The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

J C

smokingman wrote: »

Seriously? Wow, wasn't expecting that....especially given caucasians and aisan people share dna with them...maybe there's an oldie in all of us eh?

... if we give it enough time there will indeed be an oldie in all of us!!!:):D

smokingman

J C wrote: »

... if we give it enough time there will indeed be an oldie in all of us!!!:):D

...or if your an alter boy...

J C

smokingman wrote: »

...or if your an alter boy...

... yes indeed, all altar boys eventually become oldies themselves ... if they live long enough!!!:D

J C

gosplan wrote: »

... I'm itching to get started 'providing evidence' for Materialistic Evolution by basically pointing out evidence against Creationism and a literal interpretation of the bible.

... whatever!!!!:D

gosplan wrote: »

While you're at it JC, could you tell me whenabouts exactly the flood was when the population of the earth was reduced to 8 - there should be something that doesn't add up in that one.

... the flood was worldwide ... and covered the whole Earth. In this regard do bear in mind that if the surface of the Earth was smooth with no mountains or ocean troughs, there is enough seawater today to cover the entire planet to an average depth of 2.7 Kilometres (or 1.6 miles). The great water movements of the Flood created and sorted the material that eventually formed the sedimentary and metamorphic rocks that we observe today. The great mountain ranges and ocean troughs that we see today were also formed by enormous seismic shifts during this period.

gosplan wrote: »

Also, no-one has any actual proof of supernatural powers in any way shape or form, right?

... science can conclude that a mind of inordinate intelligence produced the CSI observed in living organisms ... whether the intelligence was the God of the Bible is an issue that science cannot currently answer.

However, the circumstantial evidence that links this intelligence with the God of the Bible is very strong ... and this is the reason why Materialists are so 'twitchy' over the fact that an intelligence was involved in the process.
If they ever admit that an intelligence was involved in the creation of life, this would signal the death-knell of their Materialism ... so they therefore refuse to allow a Divine (or intelligent) foot inside the doors of their scientific institutions!!!!:D
While it is understandable that Materialists would do this ... the active support given to them on this issue by Theists is quite baffling!!!

"We take the side of (Evolutionist) science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." (Richard Lewontin, 'Billions and billions of demons", The New York Review, January 9, 1997, p. 31)

.

smokingman

J C wrote: »

... whatever!!!!:D

... the flood was worldwide ... and covered the whole Earth. In this regard do bear in mind that if the surface of the Earth was smooth with no mountains or ocean troughs, there is enough seawater today to cover the entire planet to an average depth of 2.7 Kilometres (or 1.6 miles). The great water movements of the Flood created and sorted the material that eventually formed the sedimentary and metamorphic rocks that we observe today. The great mountain ranges and ocean troughs that we see today were also formed by enormous seismic shifts during this period.


.

Ok so, just to understand this a bit more....
You're saying the world was flat, then the flood came and then we had mountains. This was what, 10,000 years ago or something like that yeah?

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

The great mountain ranges and ocean troughs that we see today were also formed by enormous seismic shifts during this period.

In Jeremiah 4:23-28 (see below) he sees the earth when it had became a waste and a desolation (Genesis 1:2 i.e. before the flood) and that there were mountains and hills??? He also sees fruitful places that became wilderness places and that there were cities (???) which were broken down and also that there was no man (literally Adam or descendants of Adam) but there were birds, and that it was at a time when the heavens became black (literally dark) suggesting a time just prior to this when they were not always so, in other words this is a past tense vision, not a future tense one.

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form (tohoo - i.e. a waste, same word as in Genesis 1:2) , and void (bohoo - i.e. desolate); and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end (created Adam and Eve to replenish the earth?) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it." Jeremiah 4:23-28 (Emphasis and text in brackets mine.)

So if this vision was of the earth at a time when there was no man then that mens that whatever Jeremiah was seeing was either before God created Adam or a future time when there will be no man on earth. So if we assume that it was a past tense vision then how do you explain these mountains if as you say there was no mountains before the flood? I don't think in this instance Jeremiah uses mountains and hills as metaphors for anything else, if you read the passage above you'll see that if mountains and hills are metaphors for something else then everything in those verse must be metaphor too, so what are they metaphors for if that is the case?

And who lived in these cities if no man or descendants of Adam existed? And how come there were fruitful places if the way some people understand Genesis 1:1-2 is as if God was creating the earth as though the earth started out as being without form and void? I believe that the only explanation for this is that there must have been a gap of time (not sure how long) between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, that during this time period certain things were happening on this earth that are simply not recorded in Genesis.

Genesis 1:1-2 which can be rendered as follows:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth became a waste and desolation."

Plus Isaiah 45:18 states clearly that God did not create the earth to be a waste:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (tohoo - same as Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18 (Emphasis and text in brackets mine)

I'm telling ya there's a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. It could be a vast gulf of time or only a few hundred years but with the help of other scriptures we can be sure that this is a gap of unrecorded (in the Bible anyway) time.


If this is the case then it would make sense of a lot of other anomalies that we find all over the world today like Tiahuanaco in Bolivia which some have dated to be 14,000 years old, where there is plausible evidence for one of these cities that Jeremiah referred to, where somebody was able quarry 100 to 400 tonne stones blocks and carry them to heights of over 12,000 feet above sea level. No man can do that today without the aid of modern day machinery and even with modern machinery it is no mean feat if its even possible at all. So who was able to do it way back when? Where they human? They were certainly intelligent and very powerful.

Anyway in relation to your mountains theory I think it's all wet (pardon the pun) or else whatever Jeremiah was seeing can somehow be explained as metaphor (which I would like to hear btw) or else it is a future tense vision. But I doubt that it is a future tense vision because in the vision there was no man (descendants from Adam). And we know from the Bible that there will always be man, because its with man that God makes His Tabernacle in whom He will dwell in His new creation forever.

J C

smokingman wrote: »

Ok so, just to understand this a bit more....
You're saying the world was flat, then the flood came and then we had mountains. This was what, 10,000 years ago or something like that yeah?

... the world wasn't flat ... but it is thought that the Ante-diluvian world had less exteme topography that todays Earth i.e. the mountains were lower than today and the oceans were shallower and with a more even depth. In addition, it is also though that there were much greater quantities of sub-terrenean water that is currently the case ... the great artesian basins of the World are but a small remnant of the much more extensive Ante-diluvian system.
Of course the surface of the Earth wasn't smooth before the Flood ... otherwise the Ante-diluvian World would have been completely covered with water!!!:D

Soul Winner

More interesting stuff about mountains

What do folk make of this guy's ideas about a growing earth? I think it is a very interesting theory for which you have has some strong points.

Note this process sped up but the real time it takes is in the hundreds of millions and millions of years so no he's not a YEC or even an OEC, I'm not even sure if he's a Christian.

Tell us what yous think anyway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kL7qDeI05U

More Here

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

More interesting stuff about mountains

What do folk make of this guy's ideas about a growing earth?

If that isn't a piss take that guy is a freaking moron.

India "floated" across the ocean and "crashed" into Asia? Er, no. Just like a Creationist he totally misrepresents the current scientific theory.

The tectonic plate that India is on ("India" is simply the land mass of the tectonic plate that is above sea leave) is moving over the molten core of the Earth which is not solid. It is very very very slowly pushing against the tectonic plate of Asia causing the Himalaya to form.

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

If that isn't a piss take that guy is a freaking moron.

India "floated" across the ocean and "crashed" into Asia? Er, no. Just like a Creationist he totally misrepresents the current scientific theory.

The tectonic plate that India is on ("India" is simply the land mass of the tectonic plate that is above sea leave) is moving over the molten core of the Earth which is not solid. It is very very very slowly pushing against the tectonic plate of Asia causing the Himalaya to form.

Can I ask you something? Is it a written rule that as an atheist posting on public fora that you just have to squeeze in the word Creationist somewhere in your post to make it sound like the point your making has the default position of being right?

J C

m

Soul Winner wrote: »

In Jeremiah 4:23-28 (see below) he sees the earth when it had became a waste and a desolation (Genesis 1:2 i.e. before the flood) and that there were mountains and hills??? He also sees fruitful places that became wilderness places and that there were cities (???) which were broken down and also that there was no man (literally Adam or descendants of Adam) but there were birds, and that it was at a time when the heavens became black (literally dark) suggesting a time just prior to this when they were not always so, in other words this is a past tense vision, not a future tense one.

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form (tohoo - i.e. a waste, same word as in Genesis 1:2) , and void (bohoo - i.e. desolate); and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end (created Adam and Eve to replenish the earth?) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it." Jeremiah 4:23-28 (Emphasis and text in brackets mine.)

... I think you should bear in mind that Jeremiah was a prophet ... and these passages are prophesying the persecution of the Jews and their dispersal ... and they are implying that the dispersal will be so complete that it will resemble the Earth on the First Day of Creation before any life existed !!!:)

Soul Winner wrote: »

Genesis 1:1-2 which can be rendered as follows:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth became a waste and desolation."

Plus Isaiah 45:18 states clearly that God did not create the earth to be a waste:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (tohoo - same as Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18 (Emphasis and text in brackets mine)

Gen 1:1-5 is a description of the first day of Creation. Isaiah was stating the obvious ... that God didn't create the Earth to be a waste ... but it was 'without form and void' when it was first Created.

Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 ¶ Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day

Soul Winner wrote: »

I'm telling ya there's a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. It could be a vast gulf of time or only a few hundred years but with the help of other scriptures we can be sure that this is a gap of unrecorded (in the Bible anyway) time.

... there is no gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 ... nor is any gap logically required (either theologically or scientifically!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

If this is the case then it would make sense of a lot of other anomalies that we find all over the world today like Tiahuanaco in Bolivia which some have dated to be 14,000 years old, where there is plausible evidence for one of these cities that Jeremiah referred to, where somebody was able quarry 100 to 400 tonne stones blocks and carry them to heights of over 12,000 feet above sea level. No man can do that today without the aid of modern day machinery and even with modern machinery it is no mean feat if its even possible at all. So who was able to do it way back when? Where they human? They were certainly intelligent and very powerful.

... some of these amazing structures are thought to be Ante-diluvian ... and because of their massive size and excellent construction they have survived the Flood processes ... with various degrees of damage.

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

m... I think you should bear in mind that Jeremiah was a prophet ... and these passages are prophesying the persecution of the Jews and their dispersal ... and they are implying that the dispersal will be so complete that it will resemble the Earth on the First Day of Creation before any life existed !!!:)

Somehow I doubt it. Jeremiah gave manys a dark and dreary prophecy against the Jews of his day and never used such language. But assuming that this is what he was doing, how is what he said supposed to make any sense to them? And even if you're right, the Jews were carried off into bondage and punished anyway, but none of what Jeremiah said came to pass as a result. Which means that he failed the Deuteronomic test of what a prophet is supposed to be, i.e. that what he says should come to pass if he is truly speaking from God, Deuteronomy 18:22. If what you say is true then that did not happen in this case. So either Jeremiah wasn't a true prophet of God or this wasn't a prophecy to the Jews, it was just a vision of the past when the earth was inhabited by beings other than man.

J C wrote: »

Gen 1:1-5 is a description of the first day of creation. Isaiah was stating the obvious ... that God didn't create the Earth to be a waste ... but it was 'without form and void' when it was first Created.

This verse can just as easily be translated "And the earth became a waste and a desolation." What is being describe from Genesis 1:2 onwards is a recreation process, which is why God commands Adam and Eve to re-plenish the earth, suggesting that there was a previous plenishing at one time.

J C wrote: »

... there is no gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 ... nor is any gap logically required (either theologically or scientifically!!!

It's not logically required but it is there nonetheless. "No prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20). We have other scriptures (as already pointed out) which support the position that a gap between Geness 1:1 and 1:2 can be inferred.

J C wrote: »

... some of these amazing structures are thought to be Ante-diluvian ... and because of their massive size and excellent construction they have survived the Flood processes.

I agree, antediluvian and possibly ante-Genesis 1:2 as well. Whatever was able to quarry and carry 100 - 400 tonne blocks of stone to a height of 12,000 plus feet had to be superhuman in nature. Who were these guys?

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

Somehow I doubt it. Jeremiah gave manys a dark and dreary prophecy against the Jews of his day and never used such language. But assuming that this is what he was doing, how is what he said supposed to make any sense to them? And even if you're right, the Jews were carried off into bondage and punished anyway, but none of what Jeremiah said came to pass as a result. Which means that he failed the Deuteronomic test of what a prophet is supposed to be, i.e. that what he says should come to pass if he is truly speaking from God, Deuteronomy 18:22. If what you say is true then that did not happen in this case. So either Jeremiah wasn't a true prophet of God or this wasn't a prophecy to the Jews, it was just a vision of the past when the earth was inhabited by beings other than man.

... this is yet another of Jeremiah's "dark and dreary prophecy against the Jews of his day" ...
... so let's examine verses leading into an out of Jeremiah 4:23-28 (my comments are in red):-
Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
Here Jeremiah is accusing Jerusalem (and the Isrealites) of engaging in spiritual wickedness.
15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.
16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.
17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.
In the above three verses Jeremiah is pointing out that it is not just Jeremiah himself who is saying this ... but people in surrounding nations have also noted the rebellion of Jerusalem against their God.
18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.
Here he is saying 'you have brought this punishment upon yourselves'
19 ¶ My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Here Jeremiah is predicting the elimination of the Israelite control of Jerusalem through war and invasion.
22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
... and here he gives the reason for the punishment ... their evil doings and their rejection of the knowledge of God.
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Here Jeremiah describes the coming punishment and dispersal of the Jews in apocalyptic terms ... and he compares it to the the First Day of Creation before any life existed ... but with the promise that the entire Jewish Nation will not be wiped out!!!

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.
31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
Yet more apocalyptic prophecy.

Soul Winner wrote: »

This verse can just as easily be translated "And the earth became a waste and a desolation."

... no it cannot!!!
The correct translation (KJV) is "Ge 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
Your translation doesn't make any sense ... the Earth couldn't become a wasteland ... when it still didn't have any life on Day One of Creation.

Soul Winner wrote: »

What is being described from Genesis 1:2 onwards is a recreation process, which is why God commands Adam and Eve to re-plenish the earth, suggesting that there was a previous plenishing at one time.

... what is described in Genesis is the Creation process!!!
Ge 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
... it is quite clear that this is a once-off process starting with Creation.

Soul Winner wrote: »

It's not logically required but it is there nonetheless. "No prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20). We have other scriptures (as already pointed out) which support the position that a gap between Geness 1:1 and 1:2 can be inferred.

... I am pointing out that the verses in Jeremiah are prophecy ... and you are claiming that they aren't prophecy ... but instead, they bizzarely describe a 'gap' in Genesis. This makes no sense ... if there was a Gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 ... why would God wait to refer to it obscurely within passages of prophecy in Jermiah???
A plain reading of the texts indicates that there is no gap ... and Jeremiah was using the analogy of Day One of Creation to indicate that the Jewish dispersal would be so complete that it would resemble the Earth on the First Day of Creation before any life existed !!!!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

I agree, antediluvian and possibly ante-Genesis 1:2 as well. Whatever was able to quarry and carry 100 - 400 tonne blocks of stone to a height of 12,000 plus feet had to be superhuman in nature. Who were these guys?

... they were the Ante-diluvian descendents of Adam & Eve ... and they were high-tech, high-spec, dudes ... their only problem was that they became irredeemably evil !!!!
It also explains how Noah (who also had access to these advanced technologies) was able to construct an Ark on a scale that would seriously challenge nautical engineers today.:)

antiskeptic

Soul Winner wrote: »

Whatever was able to quarry and carry 100 - 400 tonne blocks of stone to a height of 12,000 plus feet had to be superhuman in nature.

Not necessarily. The Western Stone in the Western Wall in Jerusalem weighs in at 500+ tonnes but was quarried and placed by ordinary men. Not to belittle the task but all you really need are lots of men + time and you'll shift just about anything.

Soul Winner

antiskeptic wrote: »

Not necessarily. The Western Stone in the Western Wall in Jerusalem weighs in at 500+ tonnes but was quarried and placed by ordinary men. Not to belittle the task but all you really need are lots of men + time and you'll shift just about anything.

J C I will respond to your posted later just a quick reply to Antiskeptic here, have to dash out shortly.

The Temple in Jerusalem was built two to three thousand years ago and the stones that were used in this temple were quarried not far from site, plus the andesite was uphill from the Temple site making the transport of these stones difficult but nothing compared to Tiahuanaco because the nearest andesite to that site was 50 miles away, an equivalent distance of say from Dublin to Arklow. Plus the Temple builders had the help of Greek craftsmen, technology and builders. Tiahuanaco was supposedly built 14,000 years ago by primitive people with primitive tools who quarried their stones and carried them for over 50 miles and then up hill for over 12,000 feet above sea level. How did they do it and who were they?

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

J C I will respond to your posted later just a quick reply to Antiskeptic here, have to dash out shortlu.

The Temple in Jerusalem was built two to three thousand years ago and the stones that were used in this temple were quarried not far from site, plus the andesite was uphill from the Temple site making the transport of these stones difficult but nothing compared to Tiahuanaco because the nearest andesite to that site was 50 miles away, an equivalent distance of say from Dublin to Arklow. Plus the Temple builders had the help of Greek craftsmen, technology and builders. Tiahuanaco was supposedly built 14,000 years ago by primitive people with primitive tools who quarried their stones and carried them for over 50 miles and then up hill for over 12,000 feet above sea level. How did they do it and who were they?

... the thing is ... they weren't 'primitive people with primitive tools' ... this is an Evolutionist myth ... they were highly intelligent, physically strong, almost perfect physical specimens of Humanity!!!

They built many cities and were the first Global Civilisation!!!
Unfortunately, the excellence of their technology wasn't matched by the goodness of their morality/spirituality ... and their depravity was so great that God pronounced the following terrible condemnation upon every one of them (except Noah):-
Ge 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 ¶ And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

... this is yet another of Jeremiah's "dark and dreary prophecy against the Jews of his day" ...
... so let's examine verses leading into an out of Jeremiah 4:23-28 (my comments are in red):-
Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
Here Jeremiah is accusing Jerusalem (and the Isrealites) of engaging in spiritual wickedness.
15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.
16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.
17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.
In the above three verses Jeremiah is pointing out that it is not just Jeremiah himself who is saying this ... but people in surrounding nations have also noted the rebellion of Jerusalem against their God.
18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.
Here he is saying 'you have brought this punishment upon yourselves'
19 ¶ My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Here Jeremiah is predicting the elimination of the Israelite control of Jerusalem through war and invasion.
22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
... and here he gives the reason for the punishment ... their evil doings and their rejection of the knowledge of God.

I have no problems with that at all.

But the below verses obviously have nothing to do with what goes before these verses or after them simply by virtue of what is being said

Jerimiah 4:23-27 wrote:

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

J C wrote: »

...Here Jeremiah describes the coming punishment and dispersal of the Jews in apocalyptic terms ... and he compares it to the the First Day of Creation before any life existed ... but with the promise that the entire Jewish Nation will not be wiped out!!!

But that is my point. The punishment that they received looked nothing like what he describes in the above verses. The heavens still shone forth their light. There was still Jews living in Judah during this time so how come Jeremiah says that there was no man? Like I said it just doesn't fit what happened, which means that he must have been describing another scene altogether, and then goes back to speaking about the Jews from verse 29 on wards.

We find this kind of prophetic writing in other verses of scripture. For example we read in Ezekiel 28 a prophecy concerning the King of Tyre, a prophecy that is addressing the earthly King up to verse 10. Then from verse 11 to 28 it is blatantly obvious that the prophecy (although proclaimed to the King of Tyre) is obviously meant to go through him to the real ruler of Tyre, whom according to the prophecy was in Eden and was perfect and blameless until iniquity was found in him. Was the historical king of Tyre in Eden? Was he perfect at one point? Was he a Cherub? No to all. The prophecy jumps from the earthly ruler to the wicked spiritual force behind the puppet king. The same thing happens in Jeremiah 4:23-27 and if you re-read that whole chapter again you will see this. Otherwise what Jeremiah prophesied against the Jews did not come to pass therefore making him a false prophet.

Jerimiah wrote:

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Did the heavens only turn black after this punishment of the Jews? Or did that happen long before that?

J C wrote: »

... no it cannot!!!
The correct translation (KJV) is "Ge 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
Your translation doesn't make any sense ... the Earth couldn't become a wasteland ... when it still didn't have any life on Day One of Creation.

Yes it can. The Hebrew word translated was in Genesis 1:2 is Hayah which according to Strong's exhaustive concordance means thus:

become, altogether, accomplished, committed, like, break, cause,
A primitive root (compare hava'); to exist, i.e. Be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) -- beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.

You are the right when you say that the earth at this time was void and without form but that does not mean that it always was like this. Isaiah specifically points out that God did not create it to be a waste but to be inhabited. So if as you say it was created a waste then that Isaiah prophecy is wrong. Lets use a logical approach. Imagine that God did intend to create the earth to be inhabited, then what happened to make the earth void and without form? Did God create it first without form and void deliberately and then decide to reform it to make it habitable? It just doesn't make any sense. What I believe happened is that the earth was previously inhabited by beings but not mankind as we know it. These beings (whomever they may be) got off the track and rebelled against God and God destroyed them with a flood and started over in Genesis 1 by hovering over the deep (caused by this particular flood) and created Adam and Eve. How come, during this supposedly new creation, there was a deep for God's spirit to hover over? A deep suggest water. Genesis just doesn't make sense if we view it as a new creation process, but it does make sense if we view it as a re-creation process, again making sense of God's command to Adam and Eve to re-plenish the earth.

J C wrote: »

... what is described in Genesis is the Creation process!!!
Ge 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
... it is quite clear that this is a once-off process starting with Creation.

This can also be interpreted as a re-creation process given what I have posted above concerning the word translated was in Genesis 1:2.

J C wrote: »

... I am pointing out that the verses in Jeremiah are prophecy ... and you are claiming that they aren't prophecy ... but instead, they bizzarely describe a 'gap' in Genesis. This makes no sense ... if there was a Gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 ... why would God wait to refer to it obscurely within passages of prophecy in Jermiah???

They don't describe the gap, rather they describe events that took place at some point in earth's history, that as far as I can see, could only have happened during a time gap that elapsed after Genesis 1:1 but prior to Genesis 1:2. Just because that rattles the cage of some traditional Christian beliefs with regards to Genesis does not mean it's wrong.

J C wrote: »

A plain reading of the texts indicates that there is no gap ... and Jeremiah was using the analogy of Day One of Creation to indicate that the Jewish dispersal would be so complete that it would resemble the Earth on the First Day of Creation before any life existed !!!!!!

A plain reading of how the verse is translated in the English does indicate that no gap is present, but is that the right way to judge it? A closer look at the Hebrew words involved does allow for the possibility of a gap. And if there really is no gap then what Jeremiah saw was a false vision of what actually happened to the Jews.

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

... the thing is ... they weren't 'primitive people with primitive tools' ... this is an Evolutionist myth ... they were highly intelligent, physically strong, almost perfect physical specimens of Humanity!!!

If Darwinian evolution is true then it couldn't have been primitive man who built these monuments 4000 to 14,000 years ago. So if that is the case then, who did build them? If it was man who built them, then they were pretty advanced men to say the least, in fact more advanced than we are today in many respects, because even with our modern day technology we cannot duplicate what they were able to achieve way back when. So if they were more advance than us then what happened to mankind that stumped this progressive development? Why does he peak at such a distant time in the past, then go into a slump and only start to rise again after many thousands of years?

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

If Darwinian evolution is true then it couldn't have been primitive man who built these monuments 4000 to 14,000 years ago. So if that is the case then, who did build them? If it was man who built them, then they were pretty advanced men to say the least, in fact more advanced than we are today in many respects, because even with our modern day technology we cannot duplicate what they were able to achieve way back when. So if they were more advance than us then what happened to mankind that stumped this progressive development? Why does he peak at such a distant time in the past, then go into a slump and only start to rise again after many thousands of years?

... your entire point fails, because Darwinian Evolution isn't true ... and therefore sophisticated societies can and do degenerate ... due to war, ecological disaster, disease, moral/social collapse, etc.!!

Why do you continue to believe in the myth of 'upwards and onwards evolution' ... of 'primitive man' slowly giving rise to so-called 'civilised man' ... when the physical evidence indicates that the very opposite occurred???

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

But that is my point. The punishment that they received looked nothing like what he describes in the above verses. The heavens still shone forth their light. There was still Jews living in Judah during this time so how come Jeremiah says that there was no man? Like I said it just doesn't fit what happened, which means that he must have been describing another scene altogether, and then goes back to speaking about the Jews from verse 29 on wards.

We find this kind of prophetic writing in other verses of scripture. For example we read in Ezekiel 28 a prophecy concerning the King of Tyre, a prophecy that is addressing the earthly King up to verse 10. Then from verse 11 to 28 it is blatantly obvious that the prophecy (although proclaimed to the King of Tyre) is obviously meant to go through him to the real ruler of Tyre, whom according to the prophecy was in Eden and was perfect and blameless until iniquity was found in him. Was the historical king of Tyre in Eden? Was he perfect at one point? Was he a Cherub? No to all. The prophecy jumps from the earthly ruler to the wicked spiritual force behind the puppet king. The same thing happens in Jeremiah 4:23-27 and if you re-read that whole chapter again you will see this. Otherwise what Jeremiah prophesied against the Jews did not come to pass therefore making him a false prophet.

... these are examples of recalling previous events to make a point ...
... in the case of Jeremiah ... by comparing the prophecised destruction and dispersal of the Jews to the uninhabited the Earth during Day One of Creationrebellion of and fal
... and in the case of Ezekiel it compares the Prince of Tyre prior to his fall from grace with the CHERUB that guarded the gates of Paradise, and kept the way of the tree of life; or to one of the cherubs whose wings, spread out, covered the mercy-seat.

Soul Winner wrote: »

They don't describe the gap, rather they describe events that took place at some point in earth's history, that as far as I can see, could only have happened during a time gap that elapsed after Genesis 1:1 but prior to Genesis 1:2. Just because that rattles the cage of some traditional Christian beliefs with regards to Genesis does not mean it's wrong.

... it doesn't rattle any cages ... but it does 'add' to scripture something that isn't in it!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

A plain reading of how the verse is translated in the English does indicate that no gap is present, but is that the right way to judge it? A closer look at the Hebrew words involved does allow for the possibility of a gap. And if there really is no gap then what Jeremiah saw was a false vision of what actually happened to the Jews.

God says what He means and means what He says ... so a plain reading is the correct approach to interpreting Scripture.
Jeremiah exposes the wickedness in Judah and proclaims the certainty of Jerusalem’s destruction which was fulfilled most dramatically in the 70-year Babylonian Captivity of God’s people. "The captivity of Judah," says Dr. Foakes-Jackson (Biblical History of the Hebrews, 316) "is one of the greatest events in the history of religion. .... With the captivity the history of Israel ends, and the history of the Jews commences."
The Babylonian Captivity is foretold here :-
Jer 25:11 'And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12 'Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says the LORD; 'and I will make it a perpetual desolation.

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

... your entire point fails, because Darwinian Evolution isn't true ... and therefore sophisticated societies can and do degenerate ... due to war, ecological disaster, disease, moral/social collapse, etc.!!

Why do you continue to believe in the myth of 'upwards and onwards evolution' ... of 'primitive man' slowly giving rise to so-called 'civilised man' ... when the physical evidence indicates that the very opposite occurred???

J C I'm with you when it comes to Darwinian evolution. There are too many things that cannot be explained by Darwinian evolution and the points I was making above were demonstrations of that fact. Obviously my sarcasm was lost on you brother

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

... these are examples of recalling previous events to make a point ...
... in the case of Jeremiah ... by comparing the prophecised destruction and dispersal of the Jews to the uninhabited the Earth during Day One of Creationrebellion of and fal
... and in the case of Ezekiel it compares the Prince of Tyre prior to his fall from grace with the CHERUB that guarded the gates of Paradise, and kept the way of the tree of life; or to one of the cherubs whose wings, spread out, covered the mercy-seat.


... it doesn't rattle any cages ... but it does 'add' to scripture something that isn't in it!!!


God says what He means and means what He says ... so a plain reading is the correct approach to interpreting Scripture.
Jeremiah exposes the wickedness in Judah and proclaims the certainty of Jerusalem’s destruction which was fulfilled most dramatically in the 70-year Babylonian Captivity of God’s people. "The captivity of Judah," says Dr. Foakes-Jackson (Biblical History of the Hebrews, 316) "is one of the greatest events in the history of religion. .... With the captivity the history of Israel ends, and the history of the Jews commences."
The Babylonian Captivity is foretold here :-
Jer 25:11 'And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12 'Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says the LORD; 'and I will make it a perpetual desolation.

OK it is obvious that no matter what I say I will not be able to convince you of the gap but be that as it may I don't think that it is something that two brothers in Christ should fall out over. But I am not adding anything to the scripture, I'm just using the words that were used by the prophets themselves to make my point. I think that postulating a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 would explain a lot of things but like I said be that as it may its not something worth falling out over. It doesn't really matter who's right or whose wrong anyway, what matters is that we both recognize Jesus as LORD and Master and we should never forget that. Theological and interpretive differences have done enough damage to the body of Christ already, I still regard you as my brother in Christ as I do all the other Christians on boardsie.

Edit: Except the girls, they're my sisters

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

OK it is obvious that no matter what I say I will not be able to convince you of the gap but be that as it may I don't think that it is something that two brothers in Christ should fall out over. But I am not adding anything to the scripture, I'm just using the words that were used by the prophets themselves to make my point. I think that postulating a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 would explain a lot of things but like I said be that as it may its not something worth falling out over. It doesn't really matter who's right or whose wrong anyway, what matters is that we both recognize Jesus as LORD and Master and we should never forget that. Theological and interpretive differences have done enough damage to the body of Christ already, I still regard you as my brother in Christ as I do all the other Christians on boardsie.

Edit: Except the girls, they're my sisters

... the Politically Correct 'brigade' ... will probably start calling us 'siblings'!!!!:D:)

... whatever about somebody's 'origins position' the most important thing is of course to be a Saved Christian!!!!

BTW are you Saved?

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

BTW are you Saved?

In my present state I'm like how Paul describes us in 1 Corinthians 13:12, "For now (present state of being saved) we see through a glass darkly, but then (actual saved state) face to face, now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

But like Paul I must continue steadfast the way I got started right up to the end. As a runner must finish a marathon so that he can say he has completed it, I too must do what Paul did, keep fighting the good fight of faith, and finish my course, - 2 Timothy 4:7. Only those who overcome to the end shall He give authority over the nations. Revelation 2:26. In short, I'm not saved yet, but I am being saved as long as I stay connected to God through daily acts of faith in His Word of promise. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. Oops I feel another debate coming on

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

In my present state I'm like how Paul describes us in 1 Corinthians 13:12, "For now (present state of being saved) we see through a glass darkly, but then (actual saved state) face to face, now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

But like Paul I must continue steadfast the way I got started right up to the end. As a runner must finish a marathon so that he can say he has completed it, I too must do what Paul did, keep fighting the good fight of faith, and finish my course, - 2 Timothy 4:7. Only those who overcome to the end shall He give authority over the nations. Revelation 2:26. In short, I'm not saved yet, but I am being saved as long as I stay connected to God through daily acts of faith in His Word of promise. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. Oops I feel another debate coming on

... so do you believe that you are saved due to your own works/merits then?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

... good works are a symptom of Salvation ... and not it's cause!!!:)

... and even though the fallen Human in us would like to think that we can save ourselves / continue to save ourselves by our own good works ... we have no basis for such pride in our own importance.

ONLY Jesus Christ can Save you when you, as an undeserving sinner, humbly ask Him to do so.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
.

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

... so do you believe that you are saved due to your own works/merits then?

Heck no. Read some of my replies in this thread and see.

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

Soul Winner wrote:

Tiahuanaco was supposedly built 14,000 years ago

even with our modern day technology we cannot duplicate what they were able to achieve way back when.

Ever seen a lorry? :rolleyes:

Soul Winner

robindch wrote: »

Ever seen a lorry? :rolleyes:

One big frickin lorry. Anyway, I'll grant you that, but how were these primitive savages supposedly able to do it?

And just to give us some scale of what we are talking about. The pics below shows what 500+ tonnes in weight looks like. How were they able to haul these blocks over mountainous terrain for over 50 miles and then up a mountain over 12,000 feet above sea level?



For scale:

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by Soul Winner
In short, I'm not saved yet, but I am being saved as long as I stay connected to God through daily acts of faith in His Word of promise.


Originally Posted by J C
... so do you believe that you are saved due to your own works/merits then?


Soul Winner
Heck no. Read some of my replies in this thread and see.

... saying that you are "being saved as long as I stay connected to God through daily acts of faith in His Word of promise"... is Salvation through (good) works!!!!

Jesus Saves all who believe on Him through grace ... i.e. unconditionally!!!

... if Salvation is not gained through works ... it is not lost through works ... or lack thereof either!!!

... like I have said, good works are a symptom of Salvation ... and not it's cause!!!

gosplan

J C wrote: »

... the thing is ... they weren't 'primitive people with primitive tools' ... this is an Evolutionist myth ... they were highly intelligent, physically strong, almost perfect physical specimens of Humanity!!!

They built many cities and were the first Global Civilisation!!!
Unfortunately, the excellence of their technology wasn't matched by the goodness of their morality/spirituality ... and their depravity was so great that God pronounced the following terrible condemnation upon every one of them (except Noah):-
Ge 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 ¶ And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

sorry, away for a few days. What else is pre-flood?