I have found in all this.

Well I prefer to stick to the actual lies, things that can be demonstrated false, that Creationist continue to present.

You should watch this video by Ken Miller. A bit long, but worth it. Not only does he show strong evidence for evolution, such as intermediate fossils of land to water mammal ear development and the fusion of chromosomes in humans, he also takes apart the ID argument of irreducible complexity and demonstrates how the judge (a conservative Christian Republican) concluded that Creationists were lying during the Dover trial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

wolfsbane wrote: »

But to be a lie, it has to be deliberate, not just delusional or wishful thinking - so I'm really not imputing any dishonesty to you guys.

Well I'm happy to impute dishonesty with that article you posted. Whether you knew it was a lie or not I'm not sure, if you automatically think that anything we tell you is untrue you will naturally not believe us when we point out the errors in some argument, so if you repeat the same argument again it is difficult to tell if you are lying or if you just refuse to accept that it is wrong.

Morbert

J C wrote: »

...please do tell us why somebody would be afraid of forgiveness and eternal paradise????

That post makes no sense.

monosharp

Morbert wrote: »

That post makes no sense.

Well ... JC wrote it, what were you expecting ? :pac:

man of faith

I'm sure you have all heard about mark of the beast 666 and the one world governement talked about in Revelation. For the mark to be introduced, we need to have a one world government system.

And one world gov has finally arrived. The mark, is already being tested all throughout the world and will be ready to use in place of cash very soon. All the technology has been installed everywhere. The powers that be have orchestrated the global economic crash for a very specific reason - NEW WORLD ORDER. World domination by the banking cartels - Rothschilds and Rockafellas to name a few. Watch the following if freedom means something to you. THIS IS HIGH PRIORITY AND ABSOLUTELY URGENT TO WATCH!!!! THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMe5dOgbu40

The fall of the great American Republic, courtesy of Barack Obama.

also check out www.infowars.com

toiletduck

Probably better suited to the CT forum

Patrickof

man of faith wrote: »

I'm sure you have all heard about mark of the beast 666 and the one world governement talked about in Revelation. For the mark to be introduced, we need to have a one world government system.

And one world gov has finally arrived. The mark, is already being tested all throughout the world and will be ready to use in place of cash very soon. All the technology has been installed everywhere. The powers that be have orchestrated the global economic crash for a very specific reason - NEW WORLD ORDER. World domination by the banking cartels - Rothschilds and Rockafellas to name a few. Watch the following if freedom means something to you. THIS IS HIGH PRIORITY AND ABSOLUTELY URGENT TO WATCH!!!! THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMe5dOgbu40

The fall of the great American Republic, courtesy of Barack Obama.

also check out www.infowars.com

Are you a former member of a mostly female Irish band by any chance?

Oh yeah, and the '666' is wrong, it's actually '616'

man of faith

not conspiracy my friend, absolute fact and reality. watch the youtube link if you do not believe me

man of faith

Patrickof wrote: »

Are you a former member of a mostly female Irish band by any chance?

Oh yeah, and the '666' is wrong, it's actually '616'

If sarcasm's all you got, then I repeat - PLEASE WATCH THE YOUTUBE LINK. I'm sure your sarcasm will dissapear very quickly.
This is serious.

monosharp

man of faith wrote: »

I'm sure you have all heard about mark of the beast 666 and the one world governement talked about in Revelation. For the mark to be introduced, we need to have a one world government system.

Ah so thats what the Lisbon vote was about.

THIS IS HIGH PRIORITY AND ABSOLUTELY URGENT TO WATCH!!!! THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS!!

Its also conspiracy rubbish.

The fall of the great American Republic, courtesy of Barack Obama.

Good, its China's turn isn't it ?

monosharp

man of faith wrote: »

not conspiracy my friend, absolute fact and reality. watch the youtube link if you do not believe me

WOW, look what I found.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7FcvEydqg

Its the flying Spaghetti Monster on youtube, it must be absolute fact!

monosharp

Ok man of faith, I watched your video now will you watch mine ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

man of faith

Kinda long LOL - I've watched the first 3 mins and already very interested. Thankyou Monosharp

Zombrex

man of faith wrote: »

I'm sure you have all heard about mark of the beast 666 and the one world governement talked about in Revelation. For the mark to be introduced, we need to have a one world government system.

And one world gov has finally arrived. The mark, is already being tested all throughout the world and will be ready to use in place of cash very soon. All the technology has been installed everywhere. The powers that be have orchestrated the global economic crash for a very specific reason - NEW WORLD ORDER. World domination by the banking cartels - Rothschilds and Rockafellas to name a few. Watch the following if freedom means something to you. THIS IS HIGH PRIORITY AND ABSOLUTELY URGENT TO WATCH!!!! THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMe5dOgbu40

The fall of the great American Republic, courtesy of Barack Obama.

also check out www.infowars.com

Isn't that all supposed to be good if you are a Christian?

Turtwig

man of faith wrote: »

I'm sure you have all heard about mark of the beast 666 and the one world governement talked about in Revelation. For the mark to be introduced, we need to have a one world government system.

And one world gov has finally arrived. The mark, is already being tested all throughout the world and will be ready to use in place of cash very soon. All the technology has been installed everywhere. The powers that be have orchestrated the global economic crash for a very specific reason - NEW WORLD ORDER. World domination by the banking cartels - Rothschilds and Rockafellas to name a few. Watch the following if freedom means something to you. THIS IS HIGH PRIORITY AND ABSOLUTELY URGENT TO WATCH!!!! THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMe5dOgbu40

The fall of the great American Republic, courtesy of Barack Obama.

also check out www.infowars.com

Is that not what the gospel preaches - the kingdom of God? I was told at a young age that kingdom meant governance, we would be all united under one God and one government..so isn't one government under God what a Christian would want???

Feel free to correct me about my point about the Gospel, folks, as I heard it a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonggggggggggtime ago:) about the same time I believed that sleeping with wet hair caused pneumonia. So I'm taking my own point with a pinch of salt.

man of faith

Oh, and while I'm watching my 2 hour long EV VS ID video, I thought I would also throw you another debunking challenge just to keep you on your toes:

Genesis 17:9-12 (google it) written somewhere between 1450 - 1410 BC, tells us of the Abrahamic Covenant to be marked with circumcision of every male 8 days after birth Keep in mind that this covenant was to establish God's promise to provide eternal life for every born again believer (the seed of Abraham), as Abraham was mans spokesperson and father in this agreement which was sealed with God's very own blood 2009 years ago.

Now here is some medical scientific fact to consider in relation to this passage of scripture. Due to a recent discovery, we now know that Vitamin K is necessary for blood clotting. A newly born human is at severe risk of haemorrage from day one as they are born with insufficient levels of vitamin k necessary for blood clotting. Vitamin K is responsible for the production of prothrombin. Vitamin K and prothrombin combine to form blood coagulation which is essential for surgical procedure. This is why we now inject new borns with vitamin k from day one to prevent the risk of them bleeding to death.

On the 8th day of a new born's life, the levels of prothrombin are elevated above 100 percent of normal. This one day is the perfect and most safest day for surgery.

Just another coincidence? I seriously beg to differ
Abraham did not pick the eighth day after many centuries of trial-and-error experiments. Neither he nor any of his company from the ancient city of Ur in the Chaldees ever had been circumcised. It was a day picked by the Creator of vitamin K.

Moses' (the author of Genesis) information, was not only scientifically accurate, but was 3500 years ahead of its time!!! How on earth could he have known this? Here is the perfect answer for you written by the Apostle Paul: 2 Timothy 3:16 'All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.'

Flamed Diving

Borring.

PDN? Can we have JC back pleassse?

Zombrex

man of faith wrote: »

Moses' (the author of Genesis) information, was not only scientifically accurate, but was 3500 years ahead of its time!!! How on earth could he have known this?

You haven't show they did know this? Where does the Bible mention Vit K?