ADSL is not 'THAT' expensive!

tHE vAGGABOND

I have been wondering about some of the bl33ting that goes on in here, and doing sums for a few days..

I am right beside an exchange that is good to go, and if I moved back home, I’m good there too. So I’m getting ADSL. As I’m sure we all are/would like to.

I use the net a lot, sometimes playing games (CS, Diablo 2 etc), sometimes just sitting about on IRC/chat programs with mates from US. Same as most people.

That makes me a heavy user (altho not insane), and I bet you I still would be well below a 3 gig cap 9 months of 10. That said, thanks to the fantastic work of this group that 'cap' will prolly get raised anyway.

I have ISDN at the moment. My monthly phone bill is somewhere between £200 and £500 (last bill was £1250 BTW). Now take 20% of that off, due to one house mate ringing his bird in Newry and the other making the odd call to Netherlands, for work. Lets take an average of between £150/250.

Rental is just under £60 per month. ISDN TA from Eircom is £100,
I got my TA for free off a mate in the UK, but if you go into a shop they will sell you one for anything up to £400/500 quid. Installation is £100.

COST for ADSL..
Connection fee - £100, £78 per month
ADSL USB Modem - £115
*or*
ADSL Ethernet Modem - £158
(I gotta go with Ethernet there, just cos USB ISDN modems suck, and I bet any money you can get cheaper ones. ALA eircom trying to sell ppl £300 ISDN modems a while ago, when ASUS ISDN TA's are £40!)

So the connection fee is kinda the same for ISDN and ADSL, monthly rental is MAX 40% more (for a *huge* speed increase) and the modem cost is the same. And you dont have call charges with ADSL.

Therefore ADSL is **far** cheaper than ISDN for someone who uses the net.

ando

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
That said, thanks to the fantastic work of this group that 'cap' will prolly get raised anyway.

Is that a strong rumour/fact or just your taughts ? Just wondering, hoping your right

SkepticOne

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
I got my TA for free off a mate in the UK, but if you go into a shop they will sell you one for anything up to £400/500 quid. Installation is £100.

Only llamas pay £400/500 for an ISDN TA.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND

Connection fee - £100, £78 per month

Wrong.

Pimp Ninja

yeah vAGGABOND you have got a good point there. It is a resonable price for the speed increase, assuming that they (Eircom) are going to increase the cap.

Any since your definately going onto it, any chance of passing that ISDN Adapter this way???

tHE vAGGABOND

Only llamas pay £400/500 for an ISDN TA

I think you will find most people who are not l33t hax0rs fit into that bracket

Is that a strong rumour/fact or just your taughts

my thoughts, and something I am hearing more and more, and theres no smoke without fire is there!

NeilF

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
Therefore ADSL is **far** cheaper than ISDN for someone who uses the net.

It may be but it is still too expensive.

If Eircom bothered to introduce unmetered dialup for ISDN you could reduce you current bill to £30 or so and not have to spend £300 getting ADSL installed.

Current ISDN pricing and the proposed ADSL pricing are both daft, only one is dafter than the other.

p

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
Therefore ADSL is **far** cheaper than ISDN for someone who uses the net.

I think this is the key line here.

ISDN isn't cheap either.

If ADSL is to be a success it needs to be cheaper to appeal to more casual users who want the speed.

80 quid p/m is huge for the kinda service it is.

This what you pay on normal phone rental or cable tv or satellite per month. Now I know they are different services but the pricing should be in the same kind of league as them as that's what people expect.

- Kevin

SkepticOne

Originally posted by p
80 quid p/m is huge for the kinda service it is.
- Kevin

It is not £80 per month.

tHE vAGGABOND

If Eircom bothered to introduce unmetered dialup for ISDN

Several companies tried to do this in the UK, and pretty much all of them did not last a single year!

Companies like Red Hot Ant - and even some of BT's earlier products failed on the unmetered side of things.

Things are ven less attractive over here, as in the UK the ISP gets a percentage of every call, so if I was to dial up IOL at 5p per minute (or whatever) the ISP gets 1p of that. Even with that, things failed over there. Even with 56 million odd people. In the US most local calls are free, totally free, here they are expensive - and that wont change!

its a sad fact folks, we dont have enough people to make some of these funky things worth companies while giving them to us.

R. Daneel Olivaw

If you are happy to have £200/month phone bills, that's fine. The rest of the free world seems to believe that a broadband connection should cost around £40/month with no cap....

....well done. You are Eircom's ideal customer. You have become used to paying £1500 a year+ for an internet connection that people in the US and EU can get for around £200 a year.

The pricing makes sense in Eircom's mind:
£14.25/month PSTN
£35/month ISDN
£93/month ADSL

Given the increasing speeds, I'm sure they think it's okay pricing. You obviously missed somewhere along the line (like the past 3 years) that ADSL was meant to intruduce hi-speed national broadband nationally. Or do you somehow manage to close your eyes to the other countries around you that have that?

Eircom have delayed so long, people *expect* high bills. Snap out of it. You really think they are being honest in charging the equivalent of a new PC every year is OK?

tHE vAGGABOND

we dont have a choice right now..

Esat and NTL and humming and hawing about this and that...

Expensive broadband is far better than no broadband

as soon as its released, then that will bring others into the market, and it will lower the price..

Supply and Demand

SkepticOne

When they published their price of £93.55 per month, I knew there would be some for whom this seemed like good value. In certain circumstances it can work out cheaper than heavy use of ISDN, particularly daytime use. If that is the case, then you may have no choice but to switch to ADSL.

What I can't understand is people being happy with the situation of paying a multiple of what would be paid in other countries simply because one company has an almost total monopoly on local loop access, a monopoly which was protected by law until recently.

Ireland allowed competition very late compared to a lot of European countries. Now we are in a global downturn and it looks like Ireland will suffer because of this. I am not happy that one company can take advantage of this and actually charge more and possibly damage the economy further because of this.

Now some may argue that this situation will not change so why not just get used to the situation. I would have to ask those people what they are doing on a forum about getting decent Internet access into Ireland.

Boston

Were are you getting your 40% for connection fee,

Isdn is £13 (are will be) extra on top of line rental making it about 50 every to months

ADSL is £70 (could be abite more) extra on top of line rental so thats about 165 which is more then 3 time the connection fee of isdn.

Also note, the only reason that the cap was raised from 1 gig to 3 gig is because (and i worked this out somewere) its approx £36 to download a gig on isdn of peak as discount rates. were adsl is £26, so untill you reach a certain point(i think about 3.5gigs) isdn is cheaper to download.
This is the only reason the cap was upped from 1gig - 3 gig and some people here seem to think it was down to public opinion

Hecate

its a sad fact folks, we dont have enough people to make some of these funky things worth companies while giving them to us.

Norway has about the same population as ourselves; broadband access is cheap and plentiful over there.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
Were are you getting your 40% for connection fee,
ADSL is £70 (could be abite more) extra on top of line rental so thats about 165 which is more then 3 time the connection fee of isdn.

ADSL is £93.55 on top of line rental.

That is for the cheapest option. If you want the equivalent what is available in other countries you will have to pay a lot more.

tHE vAGGABOND

but we dont live in other countries..

we dont have the luxury of a choice of several ISP's, or a network that was unbundled and opened to competition 10 years ago

again, there is nothing we can do now, except complain (in whatever form that takes)

if eircom launch it, and its popular, other will come into the market, and the price will fall. Just like processors or graphics cards. When they get launched they are reaaally expensive, and they fall in price quite quickly

same will happen here, as I said before its all about supply and demand

SkepticOne

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
but we dont live in other countries..

we dont have the luxury of a choice of several ISP's, or a network that was unbundled and opened to competition 10 years ago
again, there is nothing we can do now, except complain (in whatever form that takes)

Or campaign against it.

if eircom launch it, and its popular, other will come into the market, and the price will fall. Just like processors or graphics cards. When they get launched they are reaaally expensive, and they fall in price quite quickly

Only a tiny number of people will take up the offer at these prices.

same will happen here, as I said before its all about supply and demand

But Eircom control supply. By issuing a high wholesale price, they can force the retail price of competitors ADSL above what normal people would be prepared to pay thus driving competition out of the market.

tHE vAGGABOND

I think the take up will be more than a tiny number. I know loads of people here in work and at home who are mad to get it.

For working IT type ppl the cost is not *that* mental, and working IT type ppl will want broadband. If people are going to use the net for a small business say ADSL will be yer only man, miles better than a nasty (and faaaaaaaaaaaaar more expensive) 64k leased line

Eircom know that, hence their 'nasty' position.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
Eircom know that, hence their 'nasty' position.

'nuff said

Scruff

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND

if eircom launch it, and its popular, other will come into the market, and the price will fall. Just like processors or graphics cards. When they get launched they are reaaally expensive, and they fall in price quite quickly

same will happen here, as I said before its all about supply and demand

you're not comparing like with like here, one's a service and the other two are commodities.
yeah, ok if a number of people are selling the same type of graphics cards the will go down a small bit due to competition but the main reason they go down is they become dated and yesterdays technology with time.

if this is the case why is 56K modem access still so expensive because its been around for years?

And ADSL isnt exactly a new technology, its only new here. but if it were eircon trying to sell you, say, a Geforce3 for £900 would you not complain and buy it off them or would u bugger off and buy it for 2-3 tomes less from someone else if you could?
You are really only going to buy it from eircon if you have no other option and need it.

The problem is the wholesale price is too expensive here and is prohibiting compeditors from entering the market, so no competition, no reduction in price. u have to buy it off eircon if u want it

And it won't be popular because the masses cant afford to pay £25 bi monthly for phone line + call charges + £99/month ADSL rental (+ 2.6p/mb over cap).

i think u are just trying to convince yourself you're not being ripped off so you'll feel better about paying over huge sums of cash. And the fact that eircon were screwed with ISDN too.

imo.

<edited for one or two spellind mistakes :rolleyes: >

tHE vAGGABOND

i think u are just trying to convince yourself

nope - god gifted us all with free will

IKiigan

Hmmm Vag I gotta say that I disagree with all of what you say.

The basic ISDN / Hi-speed service from Eircom costs approx. 35 pounds per month. That price is about 15 pounds more than a standard analog line, and it get's you 2 x 64 channels (and thus two phone numbers). The installation is about 95 quid, and an ISDN TA for your PC is rarely more than 80 or 90 pounds. You don't need to be a "l33t hax0r" to know a good deal from a bad deal. It's all fairly cheap - the expensive bit is the call charges.

On the other hand, i-Stream solo has a monthly costs of approx 120 (100 service cost plus 20 for line rental). The initial outlay on hardware is approximately twice the price of an ISDN TA. The relatively low cap means that heavy users (those who have prohibitively expensive ISDN phone bills prompting them to upgrade to i-Stream) really aren't getting their money's worth.
Plus i-Stream comes with a 12 month contract, not to mention all sorts of other little gripes like the costs when you go over your cap. Eircom reserve the right, during your 12 month contract period, to move you to a "more suitable" i-Stream service offering, should they so wish. Etc etc

Bottom line - i-Stream is very VERY expensive. It is significantly more expensive than other countries' broadband services. Worse than that - the wholesale prices are very expensive also - discouraging competition. Sure, there might be one or two very heavy net users who save a few pounds using i-Stream in preference to ISDN - heavy net users, but most ordinary people won't. And of course it is fine that ISDN is cheaper than ADSL (remember, ISDN is 25 year old technology) but overall. most people in Ireland would find i-Stream to be prohibitively expensive.

Now we move onto your answer to that teaser: "Expensive broadband is better than no broadband" - well I beg to differ. The attitude that Irish internet users are so desperate for bandwidth that we will take any old sh*te, at any price whatsoever, is plainly ridiculous. I say, boycott i-Stream, say to Eircom "Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want the product at the price you are offering. Go back to the drawing board and come back with something better." Eircom have invested enough capital in the I-Stream service, they won't be withdrawing it any time soon. They want it to be profitable, they want to sell YOU the service. If you don't buy the service, they'll have to rethink things.

Maybe there are some people who will pay ANY amount for broadband. What's that phrase about a fool and his money? Anyway those are the people that allowed Eircom to continue charging extortionist installation and rental fees for PSTN and ISDN services over the years, expensive interconnect charges, unfeasibly expensive local-loop access etc etc.

Rather than get all excited and wet my pants over the impending launch of i-Stream, I'd rather see the service delayed, or withdrawn. I'd like to see the ODTR impose a strict pricing model on the wholesale costs of ADSL in Ireland. I'd like to see Eircom be successful (seriously) in offering a good service, with less restrictions for a price that is fair for the Irish consumer. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see those things happening soon, but one can hope.

Cheers

Ian

SkepticOne

I'm sorry for contributing to this topic. It is more or less a duplicate of the one Money Questions, also started by tHE vAGGABOND.

Straker

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I'm sorry for contributing to this topic. It is more or less a duplicate of the one Money Questions, also started by tHE vAGGABOND.

Totally agreed with SkepticOne.
Enjoy using ADSL tHE vAGGABOND.

nasty_crash

why if it is not that expensive are Eircom being chased by a regulator committee who want Eircom to reduce their prices???

I read an acticle yesterday saying that the profit that they would make is very big!! and that the regulators would allow them to charge that much!!

So its looking good for us now! Eircom have two choices:
1. Reduce prices!

2. Pull out of ADSL at the risk of loosing a lot of money, as ppl will change the IP if they can get a faster connection!



______________________________________
Make it so No. 2

tHE vAGGABOND

agreed number 3

this has ended up as a handbag fight

end of thread

Boston

SkepticOne are you sure of that price, because eircoms site had £70 something, the thing was they made no mention of vat, so some people think that price may or may not include vat,

If thats were your getting the £90+ figure, could you please explain how you came to that conclusion, and how it was confirmed

Ps vAGGABOND you have been brainwashed into thinking were allways going to get shafted so why not except it, well the line is drawn here, this far and no more

infomat

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
I use the net a lot, sometimes playing games (CS, Diablo 2 etc), sometimes just sitting about on IRC/chat programs with mates from US. Same as most people.

That makes me a heavy user (altho not insane), and I bet you I still would be well below a 3 gig cap 9 months of 10. That said, thanks to the fantastic work of this group that 'cap' will prolly get raised anyway.

I have ISDN at the moment. My monthly phone bill is somewhere between £200 and £500 (last bill was £1250 BTW). Now take 20% of that off, due to one house mate ringing his bird in Newry and the other making the odd call to Netherlands, for work. Lets take an average of between £150/250.

Rental is just under £60 per month. ISDN TA from Eircom is £100,
I got my TA for free off a mate in the UK, but if you go into a shop they will sell you one for anything up to £400/500 quid. Installation is £100.

COST for ADSL..
Connection fee - £100, £78 per month
ADSL USB Modem - £115
*or*
ADSL Ethernet Modem - £158
(I gotta go with Ethernet there, just cos USB ISDN modems suck, and I bet any money you can get cheaper ones. ALA eircom trying to sell ppl £300 ISDN modems a while ago, when ASUS ISDN TA's are £40!)

So the connection fee is kinda the same for ISDN and ADSL, monthly rental is MAX 40% more (for a *huge* speed increase) and the modem cost is the same. And you dont have call charges with ADSL.

Therefore ADSL is **far** cheaper than ISDN for someone who uses the net.

Assuming that you have ISDN basic service then your rental is no where near £60 per month.

You forgot to add 20% VAT to your prices.
You forgot to mention that you still have to pay line rental as well as the monthly ADSL charge.
You forgot to mention that you still must pay for voice calls
If you go with Eircom's lower priced packages you must pay for the supplied modem (you have no option).
If you wish to gain any real advantage from the speed gain you certainly will exceed the 3GB limit by a large factor.
If you want to supply your own equipment you have to subscribe to the ISTREAM ENHANCED service which costs about £212 per month (this is not capped and you can get a static IP) and this is certainly less expensive that what you are currently spending.

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
Companies like Red Hot Ant - and even some of BT's earlier products failed on the unmetered side of things.

There are lots of unmetered ISPs in the UK which provide unmetered ISDN services as well. Quotes such as "Our internet package allows you to surf the internet 24-7 free of charge for a set monthly fee of just £10.00 per month for either 56k modem or 64k iSDN" are a reality in the UK. A quick review of http://www.ispreview.co.uk/ reveals many providers. WonkyPig is one such provider: http://www.wonkypig.com/.

TwoShedsJackson

Is the enhanced one the only one that isn't capped? At 212 they can forget it, 80 quid cheaper and I would go for it. (when compared to current phone bills).

3gb would last me about two nights if I was on an unmetered service.