The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

equivariant

liamw wrote: »

I don't see what this is going to achieve. Anybody could post anything here. I think it's best to just continue the discussion without assuming anyone is an expert in anything and just argue their points.

Well any discussion on an internet forum about these topics is (unfortunately) going to involve some use of argument from authority and of quoting of other sources. For these reasons it is interesting to know exactly how much authority an individual claims in a given topic. Of course, there is no way to check. However, if someone claims to be qualified in some technical discipline and then makes absolutely elementary errors, this dichotomy should be pointed out.

equivariant

J C wrote: »

...like what?

Most significantly, your claim that 'CSI' is a useful and well defined concept is something that any 'qualified mathematician' would know is just not true.

J C

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The term "creation scientist" is synonymous with incompetence and sacking someone for incompetence is not discrimination.

'...your statement is crass advocacy of discrimination.

If you doubt me just replace the words "Creation Scientist" with any other minority that has been discriminated against ... try "Ortodox Jew" or "Homosexual" or "African American" or "Roman Catholic" or "Woman" or "Irish Person" or "Evolutionist" and see what I mean!!!!

Sam Vimes wrote: »

So can you apply the mathematics of CSI to those strings please and tell me which is simplicity, which is non-specified complexity and which is complexity, showing your work please?

...the first test is that it is functional language ... once this is established the CSI content can be established by the formula Log 2(a^n) where n is the number of characters in the sentence/string and a is the number of possible characters at each point on the string/sentence.
For example, the CSI content of the 46 character string/statement "J C is not really a professional mathematician" has a CSI content of 263.48 ... which is approaching mathematical certainty that it was intelligently generated!!!!!:eek::D

Sam Vimes wrote: »

There are four institutions that are called National Universities of Ireland. Which one?

...no comment ... you know enough from this to recognise that my qualifications are conventionally conferred qualifications.

Sam Vimes wrote:

I was pointing out that he said he got his qualification from "The National University of Ireland" but there is no university by that name. I for example got my degree from The National University of Ireland Maynooth

...no such conferring University exists!!!
...have a look at your degree parchments and you will find that Maynooth is a constituent university/college of The National University of Ireland ... or as it was more formally known Universitas Hiberniae Nationalis !!!

Section 47(5) of the Universities Act 1997 provides that 'the degrees and other qualifications awarded by the Constituent Universities are Degrees and qualifications of the National University of Ireland and shall be so designated'. Accordingly, NUI Degrees and other qualifications are awarded by the four NUI constituent universities to students who have completed courses of study and passed the relevant examinations of the Constituent Universities or who have completed programmes of research. NUI awards degrees and other qualifications in the Recognised Colleges.
... and you can read about it here:-
http://www.nui.ie/college/qualifications.asp

equivariant

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I was pointing out that he said he got his qualification from "The National University of Ireland" but there is no university by that name. I for example got my degree from The National University of Ireland Maynooth

Well, as of right now the National University of Ireland does exist as an entity and degree awarding authority in its own right - independently of any of its former colleges. However, the government is about to abolish that organisation. However that has no bearing on the validity of anyones degree. Also JCs degree may have been awarded before 1995, and in that case would have been awarded by the National University of Ireland, regardless of which of the colleges he studied in

equivariant

J C wrote: »

...the first test is that it is functional language

And how pray tell is that established? Do you even know what "a functional language" means?

Can you apply your test to the following strings of numbers?

3141529

11111111111100000000111111111111111111111111111000000000000000000000000000011111

Sam Vimes

J C wrote: »

'...your statement is crass advocacy of discrimination.

If you doubt me just replace the words "Creation Scientist" with any other minority that has been discriminated against ... try "Ortodox Jew" or "Homosexual" or "African American" or "Roman Catholic" or "Woman" or "Irish Person" or "Evolutionist" and see what I mean!!!!

How about Nazi? Were they discriminated against by the allies? Or how about Steorn who claimed to be able to produce free energy but, much like creation scientists, have not produced the slightest shred of evidence to support their claim?

Lots of groups are ridiculed due to discrimination but that does not mean that everyone who is ridiculed is being discriminated against. Sometimes it's because what they're saying is ridiculous

J C wrote: »

...the first test is that it is functional language ... once this is established the CSI content can be established by the fomula 53x53x53...n converted to a Log2 where n is the number of characters in the sentence.
For example, the CSI content of the statement "J C is not really a professional mathematician" This 46 character string has a CSI content of 263.48 ... which is approaching mathematical certainty that it was intelligently generated!!!!!

So what you're saying is that the first step is to decide whether or not it's functional and therefore contains CSI and once you have established that you do the maths? That's called a circular argument mate. The mathematics of CSI is supposed to be a reliable indicator of design but if you have to know in advance whether it's designed or not to do the maths then it's a reliable indicator of nothing. So please apply the maths to those strings to determine if they contain CSI and how much (include units).

J C wrote: »

...no comment ... you know enough from this to recognise that my quaifications are conventionally conferred qualifications.

What it indicates to me is that you quite possibly mistakenly thought there was an institution by that name and claimed to have got a degree from it

Sam Vimes

J C wrote: »

...no such conferring University exists!!!
...have a look at your degree parchments and you will find that Maynooth is a constituent college of The National University of Ireland ... or as it was more formally known Universitas Hiberniae Nationalis !!!:)

...I sometimes wonder ... when somebody spends years earning a degree ... and then doesen't even know what university actually conferred the degree on them!!!

...people who draw a distinction between 'education' and 'common sense' just might have a point!!!!

The institution is called the National University of Ireland Maynooth, which is why their website is www.nuim.ie and why it says National University of Ireland Maynooth at the top of the page

token56

J C wrote: »

If you doubt me just replace the words "Creation Scientist" with any other minority that has been discriminated against ... try "Ortodox Jew" or "Homosexual" or "African American" or "Roman Catholic" or "Woman" or "Irish Person" or "Evolutionist" and see what I mean!!!!

Creation science is a particular discipline with its own rules and rigors, a completely different one from conventional science which also has its own rules and rigors. To say a creation sciencist is discriminated against by conventional science is just not true because they are two completely indepedant disciplines.

equivariant

J C wrote: »

...no such conferring University exists!!!
...have a look at your degree parchments and you will find that Maynooth is a constituent college of The National University of Ireland ... or as it was more formally known Universitas Hiberniae Nationalis !!!:)

...I sometimes wonder ... when somebody spends years earning a degree ... and then doesen't even know what university actually conferred the degree on them!!!

...people who draw a distinction between 'education' and 'common sense' just might have a point!!!!

Actually J C, that depends on whether or not the person graduated before 1997. Up until then Maynooth was a college of the NUI, after that point the Universities Act of 1997 granted independent university status to all of the former colleges. This change is reflected in the parchments awarded at conferral, so Sam's degree could well say National University of Ireland Maynooth.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Ireland

I could be mean and imply that this is yet another indication of your unwillingness to actually check the facts, but that would probably be unfair, wouldn't it?

Sam Vimes

equivariant wrote: »

Well, as of right now the National University of Ireland does exist as an entity and degree awarding authority in its own right - independently of any of its former colleges. However, the government is about to abolish that organisation. However that has no bearing on the validity of anyones degree. Also JCs degree may have been awarded before 1995, and in that case would have been awarded by the National University of Ireland, regardless of which of the colleges he studied in

You could be right and it's entirely possible that J C does have a degree, even one from one of the NUIs although if it was in any of the sciences I'd be very surprised. I'd also be surprised if it was in english since they don't teach leading and trailing dots, random capitalisation, lots of exclamation marks and smilies in english degrees

J C

equivariant wrote: »

And how pray tell is that established? Do you even know what "a functional language" means?

... with living organisms functionality is easily established ... with written code it can be somewhat more difficult.

equivariant wrote: »

Can you apply your test to the following strings of numbers?

3141529

11111111111100000000111111111111111111111111111000000000000000000000000000011111

..I have already given you the formula for CSI ... so for your homework ... go figure!!:D

J C

equivariant wrote: »

Actually J C, that depends on whether or not the person graduated before 1997. Up until then Maynooth was a college of the NUI, after that point the Universities Act of 1997 granted independent university status to all of the former colleges. This change is reflected in the parchments awarded at conferral, so Sam's degree could well say National University of Ireland Maynooth.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Ireland

I could be mean and imply that this is yet another indication of your unwillingness to actually check the facts, but that would probably be unfair, wouldn't it?

...go check YOUR facts at the above Wiki link where it says "The constituent universities are for all essential purposes independent universities, except that the degrees and diplomas are those of the National University of Ireland with its seat in Dublin".:eek::):D

Like I have said my conferring University is the NUI ... Sam doesn't exactly know WHO conferred his degree ... just like he also doesn't exactly know WHY he believes that he is descended from Pondslime !!!

If you want precision and the whole truth consult a Creation Scientist ... if you want 'more heat than light' ... consult an Evolutionist!!!:D

Morbert

J C wrote: »

...like what?

"I have been quite rigorous in my maths. I just don't get involved in the arcane and irrelevant musings of Theoretical Maths"

J C

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The institution is called the National University of Ireland Maynooth, which is why their website is www.nuim.ie and why it says National University of Ireland Maynooth at the top of the page

...the Institution you attended may well have been NUIM ... but your degree, assuming you were actually awarded a degree, was awarded by the NUI.

Fanny Cradock

I may have missed something here. Have you told us what your qualification(s) are in?

Sam Vimes

J C wrote: »

...go check YOUR facts at the above Wiki link where it says "The constituent universities are for all essential purposes independent universities, except that the degrees and diplomas are those of the National University of Ireland with its seat in Dublin".:eek::):D

Like I have said my conferring University is the NUI ... Sam doesn't exactly know WHO conferred his degree ... just like he also doesn't exactly know WHY he believes that he is descended from Pondslime !!!

If you want precision and the whole truth consult a Creation Scientist ... if you want 'more heat than light' ... consult an Evolutionist!!!:D

Your whole point was to say that Maynooth is one of the constituent colleges of the NUI. It's not

J C

Morbert wrote: »

"I have been quite rigorous in my maths. I just don't get involved in the arcane and irrelevant musings of Theoretical Maths"

...so you are 'copping out' ... and you are unable to substantiate your allegation that any of maths is invalid!!!!!:(:)

...when you are in a hole stop digging ... and when there are up to 20 of you digging furiously ... and little old me on top, throwing most of your excavated material back in on top of you ... I would respectfully suggest that you STOP DIGGING!!!!:):D

...but then again you may be a bunch of masochists who enjoy being acutely embarassed !!!:):D

Sam Vimes

J C wrote: »

..I have already given you the formula for CSI ... so for your homework ... go figure!!:D

You've just told us that the first step before using the maths of CSI to determine design is to establish design, making the whole thing circular. If you can't determine whether any of the strings I gave you are designed using the maths what's the point of CSI?

Fanny Cradock

JC, even though we are at different ends of this debate, I admire your fighting spirit.

equivariant

J C wrote: »

...go check YOUR facts at the above Wiki link where it says "The constituent universities are for all essential purposes independent universities, except that the degrees and diplomas are those of the National University of Ireland with its seat in Dublin".:eek::):D

Like I have said my conferring University is the NUI ... Sam doesn't exactly know WHO conferred his degree ... just like he also doesn't exactly know WHY he believes that he is descended from Pondslime !!!

If you want precision and the whole truth consult a Creation Scientist ... if you want 'more heat than light' ... consult an Evolutionist!!!:D

I never claimed that degrees were not awarded by the NUI. I merely pointed out that your statement "Maynooth is a constituent college of The National University of Ireland " was false and that this is reflected in the parchments handed out to graduates.

By the way, the emphasis on the word college was yours, not mine

J C

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Your whole point was to say that Maynooth is one of the constituent colleges of the NUI. It's not

...my whole point was that I hold my quaifications from the National University of Ireland.

...you guys made a big fuss about this detail ... and then promptly 'fell flat on your face' when your 'nit picking' was examined!!!!

...just like what happens when your claims about evolution are also closely examined!!!!

BTW the status of Maynooth is a constituent university/college of the NUI ... and NOT a conferring university in its own right!!!

....Sam stop embarassing yourself!!!

... go check your degree, if you have one ... and if you don't, stop assuming that other people also don't!!!!:D

J C

equivariant wrote: »

I never claimed that degrees were not awarded by the NUI. I merely pointed out that your statement "Maynooth is a constituent college of The National University of Ireland " was false and that this is reflected in the parchments handed out to graduates.

By the way, the emphasis on the word college was yours, not mine

...it was a constituent college up to 1997 and a constituent university thereafter.

Stop digging!!!!:D

Sam Vimes

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

JC, even though we are at different ends of this debate, I admire your fighting spirit.

I really don't. Assuming he's not just trolling, which is a distinct possibility, his antics show just how people are capable of twisting themselves up into believing anything when they think they've got god on their side. This danger is most clearly visible with religious morality because it's not based on reason, it's just an argument from authority. It doesn't matter if you think something is wrong or if there is no actual reason for thinking something is wrong (eg homosexuality), what god says goes, whether he really said it or you're mistaking the ancient superstitions of primitives for the word of god

equivariant

J C wrote: »

... with living organisms functionality is easily established ... with written code it can be somewhat more difficult.

Indeed it can be somewhat difficult - that is because no such test exists (again, 'CSI' is nonsense).

..I have already given you the formula for CSI ... so for your homework ... go figure!!:D

I didn't ask about your gobbledygook 'formula'.

J C

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

JC, even though we are at different ends of this debate, I admire your fighting spirit.

...I always try to establish the TRUTH on all matters.
We shouldn't be at different ends of this debate ... as we are both Christians.

Sam Vimes

J C wrote: »

Stop digging!!!!:D

Indeed

J C

equivariant wrote: »

Indeed it can be somewhat difficult - that is because no such test exists (again, 'CSI' is nonsense).



I didn't ask about your gobbledygook 'formula'.

....Evolutionists these days ... so demanding ... and so WRONG!!!!:D

J C

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Indeed

...does this mean that you have checked your parchment and are taking my advice to stop digging????

equivariant

J C wrote: »

...my whole point was that I hold my quaifications from the National University of Ireland.

...you guys made a big fuss about this detail ... and then promptly 'fell flat on your face' when your 'nit picking' was examined!!!!

I did not make a fuss and accepted that you have an NUI degree as soon as you claimed it. However, you on the other hand, have used this "detail" to avoid answering my question as to how much mathematics this degree actually contained. Well?

J C

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I really don't. Assuming he's not just trolling, which is a distinct possibility, his antics show just how people are capable of twisting themselves up into believing anything when they think they've got god on their side. This danger is most clearly visible with religious morality because it's not based on reason, it's just an argument from authority. It doesn't matter if you think something is wrong or if there is no actual reason for thinking something is wrong (eg homosexuality), what god says goes, whether he really said it or you're mistaking the ancient superstitions of primitives for the word of god

...you're the guy who doesn't even know which University conferred you with your degree!!!!

... like I said ... stop digging!!!!:D