The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

Morbert

wolfsbane wrote: »

I gather there is as much difficulty in defining species as in defining kind. Good attempts have been made that cover both in general, but there is open-endedness. A helpful article:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/FIT/appendix3.asp

Creationists understand that the classification category of species is not the same as the Genesis kind. Species is a man-made classification that is generally defined as an interbreeding unit that is reproductively isolated from other units. It is well known, however, that individuals from different species or even different genera can potentially interbreed, but do not normally do so. There are factors that can cause “reproductive isolation” within a large group of animals. Animal behavior, size, environmental separation, or complex reproductive strategies can deter reproduction. Animals that can reproduce, but normally do not, would be included within one Genesis kind. In the classification system, however, the splitters have dominated (see appendix 1), so animals have been split up into different species within a genus. The original Genesis kind was undoubtedly a much broader classification than a species.
Then what are the boundaries of the Genesis kind and do all the types of elephants, living and fossil, fit into one kind? There is a fair amount of research into the definition of the various Genesis kinds, called baramins.1 This subfield of study within creationism is called baraminology. It is obvious that the human species is one Genesis kind or baramin, but when it comes to animals and plants, it is often difficult to classify them into baramins. Sometimes, the kind may be at the species level, as in modern humans, or at the genus level or sometimes at the family level. It should be rare that the kind is at the level of the order or class.

Species have been well defined (and that article does not dispute that) even if you have unusual population behaviour (i.e. ring species). When an evolutionary biologist uses the word species or speciation, it is always clear from the context what they mean. The same is not true for kind, as kind has never been defined. I welcome any "creationist research paper" that defines what is meant by kind in the context "Animals of one kind cannot evolve into another."

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
... It looks like we may have the longest real thread in the World ...

... its significantly longer than this thread that was deliberately set up in 2006 to become the 'Worlds Longest Thread' ... and now has only 1,332 pages and 19,966 posts ... in comparison with our thread ... with 1,446 pages and 21,681 posts!!!!
http://forums.gamernode.com/showthre...2062&page=1332

... and when it comes to hits our 553,995 hits puts the 'Worlds Longest Thread' (that isn't) in the shade because it only has 398,390 hits!!!!
http://forums.gamernode.com/forumdisplay.php?f=78
... take a bow everybody for this amazing achievement!!!!!

... who says that the Christian Faith ... and the 'origins issue' is boring???!!!!

PDN
Sorry, but this thread puts you in the shade. It has 106,000 posts and over 2 million hits.

Obviously the 'origins issue' is less interesting than an imaginary bar.

...I did say real (i.e. a non-fictional debating) thread (that addresses a specific topic) ... as distinct from a fictional 'talking shop' ... which both the 'imaginary bar' and the 'moaning/venting' threads are!!!

Could I also gently point out that the total hits on The Bible Creationism and Prophecy thread at over 554 thousand is more than double the hits on all of the other 138 threads on the Christianity Forum combined (which currently stands at approximately 209 thousand hits).

You could actually be right, PDN, that the different aspects the Christian Faith, as currently presented on the Christianity Forum, may be boring ... but the 'origins issue' and the other aspects of the Christian Faith discussed on The Bible Creationism and Prophecy thread certainly aren't!!!!:D:)

...perhaps the Evolutionist churches whose pews are emptying more rapidly than you could say 'Creation Science' might profitably consider these figures ... and what they are telling them!!!:eek:

... then again, they may not bother!!!!:D

It does looks like we may have the longest real (i.e. specific topic) thread in the World ...
... so take a bow everybody for this amazing achievement!!!!!:):D

... who says that Creation Science and the Christian Faith are boring???!!!!

Genghiz Cohen

J C wrote: »

...I did say real (i.e. non-fictional debating) thread ... as distinct from a fictional 'talking shop' ... which both the 'imaginary bar' and the 'moaning/venting' threads are!!!

Could I also gently point out that the total hits on The Bible Creationism and Prophecy thread at over 554 thousand is more than double the hits on all of the other 138 threads on the Christianity Forum combined (which currently stands at approximately 209 thousand hits).

You could actually be right, PDN, that the different aspects the Christian Faith, as currently presented on this forum, may actually be boring ... but the 'origins issue' certainly isn't!!!!:D:)

...perhaps the Evolutionist churches whose pews are emptying more rapidly than you could say 'Creation Science' might profitably consider these figures ... and what they are telling them!!!:eek:

... then again, they may not bother!!!!:D

That's your worst post so far!

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
... would you please stop talking about providing this evidence ... and start actually providing some!!!

... but then my faith isn't primarily based on the fact that some man called Jesus died on a cross in Palestine ... it is grounded on His Resurrection ... because He was God ... and this I believe through faith, in the witness of over 500 people.

Wicknight
So you haven't observed the resurrection ... in fact no one actually did.

... over 500 people saw Jesus after His Resurrection ... but you are correct that I am Saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

It is a very well founded faith though ... and I have had direct personal experience of The Holy Spirit in action in my life.
It is also supported by the fact that the Biblical Accounts of Creation and Noah's Flood are fully supported by the scientific evidence for these phenomena!!! :eek::):D

I also note that you haven't made any attempt to answer my first request, that you would please stop talking about providing evidence for 'Pondkind to Mankind Evolution' ... and start to actually provide some evidence for it!!!:eek::):D
I appreciate that this will be impossible (becasue such evidence doesn't actually exist) and I therefore fully understand and forgive your reticence in answering me on this issue!!!:)

J C

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

That's your worst post so far!

... Why?

... I think it is actually one of my best posts ... and (as usual) its firmly based on objectively verifiable FACTS!!!:eek:

... perhaps what you really meant to say was that it is 'uncomfortable' for the Atheists ... and especially their 'fellow travellers' ... but then again, the truth often hurts!!!

mehfesto

PDN wrote: »

Sorry, but this thread puts you in the shade. It has 106,000 posts and over 2 million hits.

Obviously the 'origins issue' is less interesting than an imaginary bar.

Will they be allowed to post on Good Friday???

ISAW

J C wrote: »

... they don't have any evidence for 'Pondkind to Mankind Evolution', Wolfsbane ... but their overwhelming need to deny God completely overcomes their logical faculties!!!!

... and I'm simply at a loss to explain why so many Christians continue to believe this stuff ... unless they are merely 'cultural Christians' and de facto 'Agnostics' !!:eek:

And there you go again presenting a false dichotomy.

Most Christians accept the theory of evolution! Accepting evolution ISN'T a denial of God! It isn't a case of choosing one or the other. Only Biblical fundamentalists like you think this way because they believe the Earth and Universe is about 6,000 years or so old because they believe God created it then. Most Christians DON'T believe as you believe!

Evolution is based on observation of the world around us coupled with objective measurement and empirical evidence. Your idea is based on your interpretation of the Bible mixed with pseudo science !

ISAW

mehfesto wrote: »

Will they be allowed to post on Good Friday???

LOL nice one Im going to ask them. But i agree it isnt a thread because it does not address a specific subject.

J C

ISAW wrote: »

And there you go again presenting a false dichotomy.

Most Christians accept the theory of evolution! Accepting evolution ISN'T a denial of God! It isn't a case of choosing one or the other. Only Biblical fundamentalists like you think this way because they believe the Earth and Universe is about 6,000 years or so old because they believe God created it then. Most Christians DON'T believe as you believe!

Evolution is based on observation of the world around us coupled with objective measurement and empirical evidence. Your idea is based on your interpretation of the Bible mixed with pseudo science !

... I am not a 'Biblical Fundamentalist' ... I am a Saved Christian who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture ... and I believe in a plain reading of the Word of God ... reading it allegorically where allegories are clearly being used ... and literally where this is clearly intended by the context and the text.

... and the primary reason that I don't believe in 'Pondkind to Mankind' Evolution is because the physical evidence contradicts such a conclusion.

I actually became a Saved Christian long after I had concluded that the scientific evidence didn't support 'Pondkind to Mankind' Evolution.

I am certain that 'Pondkind to Mankind' Evolution didn't/doesn't occur ... but my Salvation is by faith alone.:)

I can understand how an Atheist can hold to a belief in Evolution, even when all of the evidence invalidates such a belief ... as it is really the 'only origins game in town' for an Atheist.

What I cannot understand is why Christians hold to such a belief ... unless they trust the wishful thinking of Atheists more than the plain Word of God and all of the physical evidence before their eyes ... a rather strange position for a Christian to find themselves in.:)

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by PDN
Sorry, but this thread puts you in the shade. It has 106,000 posts and over 2 million hits.

Obviously the 'origins issue' is less interesting than an imaginary bar.

mehfesto
Will they be allowed to post on Good Friday???:)

... or should they be breathalysed if they try to drive immediately after posting????:pac::):D

Anybody going to the match in Thomond Park on Good Friday should bring along their iPhones ... and pop in for an aprés match 'drink' afterwards!!!!:eek::D

J C

doctoremma wrote: »

Did the CSI that could be calculated (sic) as a function of the slug's genome increase upon the addition of the algae gene?

The CSI did increase in the Slug ... but do bear in mind that it is the same CSI that has merely been sequestred from the algae ... and therefore no new CSI has been produced ... and the ultimate origin of the CSI was the Creation of the Algal Kind!!!!:)

Jesus loves you, Emma ... now will go and leave your old sinful self behind ... and be Saved !!!:)

I promise, it won't hurt ... and I would be happy to lead you to Jesus Christ if you PM me!!

Genghiz Cohen

J C wrote: »

I can understand how an Atheist can hold to a belief in Evolution, even when all of the evidence invalidates such a belief ... as it is really the 'only origins game in town' for an Atheist.

An atheist can believe we were put here by a God, but so many religions claim creation, it would be impossible to tell which one is true.

The Mad Hatter

J C wrote: »

The CSI did increase in the Slug ... but do bear in mind that it is the same CSI that has merely been sequestred from the algae ... and therefore no new CSI has been produced ... and the ultimate origin of the CSI was the Creation of the Algal Kind!!!!:)

Jesus loves you, Emma ... now will go and leave your old sinful self behind ... and be Saved !!!:)

I promise, it won't hurt ... and I would be happy to lead you to Jesus Christ if you PM me!!

So one living thing can "sequester" CSI from another?

J C

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

An atheist can believe we were put here by a God, but so many religions claim creation, it would be impossible to tell which one is true.

...you have just confirmed what I have always suspected ... that there are very few real Atheists ... most are just Anti-God Theists!!!
... and could I gently remind you that if you believe that we were put here by a God ... you are not an Atheist ... you are actually a Theist!!!!:)

Proving which God did the Creating is a separate issue ... and one which has been largely neglected within 'mainstream' Christianity due to its infatuation with Evolutionism.

PDN

J C wrote: »

Could I also gently point out that the total hits on The Bible Creationism and Prophecy thread at over 554 thousand is more than double the hits on all of the other 138 threads on the Christianity Forum combined (which currently stands at approximately 209 thousand hits).

Oh dear, I hope your info is more accurate when you talk about Creationism!

You need to reset your preferences, which are evidently just showing the threads that have been accessed in the last 2 months. The Christianity Forum has a total of over 2200 threads, not 138. The total number of hits runs to several millions.

J C

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

So one living thing can "sequester" CSI from another?

... Yes ... and in addition, Sex and Genetic Engineering also involve the sequestration of CSI between two or more organisms.:cool::)

Genghiz Cohen

J C wrote: »

...you have just confirmed what I have always suspected ... that there are very few real Atheists ... most are just Anti-God Theists!!!
... and could I gently remind you that if you believe that we were put here by a God ... you are not an Atheist ... you are actually a Theist!!!!:)

Of course, in hindsight maybe saying an Atheist could believe in the ID of life would have been better.

J C

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Of course, in hindsight maybe saying an Atheist could believe in the ID of life would have been better.

... fair enough!!!!

That was how I started my intellectual 'journey' ... and it ended up with me becoming a Creation Scientist ... and getting Saved!!!!:)

J C

PDN wrote: »

Oh dear, I hope your info is more accurate when you talk about Creationism!

You need to reset your preferences, which are evidently just showing the threads that have been accessed in the last 2 months. The Christianity Forum has a total of over 2200 threads, not 138. The total number of hits runs to several millions.

... thanks for the tip.

I have now discovered that the total number of threads that have ever been started on the Christianity Forum are 2,151 to be precise ... but, could I point out that threads that haven't been accessed for more than 2 months are pretty well dormant.

Either way, isn't it amazing that this one thread has more than twice the hits of ALL of the other currently active threads on the Christianity Forum combined?
Indeed the 555 thousand hits on the The Bible Creationism and Prophecy thread matches the TOTAL hits on the most recently active 473 threads on the Christianity Forum i.e. every thread that has had a posting since last July!!!

I am debating with nearly 300 Atheists / Evolutionists on this thread ... and the thread that I am debating them on has 473 times the number of hits of an average Christianity Forum Thread!!!!

Like I have already said, these are amazing figures ... but I fear that their import is totaly lost on many people ... and the 'mainstream' Churches will continue to haemorrage members to apostacy and Bible-believing Churches in equal measure.:)

Genghiz Cohen

J C wrote: »

I am debating with nearly 300 Atheists

Where did 300 come from?
As far as I can tell there may be 20.

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
I am debating with nearly 300 Atheists / Evolutionists on this thread ... and the thread that I am debating them on has 473 times the number of hits of an average Christianity Forum Thread!!!!

Genghiz Cohen
Where did 300 come from?
As far as I can tell there may be 20.

Here are the 299 Atheists / Evolutionists ... in their order of appearance:-

1 robindch
2 Dades
3 Playboy
4 athena 2000
5 jtsuited
6 Asiaprod
7 GreenHell
8 The Atheist
9 growler
10 Excelsior
11 Son Goku
12 The Recliner
13 juddd
14 Sapien
15 Gordon
16 Wibbs
17 dalk
18 ChilleR
19 Puck
20 hairyheretic
21 homeostatic
22 JustHalf
23 OfflerCrocGod
24 Propocus
25 llatsni
26 bus77
27 slipss
28 samb
29 pH
30 bmoferrall
31 Whiskey Priest
32 Zod
33 Scofflaw
34 bluewolf
35 Morbert
36 UU
37 twentycentshift
38 St Crispin
39 006
40 Charis
41 John Doe
42 Talliesen
43 Parsley
44 ISAW
45 Yossie
46 toiletduck
47 Akrasia
48 Assyrian
49 MOGSA
50 bounty
51 Wicknight
52 love4all
53 padraigmyers
54 archdukefranz
55 mysteria
56 TheDuckIsBack
57 FallenSeraph
58 5uspect
59 Lunoma
60 Matthewthebig
61 Pocari Sweat
62 Paulw0t
63 mountainyman
64 Diogenes
65 Professional
66 RevHellfire
67 aidan24326
68 Giblet
69 condra
70 Tar.Aldarion
71 Jimoslimos
72 Zaraba
73 Schuhart
74 bonkey
75 Dave!
76 Lazare
77 IFX
78 positron
79 Karl Hungus
80 Sangre
81 GuanYin
82 elivsvonchiaing
83 gosplan
84 Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
85 judomick
86 CiDeRmAn
87 madser
88 insixdays
89 spacecoyote
90 violatom
91 smemon
92 gosimeon
93 kongs99
94 Barnabas
95 So Glad
96 stevejazzx
97 Seloth
98 Kmick
99 FrCrilly
100 Citizen Erased
101 mickoneill30
102 Mitch Connor
103 Kevster
104 DapperGent
105 2Scoops
106 karen3212
107 dan719
108 jonny72
109 Memnoch
110 mossieh
111 fly agaric
112 Conor108
113 Acid Violet
114 Hivemind187
115 Der Kaiser
116 Jeremiah 16:1
117 Tim Robbins
118 The Mad Hatter
119 interestinguser
120 Moose Jam
121 MuiriosaB
122 Galvasean
123 Bisar
124 Ciaran500
125 daithifleming
126 Tzetze
127 pinksoir
128 rockbeer
129 Dimithy
130 Sev
131 col nicholson
132 passive
133 estebancambias
134 nummnutts
135 tritium
136 keano afc
137 Sleepy
138 humanji
139 komodosp
140 The Chessplayer
141 Nerin
142 gillyfromlyre
143 incorkfornow
144 Meadows
145 fatmammycat
146 sdep
147 AngryHippie
148 Charco
149 krusty2101
150 Hot Dog
151 Mr. Incognito
152 HammerHeadGym
153 riftfiend
154 Eschatologist
155 bogwalrus
156 GhostInTheRuins
157 Popinjay
158 Hurin
159 Killbot2000
160 Annatar
161 iUseVi
162 pljudge321
163 Furkin Bastage
164 Mystic Monkey
165 Tim Murphy
166 AtomicHorror
167 Cerebral Cortex
168 gerthewanker
169 MrPudding
170 JimiTime
170 Minder
171 Andy-Pandy
172 Mena
173 Tomk1
174 eoin5
175 Gegerty
176 Sir Molle
177 marco polo
178 Mark Hamill
179 mehfesto2
180 aggresso
181 Flamed Diving
182 Crocoduck Rex
183 garrincha62
184 mthd
185 SwinterTarot
186 Standman
187 Stevimak
188 Jesus Juice
189 Joseph Kuhr
190 anti-venom
191 HouseHippo
192 studiorat
193 jackdaw
194 ironingbored
195 medeame
196 Jimkel
197 Pub07
198 oeb
199 Lucas10101
200 Gareth23
201 Nodin
202 dlofnep
203 kiffer
204 A Primal Nut
205 Deicida
206 MatthewVII
207 MackDeToaster
208 JammyDodger
209 Very Interestin
210 darjeeling
212 Mickeroo
213 Fighting Irish
214 postcynical
215 Valmont
216 WxfrdJay
217 Genghiz Cohen
218 pagancornflake
219 PaintDoctor
220 Gurgle
221 prinz
222 Naz st
223 DublinWriter
224 keane2097
225 ScumLord
226 Woger
227 pts
228 andy1249
229 gaynorvador
230 rarnes1
231 Hamiltonion
232 Caoimhín
234 O'Coonassa
235 Adream
236 Doctor DooM
237 Capt'n Midnight
238 dvpower
239 asdasd
240 Overblood
241 Seamus
242 Ginggangooley
243 CDfm
244 LoveDucati2
245 Helix
246 bren.ryan
247 covey09
248 DTrotter
249 steve3
250 electrogrimey
251 peakpilgrim
252 Hagar
253 goldenbrown
254 togster
255 Gryphonboy
256 qdog
257 DaveMaC
258 andrew
259 DiarmaidGNR
260 Buster2009
261 rbrbrb
262 Malty T
263 fintonie
264 equivariant
265 lugha
266 ozzirt
267 munsterdevil
268 DigiGal
269 panthera
270 smokingman
271 monosharp
272 alfranken
273 Sam Vimes
274 33% God
275 MjcMurfy
276 BumbleBee123
277 krudler
278 offthechain
279 liamw
280 JohnnyBoyDub
281 jpm4
282 Stercus Accidit
283 Mjollinir
284 kayroo
285 doctoremma
286 token56
287 del88
288 Ghost Buster
289 CIE
290 strobe
291 ovceanclub
292 Wacker
293 DogmaticLefty
294 Eros Panties
295 Blank
296 LilyRose
297 SonOfPerdition
298 optogirl
299 smokingman

J C

...and the following 43 people, with a number of notable exceptions, have been, at best, neutral in regard to me and the debate.

1 Danno
2 Wolfsbane
3 BrianCalgary
4 Henry90
5 RiverDeep
6 babyvaio
7 Jakkass
8 Juza1973
9 pipraider
10 PDN
11 tasky
12 Godsword
13 Spyral
14 Splendour
15 Medin
16 kingdomofgod123
17 SubjectSean
18 roadruner
19 Young Catholic
20 Santing
21 Soul Winner
22 thebaldsoprano
23 Shapes
24 nunshaw
25 irish hic85
26 getz
27 JoBlog
28 sukikettle
29 Kely1
30 Pahu
31 Gryphonboy
32 Glenman
33 Fanny Cradock
34 Lovethinking
35 Underbadger
36 Mac Masters
37 antiskeptic
38 Lady Athame
39 man of faith
40 chozometroid
41 Diveonthe12th
42 Livnat
43 ninalucy1985

PDN

J C wrote: »

Here are the 299 Atheists / Evolutionists ... in their order of appearance:-

I think we moderators display a high level of tolerance for your antics in this thread. But, to be honest, labelling some of your fellow Christians as "atheists/evolutionists" is a piece of muppetry too far. Please never do that again if you wish to keep on posting here.

J C

I may have made a mistake in either of the lists - there are so many posters involved.

Could I therefore ask if there is anybody on the first list that isn't either an Atheist or an Evolutionist and who isn't opposed to Creationism in general and me in particular?

Equally, could I ask if anybody on the second list should be included on the first list of outright opponents of mine on this thread.

I apologise if I have included anybody on the wrong list.

iUseVi

J C wrote: »

...and the following 43 people, with a number of notable exceptions, have been, at best, neutral in regard to me and the debate.

1 Danno
2 Wolfsbane
3 BrianCalgary
4 Henry90
5 RiverDeep
6 babyvaio
7 Jakkass
8 Juza1973
9 pipraider
10 PDN
11 tasky
12 Godsword
13 Spyral
14 Splendour
15 Medin
16 kingdomofgod123
17 SubjectSean
18 roadruner
19 Young Catholic
20 Santing
21 Soul Winner
22 thebaldsoprano
23 Shapes
24 nunshaw
25 irish hic85
26 getz
27 JoBlog
28 sukikettle
29 Kely1
30 Pahu
31 Gryphonboy
32 Glenman
33 Fanny Cradock
34 Lovethinking
35 Underbadger
36 Mac Masters
37 antiskeptic
38 Lady Athame
39 man of faith
40 chozometroid
41 Diveonthe12th
42 Livnat
43 ninalucy1985

You have too much time on your hands. Keeping track of all the posters? Wow.

J C

iUseVi wrote: »

You have too much time on your hands. Keeping track of all the posters? Wow.

...aren't computers amazing things!!!!:D:eek:

... anyway, was anybody mis-classified?

iUseVi

J C wrote: »

...aren't computers amazing things!!!!:D:eek:

... anyway, was anybody mis-classified?

Loads I should imagine. Classifying someone as atheist because they accept evolution is one of the more absurd things you have done.

J C

iUseVi wrote: »

Loads I should imagine. Classifying someone as atheist because they accept evolution is one of the more absurd things you have done.

...I didn't do so ... every Atheist I know is an Evolutionist ... and many claim that it allows them to be intellectually satisfied Atheists.

I also know many Theists who are also Evolutionists ... and the first list is made up of the posters who were either Atheists and/or Evolutionists (including Theistic Evolutionists) who have always opposed me in their postings on this thread.

The second list was people who supported me, remained neutral in the debate or who opposed me on some issues and supported me on others.

I am not infallible and there may be some names on the wrong list ... and if there are, I will happily move them onto the neutral / supporter list or vice versa.:D

ISAW

PDN wrote: »

I think we moderators display a high level of tolerance for your antics in this thread. But, to be honest, labelling some of your fellow Christians as "atheists/evolutionists" is a piece of muppetry too far. Please never do that again if you wish to keep on posting here.

Not alone that but the list of 299 "atheists" seems to be people who argue against JC. He obviously has no evidence that these 299 people are atheists . I am aware that some of them are but certainly not all of them! Where does he get off deciding everyone who disagrees with him must be "atheist"?

ISAW

J C wrote: »

...aren't computers amazing things!!!!:D:eek:

... anyway, was anybody mis-classified?

i would suggest most of them were. Where is you r proof that 299 atheists you claim are indeed atheists?