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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)
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...all I will say to that is 'if the cap fits ... wear it'!!!:)
The New World Order Religion' is currently at a very advanced stage of formation and it is planned to include practically all religions (including Humanists and the 'New Age') ... as well as many Evolutionists of course!!!
Creationists and Bible-believing Christians are not invited to the 'party' ... and I must say ... that they wouldn't join in ... even if they were invited !!!
http://interfaithorganisations.net/2009/11/09/religions-vow-a-new-alliance-for-conservation/
http://www.worldprayer.net/worldprayer-sharedreading.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrz55xh7cXI&feature=related
I noted that "Pope John Paul and the other leaders who spoke at the morning session in Assisi repeatedly underlined the need for justice and respect for human rights in building peace. "It cannot be forgotten that situations of oppression and exclusion are often at the source of violence and terrorism," he said.
... so here is the first 'acid test' ... on respecting the Human Rights of Saved Christians and their children by respecting their worldview ... and delivering justice to Christian teachers in America by not sacking them for merely mentioning the dreaded ID word in science class!!!
... or does Human Rights and justice not extend to Saved Christians?
It is not a "human right" to have schools indoctrinate your children with your own beliefs. No more than it was a "human right" for nazis to indoctrinate their children with their views. We all make choices about where and how our children are to be educated. Please spare us the whole "this violates my human rights" crap.
No doubt, you will be happy to reap the benefits of real science when it comes to looking after your kids health, so its a bit disingenuous to start blathering on about how scientists are impinging on your "human rights", by refusing to indoctrinate your children with unscientific creationist blather.0 -
...all I will say to that is 'if the cap fits ... wear it'!!!:)
Which is saying that all people who don't agree with your opinion are not Christian!
not alone that they are the "fellow travellers" of atheists and believe ion what the atheists believe. It is patent nonsense!The New World Order Religion' is currently at a very advanced stage of formation and it is planned to include practically all religions (including Humanists and the 'New Age') ... as well as many Evolutionists of course!!!
This is unsupported conspiracy theory. The idea that atheists Christians Islam Bhuddism Hinduism Pagans agree on every aspect of faith is purely nonsense! Mind you there is perhaps one thing they might agree on - that Biblical creationism as preached by your position is a crackpot notion.Creationists and Bible-believing Christians are not invited to the 'party' ... and I must say ... that they wouldn't join in ... even if they were invited !!!
Well you would be wrong there as i have pointed out the vastmajority of christians are roman Catholic Orthodox and Anglicans. WE are talkint about 80 per cent plus there about 1500 million to 2 billion Christians. They believe in one God creator of heaven and Earth of all that is, seen and unseen. They also accept that science can measure the Earth at thousands of millions of years old. You have no authority to say they are not Christians. they trace their tradition back in an unbroken line to Christ himself and to a time even before the New Testament was written!http://interfaithorganisations.net/2009/11/09/religions-vow-a-new-alliance-for-conservation/
http://www.worldprayer.net/worldprayer-sharedreading.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrz55xh7cXI&feature=related
I noted that "Pope John Paul and the other leaders who spoke at the morning session in Assisi repeatedly underlined the need for justice and respect for human rights in building peace. "It cannot be forgotten that situations of oppression and exclusion are often at the source of violence and terrorism," he said.
... so here is the first 'acid test' ... on respecting the Human Rights of Saved Christians and their children by respecting their worldview ... and delivering justice to Christian teachers in America by not sacking them for merely mentioning the dreaded ID word in science class!!!
... or does Human Rights and justice not extend to Saved Christians?
Crackpots are not oppressed or excluded. they have a right to say what they want. they just don't have a right to an audience. Whether the crackpot be flying Spaghetti Monster aliens ate my babysitter or Biblical Creationists they have NO RIGHT to take over public determined curricula. If they want they can preach whatever they like elsewhere and ask people to pay for it out of their own pocket.
Even in Ireland - the most Christian country in the world- the State is not constitutionally bound to the church, although Christian Schools are supported by the State just as Islamic and non religious ones are.0 -
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...Firstly, authority must be exercised with responsibility and due care ... but if 'push comes to shove' and a child is behaving uncontrollably and has ignored all warnings and verbal requests, then appropriate physical restraint may have to be administered ... and, in general the person best suited to do this is a parent.Genghiz Cohen wrote: »Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod sceptre, he shall not die.
-- Proverbs 23:13
The pseudo-liberals berate parents who don't control their children and increasingly parents are being held liable in law for the actions of their children ... yet if a parent physically chastises their child, when all else has failed, the same pseudo-liberals 'jump up and down' about the parent smacking the child!!!
Schools can expel a student for bad behaviour and they therefore don't have to resort to physical restraint ... in extremis they can walk away and leave it to the police and/or the parents.
Parental authority is no different to any other authority. For example, the police have a responsibility to uphold the law and they are allowed to use reasonable force to do so. That is why every uniformed policeperson carries a baton and has full authority to use it when all else fails!!!!
Parents do not have to resort to physical discipline, when reasonable boundaries are set and obeyed by their children ... but, just like the police, parents must be able to meet force with force, if children decide to use their free will to become a danger to themselves or others.
As a Christian parent of Christian children, I am lucky that I haven't had to resort to physical chastisement ... but I can see why it is hypocritical of society to blame Unsaved parents when their children are up to all kinds of anti-social behaviour ... while simultaneously blaming other parents who resort to (reasonable) physical restraint to curb such anti-social behaviour in their children ... when they have ignored all parental warnings to desist.:)0 -
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...I have no authority to judge the eternal destiny of anybody ... and I accept their own description of their beliefs ... so if somebody says that they are a Saved Christian, I believe them.Which is saying that all people who don't agree with your opinion are not Christian!
not alone that they are the "fellow travellers" of atheists and believe ion what the atheists believe. It is patent nonsense!
Could I also point out that somebody is a 'fellow traveller' of somebody else whom the support on the issue on which they support them ... so, if the mainstream churches support Materialistic accounts of Evolution ... then on this issue, which is of central importance to Atheists, they are their 'fellow travellers'.
... representatives of all of the major religions of the world met in Assisi and at the Millenium Summit of the UN in public and committed themselves to progressing towards a common futureThis is unsupported conspiracy theory. The idea that atheists Christians Islam Bhuddism Hinduism Pagans agree on every aspect of faith is purely nonsense! Mind you there is perhaps one thing they might agree on - that Biblical creationism as preached by your position is a crackpot notion.
... so it is no conspiracy theory!!!
... here is a BBC report on the Assisi meeting...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1663138.stm
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/januaryweb-only/1-28-13.0.html
...where have I said they are not Christians?Well you would be wrong there as i have pointed out the vastmajority of christians are roman Catholic Orthodox and Anglicans. WE are talkint about 80 per cent plus there about 1500 million to 2 billion Christians. They believe in one God creator of heaven and Earth of all that is, seen and unseen. They also accept that science can measure the Earth at thousands of millions of years old. You have no authority to say they are not Christians. they trace their tradition back in an unbroken line to Christ himself and to a time even before the New Testament was written!
You are the one without authority to say that they are not Creationists!!!!
I keep telling you that the mainstream Christian Churches are all officially Creationist churches with Creationist Creeds, like you have confirmed above in your own quote!!!
...although one wonders what mental contortions are required to proudly pronounce a belief in God as 'Creator of Heaven and Earth' ... while simultaneously believing that you are a product of the interaction of random chemistry and environmental selection operating on Pondslime over inordinate amounts of time!!!
Equally, I know many Roman Catholics who are Saved Christians ... who remain within Roman Catholocism as witnesses to their fellow Roman Catholics
... your Pope didn't refer to anybody as 'crackpots' during the Assisi Gatherings ... and it was reported that "Pope John Paul and the other leaders who spoke at the morning session in Assisi repeatedly underlined the need for justice and respect for human rights in building peace."Crackpots are not oppressed or excluded. they have a right to say what they want. they just don't have a right to an audience. Whether the crackpot be flying Spaghetti Monster aliens ate my babysitter or Biblical Creationists they have NO RIGHT to take over public determined curricula. If they want they can preach whatever they like elsewhere and ask people to pay for it out of their own pocket.
Sounds like you should start by extending your love towards Saved Christians ... or at the very least, you should ask yourself why you hold them in such derision. ... when their faith position is one of Orthodox Christianity ... and their scientists include some of the most eminent members of their chosen professions.
... and that is how it should be ... with every person being accorded full respect for their beliefs ... especially the ones you disagreee with!!!:)Even in Ireland - the most Christian country in the world- the State is not constitutionally bound to the church, although Christian Schools are supported by the State just as Islamic and non religious ones are.
I disagree with many of the unfounded beliefs that Evolutionists hold ... but I fully respect their right to hold their beliefs and to transmit them to whoever will listen ... without any threat to their careers ... and all I ask is that the same courtesy is extended to Creationists.0 -
...Firstly, authority must be exercised with responsibility and due care ... but if 'push comes to shove' and a child is behaving uncontrollably and has ignored all warnings and verbal requests, then appropriate physical restraint may have to be administered ... and, in general the person best suited to do this is a parent.
The pseudo-liberals berate parents who don't control their children and increasingly parents are being held liable in law for the actions of their children ... yet if a parent physically chastises their child, when all else has failed, the same pseudo-liberals 'jump up and down' about the parent smacking the child!!!
Schools can expel a student for bad behaviour and they therefore don't have to resort to physical restraint ... in extremis they can walk away and leave this to the police and/or the parents.
Parental authority is no different to any other authority. For example, the police have a responsibility to uphold the law and they are allowed to use reasonable force to do so. That is why every policeperson carries a baton and will use it when all else fails!!!!
Parents do not have to resort to physical discipline, when reasonable boundaries are set and obeyed by their children ... but, just like the police, parents must be able to meet force with force, if children decide to use their free will to become a danger to themselves or others.
As a Christian parent of Christian children, I am lucky that I haven't had to resort to physical chastisement ... but I can see why it is hypocritical of society to blame Unsaved parents when their children are up to all kinds of anti-social behaviour ... while simultaneously blaming other parents who resort to (reasonable) physical restraint to curb such anti-social behaviour in their children ... when they have ignored all parental warnings to desist.:)
I am curious J C. What age are your children? I know this is personal information, so obviously you can feel free to ignore my inquiry.
The reason I ask is this. I wonder if you kids have gone through teenage rebellion yet? Have they come out other side?0 -
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...all I will say is that they are great children and I am very proud of how they have turned out ... but I give all of the credit to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.equivariant wrote: »I am curious J C. What age are your children? I know this is personal information, so obviously you can feel free to ignore my inquiry.
The reason I ask is this. I wonder if you kids have gone through teenage rebellion yet? Have they come out other side?0 -
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... I am a provider of real science when it comes to everybodys health and wellbeing ... so please spare me your unfounded patronising comments!!!equivariant wrote: »It is not a "human right" to have schools indoctrinate your children with your own beliefs. No more than it was a "human right" for nazis to indoctrinate their children with their views. We all make choices about where and how our children are to be educated. Please spare us the whole "this violates my human rights" crap.
No doubt, you will be happy to reap the benefits of real science when it comes to looking after your kids health, so its a bit disingenuous to start blathering on about how scientists are impinging on your "human rights", by refusing to indoctrinate your children with unscientific creationist blather.
I have made it clear that my children have had a broad liberal education, including Evolution in public schools ... all I am asking is that my worldview is respected ... and I would suggest that the weaknesses of Evolution should also be pointed out ... otherwise it is little more than propaganda!!!!
In fairness, I have personally found that my worldview has been respected in my interactions with other people ... and my children's worldview has also been respected.
However, I have an obvious concern going forward, for other Creationists, and indeed other minorities covered by equality legislation, because of the overt unchallenged advocacy of gross job discrimination evidenced on this thread.
The fact that it is happening on a Christianity Thread makes it even more perplexing ... I quite frankly would have expected more respect and understanding for my faith positon ... especially from fellow Christians.
Could I also say that Creation Scientists are not Nazis ... indeed many are Orthodox Jews ... so your analogy is particulary insensitive and insulting ...
... and I wouldn't 'go there' if I were an Evolutionist ... given the Nazi preoccupation with Evolution and their warped views on how to use science to 'help' the 'fittest' (in their minds) 'survive'.
My uncle laid his young life on the line to defeat fascism ... and to hunt down it worst perpetrators ... so spare me your dangerous and unfounded analogies!!!!0 -
... It was actually zero credit to myself as a parent (who would be powerless but for Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit)...And zero credit to your children? Bit harsh there JC
... I did say they were great children and I am very proud of them!!!
... and they would also be the first to admit the great blessings which Jesus Christ has given them in their lives.:)0 -
... Could I also say that Creation Scientists are not Nazis ... indeed many are Orthodox Jews ... so your analogy is particulary insensitive and insulting ...
... and I wouldn't 'go there' if I were an Evolutionist ... given the Nazi preoccupation with Evolution and their warped views on how to use science to 'help' the 'fittest' (in their minds) 'survive'.
My uncle laid his young life on the line to defeat fascism ... and to hunt down it worst perpetrators ... so spare me your dangerous and unfounded analogies!!!!
I did not draw an analogy between nazism and creationism. I mentioned nazism to point out that if we insist on a right to indoctrinate children with our own beliefs, we are following a very dangerous path. No doubt you wil blather own for pages now about how insulted you are to be compared to nazis. Please spare me your indignantly told stories about how your uncle fought fascism. I'm sure there are many people on this thread whose family members have fought wars - as far as I know, you have no particular claim on the battle against fascism. My grandfather fought in both world wars. Does that make me particularly qualified to comment on fascism/nazism? No it does not. What your uncle did or did not do has no bearing on whether your views expressed in this thread are valid or invalid.
If any mention of nazism offends you - what about this example? Is it a human right for islamic fundamentalists to indoctrinate their children with the belief that killing in the name of religion is right.
In reasonable societies, it is more and more considered inappropriate to make indoctrination part of the educational process. This is progress. It is a sign that biblical literalism/creationism and their ugly sibling religious fundamentalism are all dying out.0 -
... and I wouldn't 'go there' if I were an Evolutionist ... given the Nazi preoccupation with Evolution and their warped views on how to use science to 'help' the 'fittest' (in their minds) 'survive'.
Indeed, one thing that some nazis seem to share with many creationists is a complete misunderstanding of the biological evolutionary process. Now I really am comparing creationism to nazism, so feel free to be as offended as you like.0 -
equivariant wrote: »Indeed, one thing that some nazis seem to share with many creationists is a complete misunderstanding of the biological evolutionary process. Now I really am comparing creationism to nazism, so feel free to be as offended as you like.
Well, judging by his own writings, Hitler was a creationist.0 -
... You did draw the analogy between Creationism and Nazism ... and I'm glad that you have withdrawn it (in a mealy mouthed fashion).equivariant wrote: »I did not draw an analogy between nazism and creationism. I mentioned nazism to point out that if we insist on a right to indoctrinate children with our own beliefs, we are following a very dangerous path. No doubt you wil blather own for pages now about how insulted you are to be compared to nazis. Please spare me your indignantly told stories about how your uncle fought fascism. I'm sure there are many people on this thread whose family members have fought wars - as far as I know, you have no particular claim on the battle against fascism. My grandfather fought in both world wars. Does that make me particularly qualified to comment on fascism/nazism? No it does not. What your uncle did or did not do has no bearing on whether your views expressed in this thread are valid or invalid.
...and if members of my familly fought against Nazism on principle ... while you say that yours fought in two wars (presumably, because they liked war - or just didn't like the Germans), this may indeed make you unqualified to comment on Nazism (as you have admitted yourself above)!!!
...of course it's not a Human right to engage in 'hate mongering' ... and your analogy would be equally offensive to any Muslim Creation Scientists that I know !!!equivariant wrote: »If any mention of nazism offends you - what about this example? Is it a human right for islamic fundamentalists to indoctrinate their children with the belief that killing in the name of religion is right.
... I agree that indoctrination shouldn't be part of any liberal education process ...equivariant wrote: »In reasonable societies, it is more and more considered inappropriate to make indoctrination part of the educational process. This is progress. It is a sign that biblical literalism/creationism and their ugly sibling religious fundamentalism are all dying out.
... indoctrination is the presentation of only one view to the exclusion of all others ... so why do Evolutionists want to continue doing so in relation to Evolution as the only 'origins explanation' that is allowed ... even though there are scientifically valid alternatived like ID and Creation Science??0 -
...I wouldn't have 'gone there' if I were an Evolutionist ... but you have!!!The Mad Hatter wrote: »Well, judging by his own writings, Hitler was a creationist.
Sir Arthur Keith was a British anthropologist, an atheistic evolutionist and an anti-Nazi, but he drew this chilling conclusion:
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’
Reference
Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947
... of course, the fact that Hitler was an Evolutionist doesn't mean that all Evolutionists were/are Nazis!!!!
... just because somebody takes a scientific theory and perverts it to their own ends, doesn't make the Theory invalid nor it's proponents Nazis.
... now can we get back to the debate with 'respect' ... as Ali-G might say!!!!0 -
... even though there are scientifically valid alternatived like ID and Creation Science??
It is not scientifically valid though JC and that is why it is not taught as an alternative. You need to get those conspiracy theories out of your head and realise that creationism is not a scientific proposal.0 -
...I wouldn't have 'gone there' if I were an Evolutionist ... but you have!!!
Sir Arthur Keith was a British anthropologist, an atheistic evolutionist and an anti-Nazi, but he drew this chilling conclusion:
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’
Reference
Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947
... of course, the fact that Hitler was an Evolutionist doesn't mean that all Evolutionists were/are Nazis!!!!
... just because somebody takes a scientific theory and perverts it to their own ends, doesn't make the Theory invalid nor it's proponents Nazis.
... now can we get back to the debate with 'respect' ... as Ali-G might say!!!!
I'm well aware of that, but you were the one who brought up the nazis. The fact remains that Hitler's writings - Mein Kampf in particular - are strewn with typical creationist absurdities, such as species being separated into distinct "kinds" (I don't think he used that word, but the principle was the same).0 -
Go and look up the word "analogy" - you need to. I have withdrawn none of my statements. Stop attributing statements to me that I did not make. That behaviour makes you a liar (yet again).... You did draw the analogy between Creationism and Nazism ... and I'm glad that you have withdrawn it (in a mealy mouthed fashion)....and if my familly fought against Nazism on principle ... while you say that yours fought in two wars (presumably, because they liked war - or just didn't like the Germans), this may indeed make you unqualified to comment on Nazism (as you have admitted yourself above)!!!
Whe cares what my family or your family did (i see that it's now your entire family and not just uncle bob anymore)? That doesn't have any bearing on whether or not you are an idiot and on whether or not you are right or wrong in this thread. (Your sneaky attempt to insult my grandfather is pathetic and very typical). I didn't admit to being unqualified (again, you lie). I said that the actions of my family members had little bearing on my qualification to comment. If you cannot understand the difference, you truly are an idiot.
They may well be offended by my observation that certain islamic fundamentalist indoctrinate their children with murderous beliefs - I dont really care if they are offended by this fact. I would suggest that instead of spending their time being offended by facts, they might consider why this is a fact....of course it's not a Human right to engage in 'hate mongering' ... and your analogy would be equally offensive to any Muslim Creation Scientists that I know !!!
Anyway, it is a fact that certain islamic sects carry out this type of brainwashing. What is interesting is that they (the fundamentalists) would no more view it as hatemongering than you would view YEC as unscientific. There is an analogy for you.
Personally, I view creation "science" as potentially damaging to society in the long term as extremist islamic fundamentalism. The former may not have the immediate threat of violence associated with it. However, were creationists to somehow force acceptance of their beliefs as scientific and have children indoctrinated as such, it would be a return to the dark ages. Science has fought a long and increasingly succesful battle to free people from clutches of charlatans and witch doctors like the people who promote creation 'science'.... I agree that indoctrination shouldn't be part of any liberal education process ...
... indoctrination is the presentation of only one view to the exclusion of all others ... so why does Evolutionists want to continue doing so in relation to Evolution as the only 'origins explanation' that is allowed ... even though there are scientifically valid alternatived like ID and Creation Science??
It is not indoctrination to teach children the scientifically validated truth of evolution. No matter how much waffle and bull**** you spout in this thread, you can't get around the fact that evolutionary theory is supported overwhelmingly by the available evidence.
It is no more indoctrination to teach children that evolution is true than it is to teach them that special relativity is true.0 -
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... OK so you originally drew an anology between Creationism and Nazism ...Originally Posted by equivariant
It is not a "human right" to have schools indoctrinate your children with your own beliefs. No more than it was a "human right" for nazis to indoctrinate their children with their views.
Originally Posted by equivariant
I did not draw an analogy between nazism and creationism.
Originally Posted by equivariant
Now I really am comparing creationism to nazism, so feel free to be as offended as you like.
equivariant
Go and look up the word "analogy" - you need to. I have withdrawn none of my statements. Stop attributing statements to me that I did not make. That behaviour makes you a liar (yet again).
... then you denied that you drew an analogy between Nazism ans Creationism ...
... and then you promptly compared Creationism to Nazism ...
... and now you are accusing me of lying because I pointed some of this out to you
... you really are a thoroughly mixed up kid!!!:eek::D
... where did I say that my entire family did anything?equivariant
Whe cares what my family or your family did (i see that it's now your entire family and not just uncle bob anymore)? That doesn't have any bearing on whether or not you are an idiot and on whether or not you are right or wrong in this thread. (Your sneaky attempt to insult my grandfather is pathetic and very typical). I didn't admit to being unqualified (again, you lie). I said that the actions of my family members had little bearing on my qualification to comment. If you cannot understand the difference, you truly are an idiot.
I didn't insult your grandfather ... I merely pointed out that he fought in two wars ... one of which didn't involve opposition to Nazism and you did say "Does that make me particularly qualified to comment on fascism/nazism?" ... and you answered you own question with "No it does not".
I accepted the validity of your own statement that your family circumstances didn't make you "particularly qualified to comment on fascism/nazism."
What's wrong with you? ... even when I agree with you ... you still grumble ... and mutter darkly to yourself!!!:eek::):D
...they would be correct in being offended by being unfairly compared to a terrorist ... when their request is that their Human Rights be respected as they peacefully pursue Creation Science.Originally Posted by equivariant
If any mention of nazism offends you - what about this example? Is it a human right for islamic fundamentalists to indoctrinate their children with the belief that killing in the name of religion is right.
Originally Posted by J C
...of course it's not a Human right to engage in 'hate mongering' ... and your analogy would be equally offensive to any Muslim Creation Scientists that I know !!!
equivariant
They may well be offended by my observation that certain islamic fundamentalist indoctrinate their children with murderous beliefs - I dont really care if they are offended by this fact. I would suggest that instead of spending their time being offended by facts, they might consider why this is a fact.
...but some sects do view what they do as hatemongering ... it's just that they don't think there is anything particularly wrong with hating people with whom they differ with on points of belief...equivariant
Anyway, it is a fact that certain islamic sects carry out this type of brainwashing. What is interesting is that they (the fundamentalists) would no more view it as hatemongering than you would view YEC as unscientific. There is an analogy for you.
...actually, some of the more strident Evolutionists on this thread don't seem to be particularly enamored with Creationists either ... and they don't seem to think there is anything particularly wrong with despising people with whom they they differ on points of belief...
... now there is a REAL analogy for you!!!!
... and as if on cue, here come another spite filled outburst from your good self !!!
...I will let others judge if these are fair remarks about Saved Christians, Orthodox Jews and Muslims who are eminently qualified Conventional Sceintists ... or is the above quote just the rantings of an Evolutionist Fundamentalist!!!!:(:eek:equivariant
Personally, I view creation "science" as potentially damaging to society in the long term as extremist islamic fundamentalism. The former may not have the immediate threat of violence associated with it. However, were creationists to somehow force acceptance of their beliefs as scientific and have children indoctrinated as such, it would be a return to the dark ages. Science has fought a long and increasingly succesful battle to free people from clutches of charlatans and witch doctors like the people who promote creation 'science'.
...it wouldn't be indoctrination ... if they were scientifically validated in the first place ...equivariant
It is not indoctrination to teach children the scientifically validated truth of evolution. No matter how much waffle and bull**** you spout in this thread, you can't get around the fact that evolutionary theory is supported overwhelmingly by the available evidence.
..and in the second place if they also pointed out the serious scientific shortcomings of Evolution!!!:eek:
...special relativity presents itself 'warts and all' ... and indeed it has built up quite an impressive body of empirical evidence for its own validity ... Materialistic Evolution has nothing going for it ... and its acolytes clamber all over any other valid phenomenon like Gravity of Special Relativity in a desperate attempt to hide its own scientific nakedness!!!!equivariant
It is no more indoctrination to teach children that evolution is true than it is to teach them that special relativity is true.0 -
equivariant wrote: »However, were creationists to somehow force acceptance of their beliefs as scientific and have children indoctrinated as such, it would be a return to the dark ages.
I think comments like that are incredible unhelpful and unfair
- to the Middle Ages!
It is no more indoctrination to teach children that evolution is true than it is to teach them that special relativity is true.
This is an important point. Science isn't about telling people to believe something is true. It is about giving them the tools to disprove it if it isn't! Creationism does not disprove an Earth that is much older then they claim or prove it is about 6,000 years old.0 -
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’
Reference
Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947
you missed the following words ". He has failed, not because the theory of evolution is false, but because he has made three fatal blunders in its application.
... His three great antagonists, although they do not preach the doctrine of evolution, are very consistent exponents of its tenets."
... of course, the fact that Hitler was an Evolutionist doesn't mean that all Evolutionists were/are Nazis!!!!just because somebody takes a scientific theory and perverts it to their own ends, doesn't make the Theory invalid nor it's proponents Nazis.
In fact Keith maintained the opponents of Hitler were evolutionists as well!
Instead of quote mining try the original:
http://www.bearfabrique.org/Evolution08/evolution-and-ethics.html0 -
...I have no authority to judge the eternal destiny of anybody ... and I accept their own description of their beliefs ... so if somebody says that they are a Saved Christian, I believe them.
Could I also point out that somebody is a 'fellow traveller' of somebody else whom the support on the issue on which they support them ... so, if the mainstream churches support Materialistic accounts of Evolution ... then on this issue, which is of central importance to Atheists, they are their 'fellow travellers'.
Based on this definition of "fellow traveller" you no doubt are a fellow traveller of atheists on several issues. for example atheists believe it makes sence that men and women over 21 should have a vote.
Furthermore, atheists make up a small percentage of the world population. Evolution as a scientific theory does not mean people adhering to it must be atheists!... representatives of all of the major religions of the world met in Assisi and at the Millenium Summit of the UN in public and committed themselves to progressing towards a common future
... so it is no conspiracy theory!!!
That they met is not a conspiracy.
That they met with atheists in order to propagate an atheistic theory of evolution IS a conspiracy theory!
Atheists by the way are not a world religion under the above definition.... here is a BBC report on the Assisi meeting...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1663138.stm
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/januaryweb-only/1-28-13.0.html
Which shows WHERE that religions were "fellow travellers" of atheistic evolution theory?...where have I said they are not Christians?
You are the one without authority to say that they are not Creationists!!!!
I keep telling you that the mainstream Christian Churches are all officially Creationist churches with Creationist Creeds, like you have confirmed above in your own quote!!!
Creationist in believing that God created the universe or gave man a conscience. But not in the way you claim i.e. that the earth was created 6,000 years ago!
Here is an interesting take onthe "nazi" subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity_Movement...although one wonders what mental contortions are required to proudly pronounce a belief in God as 'Creator of Heaven and Earth' ... while simultaneously believing that you are a product of the interaction of random chemistry and environmental selection operating on Pondslime over inordinate amounts of time!!!
Yawn! You seem to have missed the last 20,000 messages!
Creation is not inconsistent with science!
Fundamentalists Biblical creation IS!Equally, I know many Roman Catholics who are Saved Christians ... who remain within Roman Catholicism as witnesses to their fellow Roman Catholics
You here seem to suggest that one can be a christian and not accept the world is 6,000 years old! But we all know you are a Biblical creationist and insist the Earth is not millions of years old!... your Pope didn't refer to anybody as 'crackpots' during the Assisi Gatherings ...
Please don't personalise the issue. i didnt claim MY anything . It makes no difference whether I am atheist or christian (Roman /Anglican or Orthodox) for the point of fact.and it was reported that "Pope John Paul and the other leaders who spoke at the morning session in Assisi repeatedly underlined the need for justice and respect for human rights in building peace."
Months before the meeting!
Here is what he siad on the day:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20011211_xxxv-world-day-for-peace_en.html
No peace without justice, no justice without forgivenes
Don't forget your above 20 November call for prayer with Muslims is eleven days after 9 Nov 2001 when other people were planning for war.
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/refs/Safari_Scrapbook3/Whiskey%20Bar-%20What%20a%20Tangled%20Web%20We%20Weave%20.%20.%20..htmSounds like you should start by extending your love towards Saved Christians ... or at the very least, you should ask yourself why you hold them in such derision. ... when their faith position is one of Orthodox Christianity ... and their scientists include some of the most eminent members of their chosen professions.
I don't ! I don't personalise issues. they may be crackpots like funamentlaist muslims or fundamentalist communist atheists but that doesn't mean I hate them!... and that is how it should be ... with every person being accorded full respect for their beliefs ... especially the ones you disagreee with!!!:)
I totally agree. But when actions based on those beliefs affect people - actions such as bombing or taking over the school system - then those people have to be stopped.I disagree with many of the unfounded beliefs that Evolutionists hold ...
So do I! But whatever unfounded beliefs they have I have to accept the objective scientific measurements behind evolution and the age of the Earth no matter whatever other unfounded beliefs outside of evolution evolutionists have.but I fully respect their right to hold their beliefs and to transmit them to whoever will listen ... without any threat to their careers ... and all I ask is that the same courtesy is extended to Creationists.
And we are full circle back to "equal time on the science curriculum for creationism, flying spaghetti monsters etc. "
sorry but NO! People just can't set off bombs in public and expect others to tolerate that as a personal expression of belief! They can't hijack aircraft! Nor can they hijack the school system!0 -
...Indeed, I actually believe that 18 is the correct age ... but I take your point ... and on this issue I am a 'fellow traveller' with many Atheists ... and some of them are also ''fellow travellers' with me!!!Based on this definition of "fellow traveller" you no doubt are a fellow traveller of atheists on several issues. for example atheists believe it makes sence that men and women over 21 should have a vote.
However, voting age isn't a fundamental or defining issue for either Atheists or Creationists ... while Evolution is the ONE Theory that has been singled out by leading Atheist as making them feel intellectually satisfied. It is therefore quite significant if anybody is a 'fellow traveller' with Atheists on this issue. It's a bit like an Atheist announcing that, although s/he doesn't believe in God s/he does believe in the Bible ... they would certainly be viewed as a 'fellow traveller' with Mono-theism, by their fellow Atheists if they made such a pronouncement!!!:)
... there are probably many more de facto Atheists around than you think ... however, be that as it may it is valid to include anybody who believes in Materialistic Evolution from Pondkind to Mankind (which is the Theory that makes Atheists feel intellectually satisfied) as a 'fellow traveller' with Atheism on this issueFurthermore, atheists make up a small percentage of the world population. Evolution as a scientific theory does not mean people adhering to it must be atheists!
...and when they join Atheists in advocating the suppression of alternative opinions on the 'origins issue' they certainly become full 'fellow travellers' with atheists on this issue as well!!!
... how very convenient ... from the point of view of being able to promote their faith position in countries which ban the mention of 'faith positions' in schools.That they met is not a conspiracy.
That they met with atheists in order to propagate an atheistic theory of evolution IS a conspiracy theory!
Atheists by the way are not a world religion under the above definition.
However, their reticence to be officially classified as a de jure religion, when there are legal 'downsides' to being so classified hasn't stopped them campaigning for de facto recognition as a religion when it suits them ... this being just one example :-
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3152
...Assisi wouldn't be the kind of place where an Atheist would be seen ... but the contacts are being maintained ... and the results of this co-operation is evident ... including your co-operation with equivarient in 'badmouthing' Christians on this thread ... of which this is but the latest example:Which shows WHERE that religions were "fellow travellers" of atheistic evolution theory?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64730801&postcount=21533
I would suggest that you might profitably listen to what the Word of God has to say in the following verses:-
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
...the proclamation in the Apostles Creed is indeed a proclamation of a belief in a RECENT DIRECT CREATION by God ... historically, the only debate within Catholocism was whether the Creative Act was instantaneous ... or took six days (which was the position that the Protestant Reformers took).Creationist in believing that God created the universe or gave man a conscience. But not in the way you claim i.e. that the earth was created 6,000 years ago!
..if you doubt me ... go look at the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel next time you are in Rome ... it has paintings of the Creation, Noah's Flood ... the whole Creationist nine yards!!!!
http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/CSN/CSN_Volta_StCentr.html
...it is only really since Vatican II that all this Evolutionism crept into Roman Catholocism
...you may have missed it ... but there is considerable debate over this conclusion!!!!:DYawn! You seem to have missed the last 20,000 messages!
Creation is not inconsistent with science!
Fundamentalists Biblical creation IS!0 -
I know this is off topic, but I cannot let J C get away with yet more lying. I will let his own posts speak for themselves
In response to a comment that my grandfather fought in both world wars you made the following comment....and if members of my familly fought against Nazism on principle ... while you say that yours fought in two wars (presumably, because they liked war - or just didn't like the Germans),
Then later, when I pulled you up on your typically slimy attempt to insult someone, you say...
I didn't insult your grandfather ... I merely pointed out that he fought in two wars ...
What a piece of work you are. So insinuating without any evidence that someone just "liked war" or "just didn't like the Germans" doesn't count as insulting?
No doubt you will come out with some ludricous defence of your behaviour.0 -
...Indeed, I actually believe that 18 is the correct age ... but I take your point ... and on this issue I am a 'fellow traveller' with many Atheists ... and they are also a 'fellow traveller' with me!!!
See below about "on this issue"... there are probably many more de facto Atheists around than you think
IU thin they are a tiny minority and the stats support me. what evidence have you?
... however, be that as it may it is valid to include anybody who believes in Marterialistic Evolution from Pondkind to Mankind (which is the Theory that makes Atheists feel intellectually satisfied) as a 'fellow traveller' with Atheism on this issue
...and when they join Atheists in advocating the suppression of alternative opinions on the 'origins issue' they certainly become full 'fellow travellers' with atheists on this issue as well!!!
[/quote]
If that is the case then what is important is the issue whether or not atheists Christians or whatever agree with it. You keep trying to link non atheists with atheists as "fellow travellers" but in fact now it appears is all they have in common is a belief in biological evolution. for "atheists and fellow travellers" what you really mean is "people who accept the theory of evolution". Please stop trying to suggest the theory is atheistic.... how very convenient ... from the point of view of being able to promote their faith position in countries which ban the mention of 'faith positions' in schools.
They DONT! THey ban it from being given EQUAL TIME with science!
Some countries allow religion to be taught in schools. Some have no religion in schools.However, their reticence to be officially classified as a de jure religion, when there are legal 'downsides' to being so classified hasn't stopped them campaigning for de facto recognition as a religion when it suits them ... this being just one example :-
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3152
Off topic. whether they campaign or not they are NOT A RELIGION UNDER THE ABOVE DEFINITION which you have already accepted.
The US background is that the people who drafted the constitution didn't want religious wars and one denomination being paramount and so they decided to favour no religion....Assisi wouldn't be the kind of place where an Atheist would be seen
Don't know about that there are p[aerallessl between christian mystics like Francis and Bhuddist or sufi teaching.
... but the contacts are being maintained ... and the results of this co-operation is evident ...
How is the above comment on how people misconceive the Middle Ages insulting to Christians?including your co-operation with equivarient in 'badmouthing' Christians on this thread ... of which this is but the latest example:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64730801&postcount=21533I would suggest that you might profitably listen to what the Word of God has to say in the following verse:-
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
But now you are back to linking non athiests with atheists as "fellow travellers" when above you admitted you do it yourself when the ISSUE is one you agree with!
Please STOP trying to link non atheists to atheiosm because they both happen to believe evolution is valid!...the proclamation in the Apostles Creed is indeed a proclamation of a belief in a RECENT DIRECT CREATION by God
No it isn't! it doesn't say "maker of Heaven and Earth 4000 years ago!"... historically, the only debate within Catholocism was whether the Creative Act was instantaneous
And your evidence for this is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution#Early_reaction... or took six days (which was the position that the Protestant Reformers took).
..if you doubt me ... go look at the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel next time you are in Rome ... it has paintings of the Creation, Noah's Flood ... the whole Creationist nine yards!!!!
It also had pagan matriarchs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistine_Chapel_ceiling#Sibyls
does that mean the world was created by Saturn?http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/CSN/CSN_Volta_StCentr.html
...it is only really since Vatican II that all this Evolutionism crept into Roman Catholocism
Wrong! [from above] 1896, John Augustine Zahm, a well-known American Holy Cross priest who had been a professor of physics and chemistry at the Catholic University of Notre Dame, Indiana, and was then Procurator General of his Order in Rome, published Evolution and Dogma, arguing that Church teaching, the Bible, and evolution did not conflict
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JW-f0uBYuOEC&pg=PR10&dq=Holy+Cross+%22John+Augustine+Zahm%22+evolution&ei=488dSqygIYjCyQTa_cyfAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false...you may have missed it ... but there is considerable debate over this conclusion!!!!:D
Not within mainstream Christianity there isn't. no more than there is considerable debate on the sun orbiting an unmoving earth!0 -
...if you had taken the time to read my original post you would have seen that I said that Sir Sir Arthur Keith was an atheistic evolutionist and an anti-NaziOriginally Posted by J C
...I wouldn't have 'gone there' if I were an Evolutionist ... but you have!!!
Sir Arthur Keith was a British anthropologist, an atheistic evolutionist and an anti-Nazi, but he drew this chilling conclusion:
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’
Reference
Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947
... of course, the fact that Hitler was an Evolutionist doesn't mean that all Evolutionists were/are Nazis!!!!
... just because somebody takes a scientific theory and perverts it to their own ends, doesn't make the Theory invalid nor it's proponents Nazis.
... now can we get back to the debate with 'respect' ... as Ali-G might say!!!!
ISAW
you missed the following words ". He has failed, not because the theory of evolution is false, but because he has made three fatal blunders in its application.
... His three great antagonists, although they do not preach the doctrine of evolution, are very consistent exponents of its tenets."
... of course, the fact that Hitler was an Evolutionist doesn't mean that all Evolutionists were/are Nazis!!!!
In fact Keith maintained the opponents of Hitler were evolutionists as well!
Instead of quote mining try the original:
http://www.bearfabrique.org/Evolution08/evolution-and-ethics.html
...please stop arguing with me even when I agree with you!!!:eek:0 -
...OK ... so WHY did your Grandfather fight in the two World Wars, particularly the First World War, if he didn't like war or liked the Germans?equivariant wrote: »I know this is off topic, but I cannot let J C get away with yet more lying. I will let his own posts speak for themselves
In response to a comment that my grandfather fought in both world wars you made the following comment.
Then later, when I pulled you up on your typically slimy attempt to insult someone, you say
What a piece of work you are. So insinuating without any evidence that someone just "liked war" or "just didn't like the Germans" doesn't count as insulting?
No doubt you will come out with some ludricous defence of your behaviour.0 -
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...I was merely pointing out that there are many YECs within the Roman Catholic Church.You here seem to suggest that one can be a christian and not accept the world is 6,000 years old! But we all know you are a Biblical creationist and insist the Earth is not millions of years old!
...yes it is pretty standard New World Order stuff ... and is essential rhetoric to lay the groundwork for the One World Religion being formed with the co-operation of all of the main world religions.Months before the meeting!
Here is what he siad on the day:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20011211_xxxv-world-day-for-peace_en.html
No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness
... I should hope you don't hate fellow Christians!!!Originally Posted by J C
Sounds like you should start by extending your love towards Saved Christians ... or at the very least, you should ask yourself why you hold them in such derision. ... when their faith position is one of Orthodox Christianity ... and their scientists include some of the most eminent members of their chosen professions
ISAW
I don't ! I don't personalise issues. they may be crackpots like funamentlaist muslims or fundamentalist communist atheists but that doesn't mean I hate them!
...what I have asked you to do is show love towards Saved Christians ... or at the very least, ask yourself why you hold them in such derision ... by calling them 'crackpots' when their faith position is one of Orthodox Christianity ... and their scientists include some of the most eminent members of their chosen professions
...are you for real??Originallp Posted by J C
... with every person being accorded full respect for their beliefs ... especially the ones you disagreee with!!
ISAW
I totally agree. But when actions based on those beliefs affect people - actions such as bombing or taking over the school system - then those people have to be stopped.
...surely there is no comparison between mass murder and somebody asking that their faith and that of their children is respected!!!
...could I gently point out that it is a criminal offence to discriminate on the basis of religion ... and it is also a criminal offence to make bombs!!!!
... you are quite entitled to believe what you wish ... all that I ask is that you extend the same rights to myself and my fellow Creationists ... or is the era of sectarian discrimination still alive and kicking within Roman Catholocism in 2010 ... despite all of its talk about 'peace and justice'???ISAW
So do I! But whatever unfounded beliefs they have I have to accept the objective scientific measurements behind evolution and the age of the Earth no matter whatever other unfounded beliefs outside of evolution evolutionists have.
... or do you believe that Saved Christians are not entitled to peace and justice???
...WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???ISAWAnd we are full circle back to "equal time on the science curriculum for creationism, flying spaghetti monsters etc. "
sorry but NO! People just can't set off bombs in public and expect others to tolerate that as a personal expression of belief! They can't hijack aircraft! Nor can they hijack the school system!
Creation Scientists DON'T engage in bombing ... or hijacking aircraft or anything else ...
... and all we ask is that our beliefs be respected within the school system
... and the only Flying Spaghetti monsters that I am aware of are the ones that Evolutionists continue to confuse themselves and their 'fellow travellers' with!!!:)0
This discussion has been closed.
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