Iran, Israel and the Worlds Response.

mike65

So then Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has turned out to be exactly what many feared - an antisemtic terrorist funding nut-job.

While addressing a conference with the breezy title "The World without Zionism" he said

There is no doubt that the new wave in Palestine will soon wipe off this disgraceful blot from the face of the Islamic world... As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

And

"Anybody who recognises Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury. Anybody who recognizes the Zionist regime is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world,"

Now you could be a generous fool and say he was playing to the home crowd
but its clear enough that the Clerics have got want they wanted, both the President and the parliament in thier pocket.

Iran gots the money and its got the ambition, will it get the chance?

Mike.

whiskeyman

Can't believe no one commented thus far.
Not since WW2 has a country leader made such a statement.
Scary stuff!

hojozesc

I have a dream:)

Captain Trips

mike65 wrote:

So then Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has turned out to be exactly what many feared - an antisemtic terrorist funding nut-job.

Antisemitic? He has said nothing against Jordanians. The Israeli's do not have exclusive rights to the Semite phrase. He is anti Israel and anti Zionist. This has zero to do with being anti Jewish or anti Semite.

For reference, I point you to Jews against Zionism http://www.nkusa.org/ (NETUREI KARTA) who also call for the abolition of ISrael. Yes, a JEWISH organisation opposes ISRAEL and ZIONISM.. If you had a deeper understanding of international politics, and I don't claim to be an oracle of knowledge, but clearly Iran's leader said nothing anti Jewish or anti Semite - he said what Orthodox Jews are also campaigning for.

Terrorist Funding? Where's your evidence - or is it simply enough to suppose things like this? He called for Israel's destruction so obviously he funds terrorists. Which terrorists are these? The IRA? ETA? The Michigan Militia? Chechen rebels in Moscow? Or does he - OMG - fund all] the terrorists.

That sort of incitement to hatred is a crime, you know.

Nut-job? So just resort to slagging him off? You are also a nut job. It's fun, isn't it. ANd solves nothing.



To reiterate - to be against Zionism and against Israel is neither anti Jewish nor anti Semite. Judaism against Zionism: http://www.nkusa.org.

Capt'n Midnight

If the west stopped buying Iranian oil then they wouldn't have money to spend on stuff like that. Golden rule and all that.

Mike - do you have a link to that because it sounds like he was quoting an iman rather than his own words.

The Brits invaded during WWII to keep hold of the oil
The US overthrew a this guy in the 50's
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Mohammed_Mossadegh "named as Time Magazine's 1951 Man of the Year."
Had they not done so then Iran maybe could have been as secular as Iraq or Turkey and without a grudge against the west.

fly_agaric

whiskeyman wrote:

Can't believe no one commented thus far.
Not since WW2 has a country leader made such a statement.
Scary stuff!

When they get their nukes the south of Europe will be in range. Wonderful.

whiskeyman wrote:

If the west stopped buying Iranian oil then they wouldn't have money to spend on stuff like that. Golden rule and all that.

No, not anymore. Not buying it would probably hurt Europe more than Iran. China would just buy it instead anyway. The Iranians have been under US sanctions for years anyway, and if the EU brought in sanctions too, the Chinese and Russians will be only too glad to sell them whatever they want. There is absolutely nothing the "West" can do about Iran so their president can rattle his sabre as much as he likes.

netwhizkid

Israel has invaded and stolen other countries land and too and will probably be nuked in some future war. America is receding as the world power, China will be the dominant force in another few years anyway, Without the USA, Israel would be nothing, I can see the Arabs blowing them out of it to get easy accsess to the med to export their oil in a future of $200 a barrel petroleum. Israel are the whole cause of Islamic extremism anyways. If they were gone we would probably have less to fear, however we'd miss their advanced hi tech computer parts and telecoms products. Will dubya invade iran to save the Israeli Jews is the question though, he has the troops next door and well he will be remembered as the worst president ever so why not go out with a bang in tehran!

bonkey

whiskeyman wrote:

Not since WW2 has a country leader made such a statement.

I'm pretty sure Arrafat made comments to the same tune, as well as several others in the earlier days of Israel's existence.

Having said that...

I'm undecided as to the extent that this is a testing of the waters. Its almost certainly a mix of :

a) Iran is seeing how far it can push things,
b) Iran is trying to get the established powers to "force" it to stop dealing with the likes of the IAEA by inciting them to issue sanctions against it.
c) Other brinksmanship I haven't fully thought through yet.

One of the most unlikely scenarios in my mind is that this is some mindless religiously-or-racially-inspired incitement to incite naked aggression.

jc

what bonkey said plus possibly wanting the "west" to do it's worst thereby enhancing a nice little anti west hatrid in the new more liberal Iran.

BBC's newsnight the other night had a special report from there and its a country gone very liberal and western in nature.
Something the likes of which this crackpot president would like to clamp down on.

bus77

Isnt zionism a general buzz word in that part of the world for captilism and western domination .ect
Personally I see it a differ'nt version of the stuff that was coming out of the US and others regarding the spread of communism.

It's when the people feel the leadership are toothless and/or impotent in the face of invisible monsters that you get the real cloak and dagger stuff.

So in that light I see it as being quite healthy to ''shake the fist'' so to speak.

Somebody has to do it.

fly_agaric

bonkey wrote:

I'm pretty sure Arrafat made comments to the same tune, as well as several others in the earlier days of Israel's existence.

I wonder if Arafat ever said anything as strong as that out in the open after he became leader of the PA though?

mike65

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Mike - do you have a link to that because it sounds like he was quoting an iman rather than his own words.

You are rightish, the words were actually by Ayatollah Khomeini. my bad editing.

Captian Trips the terrorists I had in mind are Hizballah/Hezbollah, Al-Jihad, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Mahdi Army (who are sometimes busy in Basra area).

Mike.

RagShagBill

Israel are the whole cause of Islamic extremism anyways.

Israel being there, are Israeli human rights abuses? There is a difference, a very important difference. However, either way, your statement is false. Israel may be what radical Muslims claim to be the claim of their extremism, but in reality, ithey are driven by a desire to restore the caliphate of the 6th and 7th centuries, in which Sharia law expanded across North Africa and into Spain. Make no qualms about it, radical Muslims are as - and probably more - imperialistic than the United States and Israel. So, that is actually the root source of extremism, that's its ideological basis.

However, with this for an ideology, it would never be likely that the extremist thinkers could get people to join up to their little mission. Instead, they blame Israel and America for anything that is bad in their lives. In doing so, an enemy of the people is created. To fight against such a tyrannical enemy must be honourable. Not only honourable though. Extremists teach people from an early age that to fight - more specifically, to sacrifice themselves - in the name of Jihad will allow them to ascend to heaven, to be greeted by X number of heavenly virgins.

To deny that Israeli Human Rights abuses have anything to do with Islamic extremism would be naive because - whether directly or indirectly - they simply do. But to think that they - or even Israel itself - is the "whole cause" of extremism is equally naive.

Sponge Bob

RagShagBill wrote:

Israel being there, are Israeli human rights abuses? There is a difference, a very important difference. However, either way, your statement is false. Israel may be what radical Muslims claim to be the claim of their extremism, but in reality, ithey are driven by a desire to restore the caliphate of the 6th and 7th centuries, in which Sharia law expanded across North Africa and into Spain. Make no qualms about it, radical Muslims are as - and probably more - imperialistic than the United States and Israel. So, that is actually the root source of extremism, that's its ideological basis.

Ahhhh Go On, Iran is Shia, the Caliphate was Sunni !

However, with this for an ideology, it would never be likely that the extremist thinkers could get people to join up to their little mission. Instead, they blame Israel and America for anything that is bad in their lives.

Some of them people are quite right too . Most are not of course.

Extremists teach people from an early age that to fight - more specifically, to sacrifice themselves - in the name of Jihad will allow them to ascend to heaven, to be greeted by X number of heavenly virgins.

This line of extremist thought is of recent vintage....perhaps no earlier than 1980 and may be seen as a failure of politics in Islamic states. The only Islamic states with which the US (and Israel) have good relations since 1980 , continously, are dictatorships like Egypt or Turkey (until recently) or Saudi . Into that void stepped the suicide extremists ....initially Shia not Sunni IIRC .

To deny that Israeli Human Rights abuses have anything to do with Islamic extremism would be naive because - whether directly or indirectly - they simply do. But to think that they - or even Israel itself - is the "whole cause" of extremism is equally naive.

Twaddle , Sabra and Chatila death camps were extreme and predated suicide bombing cults .

The University of Jihad was a concentration camp called Khiam run by Israel in the 1980s and 1990s in occupied south Lebanon.

THAT was where the initially Shia suicide bombing ideologies went pan Islamic .

RagShagBill

Ahhhh Go On, Iran is Shia, the Caliphate was Sunni !

I know it's a thread about Iran and whatnot, but not once did I mention Iran. I'm merely refuting the claim made that: "Israel is the whole cause of Islamic extremism." Which, I think you'll acknowledge, is far too naive and over simplified to be true. Maybe you won't though.

TomF

netwhizkid wrote:

America is receding as the world power, China will be the dominant force in another few years anyway...

This may be true, and certainly tends to focus the mind wonderfully. I wonder what will the world be like with America tending to its own garden exclusively, maybe becoming a larger Switzerland, and letting China and India work-out international policy for the rest of us? I really don't see the EU being very influential, with its population taking the dive, and its economic influence waning.

unkel

bonkey wrote:

a) Iran is seeing how far it can push things

It's playing a dangerous game. Iraq was at least several years away from being able to produce nuclear weapons back in '81 when Israel bombed it's reactor

Nuttzz

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1200672,00.html

My words are the exact words of the Iranian People

I couldn't see the US/UK directly attacking Iran. If the US struck at the Iranian nuclear plants what are the chances of the Iranians rolling over the border into Iraq?

What power does the president have as opposed to the Ayatollah? I thought the Ayatollah was the top dog there?

bus77

unkel wrote:

It's playing a dangerous game. Iraq was at least several years away from being able to produce nuclear weapons back in '81 when Israel bombed it's reactor

Israel recently requested membership of the UN's security council, so hopfully that will serve to prevent strikes like that. God help us if it dos'nt.

bonkey

unkel wrote:

It's playing a dangerous game. Iraq was at least several years away from being able to produce nuclear weapons back in '81 when Israel bombed it's reactor

So, 24 years ago, Iran was several years from having a bomb.

Is "several" larger or smaller in value than 24?

jc

mike65

Nuttzz wrote:

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1200672,00.html

What power does the president have as opposed to the Ayatollah? I thought the Ayatollah was the top dog there?

The Supreme Leader of Iran and his inner circle of 12 are the ones with the real power. The President is a bit of a figurehead he can't declare war or appoint/dismiss judges etc.

Mike.

bonkey

bus77 wrote:

Israel recently requested membership of the UN's security council, so hopfully that will serve to prevent strikes like that.

Yeah, cause no members of the UN Security council get involved in pre-emptive / preventative attacks of any kind

unkel

bonkey wrote:

So, 24 years ago, Iran was several years from having a bomb.

That was Iraq, not Iran

bonkey wrote:

Is "several" larger or smaller in value than 24?

Interesting point. I suppose it is the potential perception of Israel that they are about to be attacked by a nuclear weapon from a country that openly states it should be wiped off the map. How long away Iran actually is from having nuclear weapons isn't relevant

I don't doubt for a moment that Israel would strike again

AARRRGH

"Wiped off the map" could mean removed from the map in a "Israel should not really exist" kind of way.

I doesn't necessarily mean lets nuke them. I don't think he would be dumb enough to say something like that.

RagShagBill

I doesn't necessarily mean lets nuke them. I don't think he would be dumb enough to say something like that.

Quite true. It's extremely likely that the comments didn't mean anything, that it was blind rhetoric being used, as someone else said, to see how much he could get away with. That does not excuse the comments though, they still need to be taken very seriously.

I'd keep an eye on these Persian blogs, all of which provide articluate coverage of Iranian goings-on.

http://secularcaniranik.blogs.com/scaniranic/
http://hoder.com/weblog/
http://www.iraniantruth.com/

Plankmonkey

God forbide anybody say anything bad about the Israelis, poor buggers sure look at what happened to them in the Holocaust for gods sake. Israel needs to be put in its place imo. Call me anti-sematic or whatever you like but I'm not. Just because I don't like Israel and their policies and the way they are allowed to do whatever they like just because the holocaust happened does not make me anti-sematic. They came over from Europe and literally took over Palestine and oblitered a nation because God told them they could in the bible. It makes me sick to see what they get away with and although the Iranian president could have been more tactful I can see his point. Israel needs to be taken down a notch or 2.

RagShagBill

Just because I don't like Israel and their policies and the way they are allowed to do whatever they like just because the holocaust happened does not make me anti-sematic.

I think you'll find that Israel is not allowed to do "whatever it likes". The UN consistently call it on its human rights abuses, its new wall and whatever other actions the UN finds inhumane. The fact that nothing gets done about it isn't because Israel has some sort of immunity against repurcussions, but that the UN is a weak, impotent and inefficient institution. Also, I think you'll find that a few Hamas suicide bombers claim to bomb Israel because of its actions. Surely that's not doing whatever it likes. Again though, I concede it does get away with a lot of abuses, but this is down to the impotence of the UN, not international immunity.

As far as the Holocaust is concerned - they may have won their right to a state because of the Holocaust, but to claim that they have international immunity because of it is invalid. If this so-thought immunity exists - which I don't entirely believe does - it is because the soi-disant opposing side does to Israel - suicide bombings, etc - are such an unfair, inhumane tactic, that it's hard for many in the international community to see any other way for Israel to protect itself.

oblitered a nation

In 1948, no Palestinian state was invaded or destroyed to make way for the establishment of Israel. From biblical times, when this territory was the state of the Jews, to its occupation by the British army at the end of World War I, Palestine had never existed as a distinct political entity but was rather part of one empire after another, from the Romans, to the Arabs, to the Ottomans.

Israel needs to be put in its place imo

Where, might I ask, do you suggest they are to be put?

unkel

RagShagBill wrote:

In 1948, no Palestinian state was invaded or destroyed to make way for the establishment of Israel

Indeed. In fact the UN approved a plan to create two sovereign states: Palestine and Israel. Straight after the approval, Palestine was invaded by Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese and Iraqi troops and the Israelis started defending themselves

Sponge Bob

RagShagBill wrote:

From biblical times, when this territory was the state of the Jews, to its occupation by the British army at the end of World War I, Palestine had never existed as a distinct political entity but was rather part of one empire after another, from the Romans, to the Arabs, to the Ottomans.
?

FFS , there were virtually no jews in Palestine between about 500AD and 1920AD , the owners were Palestinian! The jews had pissed off and left the place.

RagShagBill

The presence of the Jews has nothing to do with what I was saying. I was stating that from the time of the Jews all the way up to British occupation, there was no Palestinian state. Thus, debunking PlankMonkey's claim that the Jews obilterated a nation.

Sponge Bob

There was palestinian property ownership of palestinian property until the pogroms against them in 1948 . Those pogroms were conducted by the tooth fairy according to some interesting fox news reports

and there were no suicide bombers ANYWHERE before Israel invaded Lebanon in 1979/1980