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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)
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Resistance to the disease or the agent are both valid descriptors!!!doctoremma wrote: »No it isn't. Try saying that to a roomful of virologists/microbiologists and see how far you get. I understand that in your non-scientific world of copied snippets, it might be acceptable, but not in the world of biology, sorry.
...the focus of the virologists/microbiologists on the agent would make them naturally refer to the resistance in terms of the agent ... but a roomful of medical doctors, because of their focus on the disease and its symptoms, would be more likely to talk about resistance in terms of the disease.
What is wrong with Evolutionists that they are such nit pickers about irrelevancies??
...shades of those who argue over a Gnat ... but who swallow a Camel, I guess!!!:eek::):D
It is a loss of CSI and genetic Information and this has been objectively determined.doctoremma wrote: »Despite your new knowledge of the biological system that I just outlined for you? Where entirely new pieces of DNA are gained to generate new arrays of proteins? Did you not read what I wrote? You are defining a gain of DNA and subsequent function as a loss of CSI? Repeating that it is a "loss of CSI" doesn't make it true, does it?
How can you define the addition of entirely novel DNA sequences within the immunoglobulin genes which subsequently serve to generate pathogen-fighting antibodies as a "loss of CSI"? Do you understand how unhinged this makes you sound? Do you understand how inconsistent this is?
Touché!!!doctoremma wrote: »Despite your new knowledge of the biological system that I just outlined for you? Where whole new sets of locks/keys are being created by the addition of novel sections of DNA all the time?
You are a mass of contradictions, which might be workable, but you combine it with apparently wanton ignorance and a breathtaking obtuseness.
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It is a loss of CSI and genetic Information and this has been objectively determined.
How? Please define exactly how an increase in genetic information, evidenced by the incorporation of random nucleotides into specific genes, which leads to a newly-functional protein which may allow resistance to a pathogen, is a "loss of CSI".Touché!!!
Seriously, do you know what this means? Because it doesn't mean "straight back at you" which is what you suggest by your pattern of usage.0 -
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Yea, go into the details. You're saying amillennial, but I want your interpritation of the multi-colored statue and all the crazy animals in the prophecy. (Assuming that somebody with an amillennial point of view still agrees that the Daniel prophecies symbolized the world powers throughout history)
(Heads Up: I'm going to disagree but I just want to make sure I'm disagreeing with what people actually believe.
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Babylon; Medo-Persia; Greece; Rome. Both beasts and statue picture the same. The goat and ram I'm not sure of - maybe refer to post-exile times - but I would need to remind myself of what I once knew about this.
The picture ends with the toes of the statue - the final manifestation of Evil Empire, Antichrist's kingdom. The whole thing is smashed by the Rock, Christ at His coming again.
Any help?0 -
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...like I have said, both the Atheist and the Creationist believe that the Universe emerged into this dimenson out of nothing.But if you have no fundamental objection to something appearing from nothing then you have no objection, given that you have nothing to support the idea that something can come from notion only if God does it.
So, like so many times on this thread, you have contradicted yourself.
Laughing at the idea that something came from nothing (not actually the atheist position but anyway....) when that is the foundation of your belief system simply highlights how out of touch you are even with your own beliefs.
By the way, how does God create something out of nothing? What does he create it out of?
And you know there was nothing before the Big Bang how exactly?
The Theist (plausibly) explains this through the actions of a transcendent omnipotent God ... and the Atheist (implausibly) explains it as the action of nothing on nothing!!!!:eek:
'Epic Fail' for the Atheists on this one.:D
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... you're the guy who doesn't know the difference between a disability (i.e. a loss of ability) and a benefit (something that is an advantage).Originally Posted by J C
I accept that some disabilities (like losing the ability to fly on windswept areas where the insect could be swept out to sea and drowned) could aid (local/short-term) survival.
Wicknight
Then by definition it isn't a disability :rolleyes:
What is it with you guys and using the wrong words.
There are some limited situations where a disablity results in a benefit ... but in general disability is also a disadvantage.
... you are confusing the separate concepts of disability and disadvantage!!!Wicknight
We just determined above that it isn't a disability, it in fact enhances the survival of the insect. So don't you mean increasing ability?
In general they go together ... but sometimes they don't ... and the very limited situations where disability has an advantage has the Evolutionists all agog!!!:eek::D
... go figure!!!:eek:
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... once again not a peek out of the Theistic Evoultionists to describe or defend their scientifically invalid and theologically problematical ideas on the 'origins issue'.... OK, as the Theistic Evolutionists seem to have 'lost their tongues' I will start with the basic types of Theistic Evolution (courtesy of Creation Worldview Ministries):-
There are many forms of theistic evolutionism. However, while there are many slightly different versions, they all basically fit into three groups.
The first group is the true deist who says that God may be deduced to exist because the obvious design seen in nature proves there is Designer God. The deist, however, believes that God started it all and then went home to read the newspaper and he has not been back since. This position states that God created the universe, the initial single celled life and He then gave it the intrinsic ability to evolve upward on its own until finally reaching the current state of man's existence. So, here we have God at the beginning only.
The second group contains those theists who believe that God used evolutionary processes over a long period of time in order to achieve the current creation. This group states that God used a screwdriver here, a wrench there and a hammer whenever it was needed and did this over millions and billions of supposed years. So, here we have God throughout the process.
The third group consists of those who are perfectly willing to accept that everything in the universe is self existent and evolved entirely on its own until one day God came walking through the universe and said, “Gee, this would make a perfect place for humans made in My image.” God then created man and woman and placed them into an evolved universe. This placates the person who is willing to accept evolution in total; with the exception that humans are a unique creation of God and man did not evolve from a common primate ancestor. So, here we have God at the end.
... so which group(s) do the Theistic Evolutionists on this thread belong?
... they stay in the 'long grass' only emerging to join the Atheists in challenging me whenever they think I'm under pressure ... only to be driven back along with the Atheists by the force of my arguments!!!
Come on lads and lassies ... tell us how Theistic Evolution 'works' Theologically ... this is the Christianity Forum ... and you keep telling me that Theistic Evolution is so logical that most Christians believe in it ... even though most Christians that I know are Creationists !!!!
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...congratulations!!!!I'm a bit of a late comer to this thread, (and there's not a chance in hell I'm reading through the previous posts), what is the general opinion of the Daniel prophecies by the Christians in here? ...
... Yea, go into the details. You're saying amillennial, but I want your interpritation of the multi-colored statue and all the crazy animals in the prophecy. (Assuming that somebody with an amillennial point of view still agrees that the Daniel prophecies symbolized the world powers throughout history)
(Heads Up: I'm going to disagree but I just want to make sure I'm disagreeing with what people actually believe.)
... you are the 300th Evolutionist to grace this thread with your presence ... and invalid arguments!!!:):eek:
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... a disability is an objectively verifiable fact as it a loss of a particular ability, like your sight example ... and is always a disability irrespective of context.Do you ever get tired of contradicting yourself :rolleyes:
Again if a "disability" is a benefit then it isn't a disability.
The hint is in the word itself. :rolleyes:
A benefit is dependent on context. A disability may be a benefit in one context and a disadvantage in another situation.
A loss of wings is always the disability of being flightless ... whether it is a benefit or not is dependent on whether an insect is, for example, in a windswept area near an open body of water!!!!
...of course such obvious yet subtle differences in words may well be beyond the understanding of an Evolutionist who believes in the obviously ridiculous, yet quite deceptively appealing, notion that Pondkind evolved into Mankind!!!:D:eek:
All Humans suffer from some disability or another ... so the insanity of eugenics lies in the belef that somehow the 'perfect' Human can be achieved through a process of selected breeding and selected sterilisation/contraception/abortion!!!
The Eugenics Movement has had a fair few disasters to it's name including an enforced sterilisation campaign in America right up until the 1950's. Even countries that are suppposed to be models of 'liberalism' got in on the racket.
For example, and I quote from Wikipedia "the Swedish Racial Hygiene Society had been founded in Stockholm in 1909, and the 1934 works by Alva and Gunnar Myrdal was very significant in promoting the eugenic tendencies in practical politics. The authors theorized that the best solution for the Swedish welfare state ("folkhem") was to prevent at the outset the hereditary transfer of undesirable characteristics that caused the individual affected to become sooner or later a burden on society. The authors therefore proposed a "corrective social reform” under which sterilisation was to prevent "unviable individuals” from spreading their undesirable traits. In the later decades it was primarily the mentally ill who were forcibly sterilized.
The swedish eugenistic legislation was enacted in 1934 and wasn't formally abolished until 1976. According to a 2000 governmental report, 21,000 were estimated to have been forcibly sterilized, 6,000 were coerced into a 'voluntary' sterilization while the nature of a further 4,000 cases could not be determined. The Swedish state subsequently paid out damages to many of the victims."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization
One of the more 'hare-brained' eugenics schemes from the 1930's was the storage of semen from men considered to be of 'exceptional talent' in order impregnate as many (willing) women as possible, thereby spreading the supposedly 'good' genes of these supposedly 'exceptional men' around the general population.
Eugenics wasn't without it's moments of 'light relief'. Nobel prizewinner George Bernard Shaw is reputed to have been approached by a Eugenecist woman, who asked him if he would be willing to father a child by her .... she said "with my 'good' looks and your 'good' brains our child would be exceptionally talented"....
George is said to have crustily replied that he could think of a much more unfortunate outcome from such a mating .... the child might have George's less-than-beautiful looks ... and her lack of brains!!!!! 0 -
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Babylon; Medo-Persia; Greece; Rome. Both beasts and statue picture the same. The goat and ram I'm not sure of
Any help?
That's a safe answer. From my own memory all hell breaks loose and common sense breaks down when one tries to apply Daniel prophecies to post Roman empire times.
There's also the king of the North vs the King of the South prophecy. I've seen people suggest that this includes the second and third Reich in addition to the Russians of the cold war.
I'm just not sure if they're universal Christian beliefs??0 -
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...congratulations!!!!
... you are the 300th Evolutionist to grace this thread with your presence ... and invalid arguments!!!:):eek:
Well I don't recall having proposed any arguments yet in this thread.
I'm going to attempt to be ambitious and argue in the realm of Christian logic as opposed to scientific logic. So I'm in uncharted waters here and I'm at a disadvantage.
For once you might be able to 'put an atheist in their place' without ignoring the points they make and going off on loosely related tangents. 0 -
Da 2:31 ¶ "You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening.That's a safe answer. From my own memory all hell breaks loose and common sense breaks down when one tries to apply Daniel prophecies to post Roman empire times.
There's also the king of the North vs the King of the South prophecy. I've seen people suggest that this includes the second and third Reich in addition to the Russians of the cold war.
I'm just not sure if they're universal Christian beliefs??
32 The head of this image was of fine gold, its breast and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,
33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces;
35 then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36 "This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.
37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all--you are the head of gold.
39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.
41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
43 As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
This vision represents the great kingdoms that would rule the known world and pass down their power to each other from Daniel's time until the end of the World.
Babylon is the Golden Head; Medo-Persia is the silver arms and breast; Greece is the bronze belly and tighs; Rome is the legs of iron (which was a prophecy that the Roman Empire would be divided in two) i.e. the western empire based in Rome and the Eastern in Constantinople.
The feet and the ten toes made of iron and clay represent to final World Government that will divide the world into 10 end-time administrative regions.
The entire system is one body i.e. it is one continuous project that is continued throughout history both overtly and covertly.0 -
... you did seem to be arguing that Daniel wasn't valid because of its use of imagery.Well I don't recall having proposed any arguments yet in this thread.
I'm going to attempt to be ambitious and argue in the realm of Christian logic as opposed to scientific logic. So I'm in uncharted waters here and I'm at a disadvantage.
For once you might be able to 'put an atheist in their place' without ignoring the points they make and going off on loosely related tangents.
... and my objective is not to put anybody 'in their place' ... all I am is a sinner witnessing to the unsaved ... that they might be Saved through God's Grace.
Good to see an Atheist taking an interest in Scripture ... and I promise to be as gentle as a Dove ... while always being as wise as a serpent!!!
Mt 10:16 ¶ "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
17 Beware of men; for they will deliver you up to councils, and flog you in their synagogues,
18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them and the Gentiles.
19 When they deliver you up, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour;
20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.0 -
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Da 2:31 ¶ "You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening.
32 The head of this image was of fine gold, its breast and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,
33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces;
35 then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36 "This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.
37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all--you are the head of gold.
39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.
41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
43 As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
This vision represents the great kingdoms that would rule the known world and pass down their power to each other from Daniel's time until the end of the World.
Babylon is the Golden Head; Medo-Persia is the silver arms and breast; Greece is the bronze belly and tighs; Rome is the legs of iron (which was a prophecy that the Roman Empire would be divided in two) i.e. the western empire based in Rome and the Eastern in Constantinople.
The feet and the ten toes made of iron and clay represent to final World Government that will divide the world into 10 end-time administrative regions.
The entire system is one body i.e. it is one continuous project that is continued throughout history both overtly and covertly.
What about the Americans and the British and the Umayyad Caliphate (The Arabs that took over Spain)?
Surely these should deserve a mention in the prophecy?
Which brings the discussion onto the king of the north vs the king of the south.
Giving good sensible interpretations of the Daniel prophecies is a good sanity check for any Christian such as yourself. 0 -
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Like I have said the entire system is one body i.e. it is one continuous project that is continued throughout history both overtly and covertly from Babylon to the present day.What about the Americans and the British and the Umayyad Caliphate (The Arabs that took over Spain)?
Surely these should deserve a mention in the prophecy?
Which brings the discussion onto the king of the north vs the king of the south.
Giving good sensible interpretations of the Daniel prophecies is a good sanity check for any Christian such as yourself.
The Americans and the British are offshoots of the 'western leg' of the Old Roman Empire ... and the Umayyad Caliphate were 'bit players' in the whole thing.
The mixture of clay and iron in the feet and toes indicates that there will be many 'players' taking part and significant irreconcilable differences will also be a key feature of the situation ... but these differences will be accommodated overtly and covertly in order to keep the One World Project going forward ... and sometimes the differences will result in (overt or covert) war due to the 'brittle' nature of the 'accommodation' that is being forged. between the 'iron' (the Roman bit) and the 'clay' (everyone else).0
This discussion has been closed.
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