The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

J C

robindch wrote: »

Funny, that could be about creationists too!

... it certainly could be about Evolutionists ... with bells on it!!!:):D

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

I wonder what Paul would make of that??

He'd probably say something like this:

"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. (I pray this for you J C) Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern (if they were already saved they wouldn't need a pattern to live by) we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will (future tense) transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

Philippians 3:7-20

... none of the above indicates that Paul didn't believe that he was Saved ... he merely didn't want to 'let himself down' before men ... when Jesus had already Saved him!!!

... here is more of what Paul had to say about the certainty of salvation :-
Ac 16:28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here."
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Soul Winner wrote: »

That does not sound like Paul thought he was actually saved either. That does not sound like Paul is lying on the beach glorying in his already saved state. He thanks and praises God always for opening the door whereby he might be saved, but even that great apostle of our LORD did not view himself as already saved. Thet text above proves that without question. So although I don't consider myself as already saved yet, I'm in good company as you can see.

... if you are not Saved then you are not 'in good company!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Do you honestly think that somebody like me could come on here and express what I express about God's Word and Jesus could do that without already haven taken that very very basic step in Christ at some point and who continues to do it on daily basis? I fear for your spirit of discernment sometimes.

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

Jesus is LORD!!!

... the 'acid test' for Salvation is making a faith commitment to Jesus Christ to Save you ... once you do that you will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit ... and the fruits of your Salvation will be evident to everybody!!!

... your Salvation is a matter between yourself and Jesus ... and if you are saying that you aren't Saved ... then it would seem that you aren't Saved ... so I guess it it time that you made that call ... and believed on Jesus Christ to Save you!!!:D

Mt 7:21 ¶ "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,
29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

... none of the above indicates that Paul didn't believe that he was Saved ... he merely didn't want to 'let himself down' before men ... when Jesus had already Saved him!!!

... here is more of what Paul had to say about the certainty of salvation :-
Ac 16:28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here."
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.


... if you are not Saved then you are not 'in good company!!!


... the 'acid test' for Salvation is making a faith commitment to Jesus Christ to Save you ... once you do that you will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit ... and the fruits of your Salvation will be evident to everybody!!!

... your Salvation is a matter between yourself and Jesus ... and if you are saying that you aren't Saved ... then it would seem that you aren't Saved ... so I guess it it time that you made that call ... and believed on Jesus Christ to Save you!!!:D

Mt 7:21 ¶ "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,
29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

... or you could just go and get Saved!!!:):D

wolfsbane

Soul Winner said:

That does not sound like Paul thought he was actually saved either. That does not sound like Paul is lying on the beach glorying in his already saved state. He thanks and praises God always for opening the door whereby he might be saved, but even that great apostle of our LORD did not view himself as already saved. Thet text above proves that without question.

Salvation is past, present and future in its nature. We are being saved as God works in us to do His will; we will be saved finally when He comes for us - but it is also true that we were saved the moment we believed:
Romans 8:24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
_________________________________________________________________
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Soul Winner

wolfsbane wrote: »

Soul Winner said:

Salvation is past, present and future in its nature. We are being saved as God works in us to do His will; we will be saved finally when He comes for us - but it is also true that we were saved the moment we believed:
Romans 8:24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

I understand what you're saying and I agree the word translated salvation in the English is Sotera (σωτήριος) embodies saved-ness in the prefect sense. But while we are still tethered to our mortal bodies there is always the possibility that that old nature can over take us.

Paul describes this conflict in detail in Romans 7 where he states that there two forces in his members that are at war with each other. The old nature of sin and death and the new nature of life. He uses military language when describing this fight. He says that they are dug in like soldiers in trench warfare. It is a constant battle, the sinful nature is like gravity in its constancy. It must be displaced everyday. That's why we must keep the more powerful force of God's nature in us through acts of faith. This is what is saving us and is what will lead us to ultimate salvation when our garments of sinning flesh for which Christ died and paid the penalty for will ultimately be laid down freeing the new creature which has been built up since we first began to believe on Him.

But it is possible for the old nature to overtake us, especially when we drop our guard and lower the shield of faith. It is ever ready to bring us back into the bondage from which we were delivered. And is why Paul would say the following to the Galatians:

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." Galatians 6:1

Considering ourselves lest we also be tempted? Meaning that as long as it is even possible that we might be tempted away from the One who called us into His grace we must be always on guard against it. As believers we have a responsibly to make sure we put on the whole amour of God, above all the shield of faith.

"Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked." Ephesians 6:16

So even though I agree with your post we must also balance scripture with other scripture.

"But my righteous one will live by faith (Pistis). And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe (Pistis - same word translated faith above) and are saved. Hebrews 10:38-39

Pistis in the Greek, translated faith in the English is an action word. It is not just limited to simple belief, rather it is an action that is based on a belief. Which means it can be applied to normal everyday life. Like the way we get out of bed in the morning. We believe that gravity will keep our feet on the ground, but when we actually get out of the bed we simply assume that this fact is true and act on it, that is what faith is in concept, and it is that kind of action which God wants His people to exercise daily when He says something. A true believer sees a circumstance that defies God's Word of promise and acts on that Word of promise even though the promise is not yet materialized in reality. When it does then what was hoped for has become reality and is no longer hope. Our salvation is the same way. Our hope is in Him and we act accordingly every day until He comes.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him." Romans 6:3-9

I think we are all agreed that we must have faith in order to be saved, but where I think we differ is that you seem to believe that once you have believed then you don't need do anything else until He comes. That is true in the case of the law, we are not under that anymore, but we are to present ourselves to Him as living sacrifices which is our reasonable sacrifice Romans 12:1 and to fear lest a promise being left us in entering into His rest that we should come short of it Hebrews 4:1.

Soul Winner

Ooops double post...

gosplan

gosplan wrote: »

sorry, away for a few days. What else is pre-flood?

any answer to this? Very curious.

wolfsbane

Soul Winner said:

I think we are all agreed that we must have faith in order to be saved, but where I think we differ is that you seem to believe that once you have believed then you don't need do anything else until He comes.

Quite the reverse - we are called to holiness and service. The true believer will manifest those to some extent. Works always follow-on from true faith. Little or great, our service to Christ will exist.

Even the weakess brother/sister will manifest something of God's grace in their lives. And it is not their works that make them stand, it is God working in them:
Romans 14:3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

The true Christian has been saved, is being saved, and most certainly will be saved. Those who have deceived themselves into thinking they have trusted in Christ, but in their hearts they still love the world best, it is they who can fall and never rise again. Christ loses none of His sheep, no matter how weak or foolish they may be.
_________________________________________________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Soul Winner

wolfsbane wrote: »

Quite the reverse - we are called to holiness and service. The true believer will manifest those to some extent. Works always follow-on from true faith. Little or great, our service to Christ will exist.

Even the weakess brother/sister will manifest something of God's grace in their lives. And it is not their works that make them stand, it is God working in them:
Romans 14:3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

The true Christian has been saved, is being saved, and most certainly will be saved. Those who have deceived themselves into thinking they have trusted in Christ, but in their hearts they still love the world best, it is they who can fall and never rise again. Christ loses none of His sheep, no matter how weak or foolish they may be.

Like I said I agree with you but it is only true for the person who is connected to God by faith. Once you stop acting in faith then Christ no longer dwells in you. You can grieve the spirit.

Remember the parable of the sower? If you recall each of the four types of soil at first heard the Word and received it with joy and gladness but because of certain circumstances in their lives the Word either was snatched from their hearts by Satan or they just failed to keep the Word for whatever reason, but they did at one time receive it, which would mean that under your understanding of Christianity they could never be not saved after that, that Jesus will not loose these sheep. Well Jesus said that out of the four types of soil that only one type was able to bring forth good crop. Jesus also said that if you don't understand this parable then you cannot understand any parable. Do you understand this parable? This parable does not concern the world in general, it is specifically about those who have heard the Word and who have received it at some point, the world in general never hears the word and receives it so it can't be a parable about them, it is to the four types of believers, sheep.

"Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge. He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times." Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown." Mark 4:1-20

Plus Paul says that we must:

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" 2 Corinthians 13:5

Why do we have to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith if our salvation is a done deal? Without any further input of faith from us? God does not save faithless people not matter how much you once had faith in the past. You have to have it everyday, while it is called today. To be holy simply means to be given over to God. It has to do with commitment, it has nothing to do with performance to any standard. The word translated holy also translates to the word saint. And a saint is a committed one.

Do I think I'm a shining example of all this? Heck no, but like Paul I press toward the mark.

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

Like I said I agree with you but it is only true for the person who is connected to God by faith. Once you stop acting in faith then Christ no longer dwells in you. You can grieve the spirit.

Remember the parable of the sower? If you recall each of the four types of soil at first heard the Word and received it with joy and gladness but because of certain circumstances in their lives the Word either was snatched from their hearts by Satan or they just failed to keep the Word for whatever reason, but they did at one time receive it, which would mean that under your understanding of Christianity they could never be not saved after that, that Jesus will not loose these sheep. Well Jesus said that out of the four types of soil that only one type was able to bring forth good crop. Jesus also said that if you don't understand this parable then you cannot understand any parable. Do you understand this parable? This parable does not concern the world in general, it is specifically about those who have heard the Word and who have received it at some point, the world in general never hears the word and receives it so it can't be a parable about them, it is to the four types of believers, sheep.

"Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge. He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times." Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown." Mark 4:1-20

Plus Paul says that we must:

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" 2 Corinthians 13:5

Why do we have to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith if our salvation is a done deal? Without any further input of faith from us? God does not save faithless people not matter how much you once had faith in the past. You have to have it everyday, while it is called today. To be holy simply means to be given over to God. It has to do with commitment, it has nothing to do with performance to any standard. The word translated holy also translates to the word saint. And a saint is a committed one.

Do I think I'm a shining example of all this? Heck no, but like Paul I press toward the mark.

The Parable of the Sower concerns the promulgation of the Word of God ... and not Salvation.
It is quite possible for somebody, like the seed in the shallow soil, to hear and indeed proclaim the Word of God ... and not be Saved themselves. They may believe almost anything and still proclaim the Word of God, sometimes adding their own 'twist' to it.

God doesn't save anybody who doesn't believe on Jesus Christ.
... and it is therefore important to ask others ... who in turn, may also ask you, if you have believed on Jesus Christ -and are therefore Saved!!!

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

The Parable of the Sower concerns the promulgation of the Word of God ... and not Salvation.

Sorry you'll have to elaborate on that for me. A promulgation? Explain more please.

J C wrote: »

It is quite possible for somebody, like the seed in the shallow soil, to hear and indeed proclaim the Word of God ... and not be Saved themselves. They may believe almost anything and still proclaim the Word of God, sometimes adding their own 'twist' to it.

Jesus' explanation of the parable is pretty clear as it is.

J C wrote: »

God doesn't save anybody who doesn't believe on Jesus Christ.
... and it is therefore important to ask others ... who in turn, may also ask you, if you have believed on Jesus Christ -and are therefore Saved!!!

Hmmm??? Well Hebrews 11 makes it abundantly clear that there have been many who were saved by faith without any knowledge of Jesus Christ. How do you reconcile that?

Paul said to the Galatians:

"Received ye the spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2

"...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17

"Wihtout faith it is impossible to please god." Hebrews 11:6

Nobody can be saved without faith and we can't have faith in God without hearing the Word of God. God can save people who have never known about Jesus as long as they are trusting in His Word. But the basis by which God can save anybody is Christ. People don't need or want Jesus crammed down their throats, all that needs to be done is to preach the good news that His death has wrought. If they have a genuine thirst for that, then you will not be able to stop them responding to it in the right way. Just show forth God's faithfulness to His Word and teach the forgiveness of His cross and God and the hearer will work out the rest between themselves.

patrickk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK_zh-X21f0&feature=related

Soul Winner

patrickk wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK_zh-X21f0&feature=related

The one Jesus beheld falling from heaven was not Antichrist. It was Satan who also caused a third of heavens angels to fall with him. Antichrist is a human being who will become possessed by one of these fallen angels or (demons) named Abadon or Appolion currently bound in the Abyss to be released in the last days. From a careful reading of scripture (Daniel and Revelation) we can narrow down the geographic area where this human Antichrist will arise from. To save time let me just tell you that it will be in the area of the old Seleucid portion of Alexander the Great's kingdom, i.e. the area we know today as Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Southern Turkey. Keep a close eye on Syria.

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

Sorry you'll have to elaborate on that for me. A promulgation? Explain more please.



Jesus' explanation of the parable is pretty clear as it is.



Hmmm??? Well Hebrews 11 makes it abundantly clear that there have been many who were saved by faith without any knowledge of Jesus Christ. How do you reconcile that?

Paul said to the Galatians:

"Received ye the spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2

"...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17

"Wihtout faith it is impossible to please god." Hebrews 11:6

Nobody can be saved without faith and we can't have faith in God without hearing the Word of God. God can save people who have never known about Jesus as long as they are trusting in His Word. But the basis by which God can save anybody is Christ. People don't need or want Jesus crammed down their throats, all that needs to be done is to preach the good news that His death has wrought. If they have a genuine thirst for that, then you will not be able to stop them responding to it in the right way. Just show forth God's faithfulness to His Word and teach the forgiveness of His cross and God and the hearer will work out the rest between themselves.

... and what has any of this to do with the surety of Salvation for the Saved???
This is somewhat off topic ... and it is discussed in detail on this thread:-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055936056

J C

... for all of the budding evolutionists out there ... here is 10 Grand if you can prove that Evolution is science!!!!
http://www.josephmastropaolo.com/josephmastropaolo.html
... the prize has been on offer since 2007 ... and so far no takers!!!!:D:)

... they must have been too busy suing school boards throughout America to enforce the teaching of their dogma ... and only their dogma ... to children of all faiths ... and none!!!!

J C

Here is a small sign of progress within Sceince ... with an open-minded Scientist being appointed as Chief Scientist at the Israeli Ministry of Education ...
http://ncse.com/news/2010/02/update-from-israel-005342

... as usual, a chorus of whinging has ensued from the Evolutionists, as they claim that a belief in 'muck to man' evolution is a requirement to be considered a scientist ... and they want anybody who doesn't promise to support the nonesense that Pondkind evolved into Mankind to be sacked!!!

... Dr Avital is now supposed to be 'toeing the line' in his new job and has written a letter promising not to 'burst the evolutionists bubble' ... and to never ever question the load of baloney that Evolution truly is !!!!!
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/head-scientist-vows-to-toe-the-line-on-darwin-and-global-warming-1.264091

May Yahweh bless and protect Dr Gavriel Avital.:D

J C

Here is a list itemising the decline of liberal education in America as various bills aimed at supporting academic freedom are suppressed by the Evolutionists.
http://ncse.com/news/actionalerts

Here is what one bill would have done ... shock ... horror!!!:eek::eek:
"Kentucky's House Bill 397 would, if enacted, allow teachers to "use, as permitted by the local school board, other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner, including but not limited to the study of evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning."

I thought that understanding, analyzing, critiquing, and reviewing scientific theories in an objective manner is what a liberal scientific education is all about ...
... some of the Evolutionists seem to prefer legally enforced brainwashing and regurgitating evolutionist dogma that has neither logic or science on its side instead!!!!:eek::eek::(

... interestingly, I see that the Russians are starting to support freedom of thought ... just as some Americans seem to be hell bent on shutting it down!!!
http://ncse.com/news/2010/06/creationism-russia-005566
However, the following quote from the above article is particularly bizzarre:-
"The veteran dissident Lyudmila Alexeyeva, a recipient of the European Parliament's 2009 Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought for her work with the civil rights group Memorial, described Alfeyev's call for the teaching of "other theories" as "a dangerous idea," vowing, "we will do all we can to stop it."
... so here we have somebody who has received a prize for 'Freedom of Thought' ... who wants to do all she can to stop freedom of thought in relation to ideas with which she disagrees!!!!
... you just couldn't make this stuff up ... and if you did, nobody would believe you!!!!:eek::D

"Mississippi's House Bill 586, which if enacted would have required "scientifically sound arguments by protagonists and antagonists of the theory of evolution" to be presented in the state's schools, died in committee on February 2, 2010"
... this thread has proven that there are no scientifically sound arguments in favour of Evolution ... so I guess that some Evolutionists just use their brawn rather than their brains ... and simply have the bills suppressed!!

... but God always wins out ... and the majority of Americans (and the substantial minority of Russians) who are Creationists have the last laugh at their oppressors!!!:D

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

... and what has any of this to do with the surety of Salvation for the Saved???

There is only one type of person who has surety of salvation and that is the man or woman who IS (present tense) acting in faith on a promise of God right now. Not talking about it, or thinking about, or posting about it, but actively doing it right now, while it is called today. They are the only people who have God's spirit in them, nobody else has it, if you think you have and and are not acting in this way then you are deluding yourself, and that goes for me too. Just answer this question to yourself, how many of God's promises, that your life's circumstances defy, have you claimed in the last 24 hours? I would worry very much if you cannot say that you've claimed at least one. And if not in the last 24 hours then how about the last 7 days? Or the last month? If you cannot honestly answer that you have acted on a promise of God that fits a circumstance in your life that defies it then you have some serious problems. If you cannot see the importance of this then I worry for you and pray that God may open your eyes to its truth. Don't be one of those to whom Jesus will say: "Depart from me, I never knew you." There is going to be a lot of folks who are totally convinced that they are saved (for the wrong reasons) who will be told this very thing by Jesus. And unfortunately the people who need to see it the most in order to avoid such a pronouncement on them by our LORD are the ones who don't think they need to. But Lord Lord, didn't we say and do thus and son in your name? Unless He dwells in you by faith then you are none of His. And faith is acting on promises of God and hanging on until He either makes the promise reality down here, in which case you had better look for another promise that fits another circumstance that defies it, or you hang on until He takes you home to a place where there is no friction between thus saith the Word of the Lord and reality.

That's what it has to do with the surety of salvation for the saved. Scary stuff isn't it?

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

There is only one type of person who has surety of salvation and that is the man or woman who IS (present tense) acting in faith on a promise of God right now. Not talking about it, or thinking about, or posting about it, but actively doing it right now, while it is called today. They are the only people who have God's spirit in them, nobody else has it, if you think you have and and are not acting in this way then you are deluding yourself, and that goes for me too. Just answer this question to yourself, how many of God's promises, that your life's circumstances defy, have you claimed in the last 24 hours? I would worry very much if you cannot say that you've claimed at least one. And if not in the last 24 hours then how about the last 7 days? Or the last month? If you cannot honestly answer that you have acted on a promise of God that fits a circumstance in your life that defies it then you have some serious problems. If you cannot see the importance of this then I worry for you and pray that God may open your eyes to its truth. Don't be one of those to whom Jesus will say: "Depart from me, I never knew you." There is going to be a lot of folks who are totally convinced that they are saved (for the wrong reasons) who will be told this very thing by Jesus. And unfortunately the people who need to see it the most in order to avoid such a pronouncement on them by our LORD are the ones who don't think they need to. But Lord Lord, didn't we say and do thus and son in your name? Unless He dwells in you by faith then you are none of His. And faith is acting on promises of God and hanging on until He either makes the promise reality down here, in which case you had better look for another promise that fits another circumstance that defies it, or you hang on until He takes you home to a place where there is no friction between thus saith the Word of the Lord and reality.

That's what it has to do with the surety of salvation for the saved. Scary stuff isn't it?

I am a Saved sinner ... who has (and continues to) put my faith totally in Jesus Christ.

I am not in the least 'scared' ... I know that when I die I will meet Jesus Christ in His Father's House ... where there are many mansions!!!:)

... and like I have already said, this is off topic ... and it is all discussed in detail on this thread:-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055936056

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

I am a Saved sinner ... who has (and continues to) put my faith totally in Jesus Christ.

I am not in the least 'scared' ... I know that when I die I will meet Jesus Christ in His Father's House ... where there are many mansions!!!:)

... and like I have already said, this is off topic ... and it is all discussed in detail on this thread:-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055936056

Off topic? Its The Bible, Creationism and Prophecy thread, not the Creationism vrs Evolution thread only. Plus your link does not work anyway. And please do not read my posts as me judging you. It is not my place to do that. You're personal relationship with God is between you and Him. I just don't think there is enough fear in most Christians in order to keep them on their toes when it comes to salvation especially when they are in a state of dis-faith and just don't know it or want to know it. It is incumbent upon all Christians to exhort each other when we discern that kind of attitude amongst the brethren. Only you and God knows if that applies to you. I can tell you that it applies to me too often and I don't like it. I need God's grace more than most people and He knows it. I'm just grateful for the eyes that can see when I'm going off the track. I just get suspicious when some express nothing but complete and total certainty of their salvation when it is something that Paul says we are to work out with fear and trembling - literally phobias and traumas. Anyway we can leave it that if you want to.

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

Off topic? Its The Bible, Creationism and Prophecy thread, not the Creationism vrs Evolution thread only. Plus your link does not work anyway. And please do not read my posts as me judging you. It is not my place to do that. You're personal relationship with God is between you and Him. I just don't think there is enough fear in most Christians in order to keep them on their toes when it comes to salvation especially when they are in a state of dis-faith and just don't know it or want to know it. It is incumbent upon all Christians to exhort each other when we discern that kind of attitude amongst the brethren. Only you and God knows if that applies to you. I can tell you that it applies to me too often and I don't like it. I need God's grace more than most people and He knows it. I'm just grateful for the eyes that can see when I'm going off the track. I just get suspicious when some express nothing but complete and total certainty of their salvation when it is something that Paul says we are to work out with fear and trembling - literally phobias and traumas. Anyway we can leave it that if you want to.

... this is the Bible Creationism and Prophecy thread i.e. the Creationism and Prophecy aspects of the Bible are being discussed here!!!

... fear is the emotion most appropriate to the unSaved ... it is indeed a fearful thing (for the unsaved) to fall into the hands of the living God!!

... my primary emotions as a Saved person, are feelings of security and love for the God who has saved me.

Phobias and traumas are signs of possible demonic oppression ... and the link is now working.

gosplan

J C wrote: »

... so here we have somebody who has received a prize for 'Freedom of Thought' ... who wants to do all she can to stop freedom of thought in relation to ideas with which she disagrees!!!!

One is freedom to exercise your mind.

The other is freedom to believe what you want(which mostly likely won't involve exercising your mind)

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

... this is the Bible Creationism and Prophecy thread i.e. it is the Creationism and Prophecy aspects of the Bible that are being discussed here!!!

... fear is the emotion most appropriate to the unSaved ... security and a feeling of love from the God who has saved me are my primary emotions as a Saved person.

Phobias and traumas are signs of possible demonic oppression ... and the link is now working.

Phobias and Traumas are signs of demonic possession?

"The fear (Yirah) of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7

"Who among you fears (Yare) the LORD, and obeys the word of his servant?" Isaiah 50:10

Paul held the Philippian church up as the the model of how a church should be. His Epistle to them is widely regarded as his joy letter. With that in mind then they of all Churches at that time should have had no doubts about their salvation and yet read what Paul's says to them below:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear (Phobos) and trembling (Tromos)." Philippians 2:12

Jesus even tells us to fear Him who can destroy the body and soul.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear (Phobeo) him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

wolfsbane

Soul Winner said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Quite the reverse - we are called to holiness and service. The true believer will manifest those to some extent. Works always follow-on from true faith. Little or great, our service to Christ will exist.

Even the weakess brother/sister will manifest something of God's grace in their lives. And it is not their works that make them stand, it is God working in them:
Romans 14:3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

The true Christian has been saved, is being saved, and most certainly will be saved. Those who have deceived themselves into thinking they have trusted in Christ, but in their hearts they still love the world best, it is they who can fall and never rise again. Christ loses none of His sheep, no matter how weak or foolish they may be.
Like I said I agree with you but it is only true for the person who is connected to God by faith. Once you stop acting in faith then Christ no longer dwells in you. You can grieve the spirit.

It comes down to whether a Christian can lose his faith entirely or not. Sinning does not remove it. Doubt does not eradicate it. Little faith is a world away from no faith.

Remember the parable of the sower? If you recall each of the four types of soil at first heard the Word and received it with joy and gladness but because of certain circumstances in their lives the Word either was snatched from their hearts by Satan or they just failed to keep the Word for whatever reason, but they did at one time receive it, which would mean that under your understanding of Christianity they could never be not saved after that, that Jesus will not loose these sheep.

No, under my understanding they did not sincerely and wholeheartedly receive it. They received it conditionally - they were glad to hear and accept, so long as it didn't cost too much. That's not true repentance and faith. That's buying an insurance policy against hell that covers one's intention to sin. Satan is the underwriter for that, not God, so its worthless.

Well Jesus said that out of the four types of soil that only one type was able to bring forth good crop.

He did indeed. And what characterised that type? They had a noble and good heart for the word to enter and develop.
Luke 8:15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

In other words, God had given them a new heart, one that would gladly hear and obey. The new heart preceded their belief, and enabled it.

Jesus also said that if you don't understand this parable then you cannot understand any parable. Do you understand this parable? This parable does not concern the world in general, it is specifically about those who have heard the Word and who have received it at some point, the world in general never hears the word and receives it so it can't be a parable about them, it is to the four types of believers, sheep.

No, it is about another group, those who hear the Word. Some will truly repent and believe, most will not. BTW, one of the types never professed - those by the wayside, the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Plus Paul says that we must:

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" 2 Corinthians 13:5

Why do we have to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith if our salvation is a done deal?

Because we might be deceiving ourselves about having true faith in the first place - like the stony ground and thorny ground hearers. Paul is challenging them to make sure they were really saved in the first place. Careless, unholy lives are an indication of weak and wayward saints, in danger of chastisement - or worse, of unsaved sinners who have deceived themselves with a cheap profession.

Without any further input of faith from us? God does not save faithless people not matter how much you once had faith in the past. You have to have it everyday, while it is called today.

If you had true faith, you will not lose it.

To be holy simply means to be given over to God. It has to do with commitment, it has nothing to do with performance to any standard. The word translated holy also translates to the word saint. And a saint is a committed one.

Do I think I'm a shining example of all this? Heck no, but like Paul I press toward the mark.

Amen!
_________________________________________________________________
John 10: 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
... so here we have somebody who has received a prize for 'Freedom of Thought' ... who wants to do all she can to stop freedom of thought in relation to ideas with which she disagrees!!!!
... you just couldn't make this stuff up ... and if you did, nobody would believe you!!!!

gosplan
One is freedom to exercise your mind.

The other is freedom to believe what you want(which mostly likely won't involve exercising your mind)

... freedom is freedom ... everything else is fascism in one of its various manifestations!!!!:eek::)

Most of the true liberals that I have known have been Saved Christians ... most of the rest are pseudo-liberals ... who only really tolerate those who agree with them!!!!:D

wolfsbane

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hmmm??? Well Hebrews 11 makes it abundantly clear that there have been many who were saved by faith without any knowledge of Jesus Christ. How do you reconcile that?

Paul said to the Galatians:

"Received ye the spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2

"...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17

"Wihtout faith it is impossible to please god." Hebrews 11:6

Nobody can be saved without faith and we can't have faith in God without hearing the Word of God. God can save people who have never known about Jesus as long as they are trusting in His Word. But the basis by which God can save anybody is Christ. People don't need or want Jesus crammed down their throats, all that needs to be done is to preach the good news that His death has wrought. If they have a genuine thirst for that, then you will not be able to stop them responding to it in the right way. Just show forth God's faithfulness to His Word and teach the forgiveness of His cross and God and the hearer will work out the rest between themselves.

Many were saved without knowing the Christ would be called Jesus, but they knew of the Christ who would come to bring them salvation. Exactly what they knew we cannot be sure - but we can be sure they had sufficient knowledge of Him to be saved:
Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;

Luke 2:25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

John 1: 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5:38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

J C

Soul Winner wrote: »

Phobias and Traumas are signs of demonic possession?

"The fear (Yirah) of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7
Yes indeed fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge ... and it hopefully leads to Salvation and love of God!!!

"Who among you fears (Yare) the LORD, and obeys the word of his servant?" Isaiah 50:10
... again fear is appropriate to the unSaved and those under God's Law ... but love is the relevant emotion of the Saved under His Grace.


Paul held the Philippian church up as the the model of how a church should be. His Epistle to them is widely regarded as his joy letter. With that in mind then they of all Churches at that time should have had no doubts about their salvation and yet read what Paul's says to them below:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear (Phobos) and trembling (Tromos)." Philippians 2:12
... again advice to any unSaved members of the Church to be Saved through fear and trembling (if they haven't already been Saved through admonition)!!


Jesus even tells us to fear Him who can destroy the body and soul.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear (Phobeo) him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
... again this logically only applies to the unSaved ... as the Saved won't be consigned to Hell.

.

Soul Winner

wolfsbane wrote: »

It comes down to whether a Christian can lose his faith entirely or not. Sinning does not remove it. Doubt does not eradicate it. Little faith is a world away from no faith.

If we define faith as acting on the promises of God then we define loosing that faith as not acting on the promises of God. Its as simple as that. As soon as that happens we have lost faith and are therefore not in Christ and are therefore not His whether we sin whilst doing it or not. All we need to do is just keep that vital connection maintained daily. That is our battle. Too much of Christianity is taken up with fruit inspecting for Jesus and the eye is kept off what's more important to God - daily trusting in His promises.

wolfsbane wrote: »

No, under my understanding they did not sincerely and wholeheartedly receive it. They received it conditionally - they were glad to hear and accept, so long as it didn't cost too much. That's not true repentance and faith. That's buying an insurance policy against hell that covers one's intention to sin. Satan is the underwriter for that, not God, so its worthless.

You've made quite a lot of assumptions there Wolf. The Word plainly states that they did receive it and some with joy and gladness but other factors crowded in to choke the Word, factors that were outside of their control. You're assumption that they had intentions to sin is very judgmental and ill founded if you ask me. Unless that is made crystal clear in the parable I would give making such judgments a very wide berth. Anyway you are entitled to interpret the parable whatever way you like I suppose.

wolfsbane wrote: »

He did indeed. And what characterised that type? They had a noble and good heart for the word to enter and develop.
Luke 8:15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

The key words in this verse are keep it. Suggesting that it is possible to let it go. That they don't let it go is what keeps them connected to the source of salvation. It is that keeping of the Word (or promise of God) that makes their salvation sure. But it has to be actually practiced everyday, it is not a once off event in the life of the believer, that's all I'm trying to point out.

wolfsbane wrote: »

In other words, God had given them a new heart, one that would gladly hear and obey. The new heart preceded their belief, and enabled it.

No, it is about another group, those who hear the Word. Some will truly repent and believe, most will not. BTW, one of the types never professed - those by the wayside, the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Hearing and obeying are one and the same thing. Let me show you:

The word translated obedience in the New Testament is Hupakoé and the word translated hearing is Akoé. Hupakoé literal means to go towards the voice of the sayer.

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2

They received the spirit by the hearing of faith, nothing else.

Even in the Old Testament the word translate obedience is Shama which also means to hear. So obeying is the same as hearing and in the parable of the sower each type of soil heard (obeyed) the Word, what differentiates the various types of soil is what caused them to stop hearing the Word, e.g. Satan, Life's worries and so forth. They failed to keep hold of the Word no matter what. It wasn't because they had intentions of sinning and weren't true receivers of the Word in the first place as you suggest, that just shows a lack of understanding of this parable on your part IMO, which means that there must be a lack of understanding for all parables. One of us is not understanding this parable and I don't think its me.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Because we might be deceiving ourselves about having true faith in the first place - like the stony ground and thorny ground hearers. Paul is challenging them to make sure they were really saved in the first place. Careless, unholy lives are an indication of weak and wayward saints, in danger of chastisement - or worse, of unsaved sinners who have deceived themselves with a cheap profession.

There is no such animal as an unholy saint, that is a contradiction in terms because the same Greek word translates both saint and holy which is Hagios. Its like calling someone a married bachelor. It (Hagios) has to do with commitment, a giving of oneself over totally to the use of the deity and it can be applied to any religion. Being a saint is not living a perfect existence, it is simply being committed to God and being faithful to that commitment.

wolfsbane wrote: »

If you had true faith, you will not lose it.

If that is the case then why does Paul exhort the Phillipians to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? Surely they had true faith? If what you say is true then why is Paul telling them to deal with their salvation in this way? Where the Philipians somehow inferior in faith quality than the other chruches? I don't think they were. Paul actually points ot them as shining examples of what a Church should be like. He says so to the Corinthians.

"And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God's will. So we urged Titus, since he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us—see that you also excel in this grace of giving." 2 Corinthians 8:1-7

Paul held them up as pretty high cotton. I would even venture to say that their faith was true, wouldn't you? If that's the case then according to you they would never loose it. But if that's the case then why does Paul still exhort them to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? It just doesn't make sense if what you say about true faith is correct.

Genuine faith is genuine faith no matter who has it. They key is keeping it until the end. We all have to do this until we make it over there. Having the faith of Elijah all your life and then losing it at the last hurdle is not going to do anything for you. But even if you have little faith and keep even that little faith right up to the end you will make it in.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Pisteuó); to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith (Pistis): as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

gosplan

J C wrote: »

... freedom is freedom ... everything else is fascism in one of its various manifestations!!!!:eek::)

Yes, freedom of belief is vital. One should be perfectly welcome to believe in God, Adam and Eve, the flat earth, the flood, and that we should be wary of Syria as it's likely the antichrist will appear there(not you ... I know) ... but the point is that this should not be taught in schools.

J C wrote: »

Most of the true liberals that I have known have been Saved Christians ... most of the rest are pseudo-liberals ... who only really tolerate those who agree with them!!!!:D

Heresay. You are a single person which is no good for a sample proportion.