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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)
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monosharp, this is a ridiculous argument. PDN has experience of the underground church in China, and has seen it first hand. You claim that the Chinese legalise a form of Christianity that is agreeable to them. Correct.
I never for a second suggested he didn't experience it first hand.What China does not do is allow for full freedom of religion, and for people to subscribe to their own beliefs in whatever way they wish.
Absolutely and I don't agree with them and I think it should be changed.
But my point is that PDN is trying to make a religious issue out of a political one, he purposely concentrates on only that aspect and he also exaggerates it.
Yes Christians in China are been oppressed. But equally Yes, Christians in China are not been oppressed.
China oppress some religious people who act against the law, a law which is there for political reasons, not religious. A law which applies to all religions, not just Christian denominations.
Of course it's a despicable thing that Christians are been oppressed in China, but it's not because of their religion, it's because they are going against the system. They might as well get a 'Free Tibet' tattoo on their forehead and run around Beijing, they'd get the same treatment.
I'm annoyed by PDN's comments because;
A) He dismisses and insults the state sanctioned churches of which many of the members are friends of mine. I don't know what denomination you are jakkass but do you really think it's appropriate to insult these people's churches simply because you don't agree with the governments monitoring ?
He purposely tries to get across the image that these people are been oppressed for religious reasons, for their belief in God, for their belief in Jesus Christ. That's utter nonsense, they are been oppressed because they are members of an organisation which has not registered itself to the government. There are millions of Christians in China who are members of the state sanctioned churches, do they not have a belief in God or Jesus Christ ?
C) I'll get banned if I say it.Do you think that freedom of assembly is a right that all people should have or not? If you do, then China is in gross violation of this principle.
Oh absolutely. I'm a very strong admirer of George Orwell actually and I despise anything which brings us closer to a 1984 style government.
But this is a political issue, not a religious one. These aren't Christians been fed to the lions for their beliefs.The way we have it currently in most Western countries is that people can set up churches freely irrespective of what creed they happen to join to, they can meet together freely, they can discuss their beliefs freely and worship freely.
Yes. But China isn't a Western country.
Jakkass forgive me but I am not arguing on behalf of the Chinese government, I agree that people should be allowed to set up churches or whatever else they want to irrespective of belief and meet freely.It's kind of like saying that if you study philosophy in China, they will only let you study Epicurus. If you study Anixamander, or Plato you will be put in jail. Absolutely ridiculous. Freedom of thought and expression is key! If you like philosophy, you can go and study Epicurus with the rest of those philosophy folk. Don't try to study anyone else!
Well I'm in agreement mostly but it's not exactly the same thing now is it ? They haven't banned the bible for example. But anyways I do agree.
But presently the Chinese government require such organisations to register with them. This is a political issue and needs political change. China is slowly becoming more liberal. Every year we see changes, we see progress. A few years ago it was impossible to be openly homosexual in China. Members of the Communist Party are technically required to be atheist but many of them are openly religious nowadays.0 -
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Absolutely and I don't agree with them and I think it should be changed.
That's really all that needs to be said in a legal context.But my point is that PDN is trying to make a religious issue out of a political one, he purposely concentrates on only that aspect and he also exaggerates it.
As I see it PDN hasn't exaggerated anything. Christians who do not belong to the State approved church are abused, beaten, raped, and in some cases killed from what I have heard of it.Yes Christians in China are been oppressed. But equally Yes, Christians in China are not been oppressed.
As far as I know, the majority of Christians in China are being oppressed.China oppress some religious people who act against the law, a law which is there for political reasons, not religious. A law which applies to all religions, not just Christian denominations.
Agreed. It's still horrific. It needs to be said that a majority of Christians have been treated in this way. This is on the Christianity forum, and as such Christianity will be discussed. I oppose such treatment of all faiths.Of course it's a despicable thing that Christians are been oppressed in China, but it's not because of their religion, it's because they are going against the system. They might as well get a 'Free Tibet' tattoo on their forehead and run around Beijing, they'd get the same treatment.
It's because of their religion. Precisely because their religious conscience forces them to go against the system. Don't be so disingenuous.A) He dismisses and insults the state sanctioned churches of which many of the members are friends of mine. I don't know what denomination you are jakkass but do you really think it's appropriate to insult these people's churches simply because you don't agree with the governments monitoring ?
Personally PDN can say what he wishes about them. I'm fairly sure he knows more about it than I do. I replied to you because I felt your claim that PDN was overplaying persecution was clearly wrong. He purposely tries to get across the image that these people are been oppressed for religious reasons, for their belief in God, for their belief in Jesus Christ. That's utter nonsense, they are been oppressed because they are members of an organisation which has not registered itself to the government. There are millions of Christians in China who are members of the state sanctioned churches, do they not have a belief in God or Jesus Christ ?
And they are. Their faith of largely Evangelical character which convicts them to set up their own churches causes them to be persecuted.Oh absolutely. I'm a very strong admirer of George Orwell actually and I despise anything which brings us closer to a 1984 style government.
But this is a political issue, not a religious one. These aren't Christians been fed to the lions for their beliefs.
It's both. Christians are being killed, raped, tortured in jails in China for their conviction. I find it wholly unreasonable but not unsurprising to be honest with you that you are doing this.Yes. But China isn't a Western country.
This doesn't justify their treatment of Christians.Jakkass forgive me but I am not arguing on behalf of the Chinese government, I agree that people should be allowed to set up churches or whatever else they want to irrespective of belief and meet freely.
You're downplaying the treatment that these people receive.Well I'm in agreement mostly but it's not exactly the same thing now is it ? They haven't banned the bible for example. But anyways I do agree.
I remember PDN saying that they do restrict Biblical study before. I'll like to ask him the opportunity to discuss this in more detail when he can.0 -
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You said my statement was troubling, I explained it.
But I didn't ask for an explanation
Care to elaborate what's troubling about it ?
For exactly the same reason why any discussion you have on Christianity turns out to be troubling - your hated is palpable and you present a confused message of tolerance for religious all practice and attack.0 -
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A majority of Christians are deemed to be acting against the law in China.
Again, maybe they are a majority. Would it make it better if they were a minority ?A large amount of Christians who have been arrested in China have been subjected to such horrific conditions.
Yes indeed. Those that have been arrested.
Perhaps you don't know or you just don't want to say it but the government largely leaves these churches alone and has largely left them alone since the early 1990's. The government, in effect, largely ignores them.It's very similar to the Romans actually. I'm fairly sure that they deemed Christians being detrimental to their control in the region telling people to believe in Jesus first and foremost above the Emperor or human authorities.
Actually your right it probably was similar in that respect.The point is that this is horrific, and your downplaying of this is fairly appalling. From what I see PDN is being fair in his assessment, you are twisting the truth for your own purposes.
How am I downplaying it ? I have never said anything except how horrific it is and it should be changed. If you mean my corrections against evangelist propaganda then damn right I am downplaying it because its utter nonsense.
The underground churches in china are not been hunted down like Jews in Nazi Germany like evangelism puts across, the underground churches are mostly left alone and ignored. The authorities simply don't care, don't see them as a threat.The current system is fundamentally unjust. Your apologetics for the Chinese government are really astounding at this point.
Of course it's completely unjust, I never said otherwise. And I am not apologising for the Chinese, I am simply pointing out that the situation is been greatly exaggerated by evangelist propaganda.It's specific to say that a majority of Chinese Christians are subject to persecution? Not at all. A majority of Christians who do not wish to follow a church with state-interference are subject to persecution on a regular basis.
Thats not true. Nowadays they are largely tolerated/ignored by the authorities. As I've already said, the major incidents of persecution come about not as anything to do with religious practice but as part of other activities which the authorities see may lead to civil unrest.Why should that be a problem?
To the Chinese government ? It's not, they largely ignore them nowadays. The Chinese authorities are worried about civil unrest caused by religious groups, look at Falon Gong for example. They are also afraid of foreign influences on the Chinese people because of these religions especially Catholicism by the Pope in Rome.
The simple fact of the matter is that since the early 90's the government has been progressively tolerant to christian underground churches.
Of course I agree that they shouldn't be against the law at all and any persecution is wrong, but my problem is with the exaggerated propaganda of evangelism.0 -
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1869, cutting edge biology eh ?
Was that all you found questionable about my post? Cool
Anyway it was Wicknight who brought up applying Darwinian principles not me. Huxley's statement reveals just how far Darwinian principles can go. Oh its come on a bit since then for sure but still not enough to be applied to chemical self assemblage into information storage, coding, decoding, transporting, replicating, executing etc etc...0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »Was that all you found questionable about my post? Cool
T'was 2am and I was tired.Anyway it was Wicknight who brought up applying Darwinian principles not me. Huxley's statement reveals just how far Darwinian principles can go.
It does ? Even though it was made nearly 150 years ago ? You really want to say that ?Oh its come on a bit since then for sure but still not enough to be applied to chemical self assemblage into information storage, coding, decoding, transporting, replicating, executing etc etc...
So this is fake yes ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment0 -
Again, maybe they are a majority. Would it make it better if they were a minority ?
It's just to counteract your downplaying of the numbers.Yes indeed. Those that have been arrested.
Indeed, and people continue to be.Perhaps you don't know or you just don't want to say it but the government largely leaves these churches alone and has largely left them alone since the early 1990's. The government, in effect, largely ignores them.
If that were true, how come Christians are still being arrested on a regular basis according to all reliable sources.
How come a mere Google search can tell you of arrests in China based on Christianity well within the last decade, never mind the 1990's.
By the by, how come PDN was denied a visa to China if the Chinese government just ignore them, or "don't care"?How am I downplaying it ? I have never said anything except how horrific it is and it should be changed. If you mean my corrections against evangelist propaganda then damn right I am downplaying it because its utter nonsense.
Doubting the numbers, doubting all news reports concerning arrests in the last 10 years, doubting PDN's eye testimony having been in the underground churches. There's no propaganda here. It's just you downplaying the facts.The underground churches in china are not been hunted down like Jews in Nazi Germany like evangelism puts across, the underground churches are mostly left alone and ignored. The authorities simply don't care, don't see them as a threat.
They are arrested on a regular basis even from a news point of view. Even then if we are to consider the arrests that don't feature on the news I should probably suspect that it is much higher than reported.Of course it's completely unjust, I never said otherwise. And I am not apologising for the Chinese, I am simply pointing out that the situation is been greatly exaggerated by evangelist propaganda.
Except, that it isn't. You're downplaying severe human rights abuses.Thats not true. Nowadays they are largely tolerated/ignored by the authorities. As I've already said, the major incidents of persecution come about not as anything to do with religious practice but as part of other activities which the authorities see may lead to civil unrest.
Keep saying these sorts of things, but the evidence indicates otherwise. Unless you can provide evidence of things being otherwise, that is. They are still persecuted because they are Christians. By the by what "other activities" are you speaking of?To the Chinese government ? It's not, they largely ignore them nowadays. The Chinese authorities are worried about civil unrest caused by religious groups, look at Falon Gong for example. They are also afraid of foreign influences on the Chinese people because of these religions especially Catholicism by the Pope in Rome.
Again you're simply not going to be believed if the evidence goes against your current position.The simple fact of the matter is that since the early 90's the government has been progressively tolerant to christian underground churches.
I've already dealt with this above.Of course I agree that they shouldn't be against the law at all and any persecution is wrong, but my problem is with the exaggerated propaganda of evangelism.
There isn't any exaggerated propaganda. Your downplaying of the reality is appalling.0 -
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Soulwinner, my previous post to you answered all the objections you have.To rule out abiogenesis, you must first
A) Know what natural chance event must be considered. Calculate the probability of that event occuring by chance.
IDers will happily calculate the probability of complex sequences occuring by chance, but they have never established that these complex sequences could not have evolved from simpler, less complex sequences. Indeed, much of abiogenesis is the application of Darwinism to molecular structures. So until IDers have A sorted, they're not really saying anything productive.
If there is abiogenesis (a replicator emerging by chance) and Darwinism, there is complexity emerging naturally from simple chemistry.
So feel free to reference Meyer's book in telling us what the simplest replicator is, and hence, what the smallest chance event that needs to occur is.0 -
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This discussion has been closed.
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