Church and state

luckat

Has the time come to definitively separate church and state?

Should we have a referendum to change the Constitution to take out the special position of the Catholic Church?

Zebra3

Eh, wasn't that done years ago?

luckat

luckat wrote:

Should we have a referendum to change the Constitution to take out the special position of the Catholic Church?

Think they did it about 32 years ago...

mike65

One entirely symbolic matter was dealt with, the practical stuff has hardly been addressed at all - schools, healthcare etc.

Mike.

bonkey

luckat wrote:

Has the time come to definitively separate church and state?

How does one definitively do this?

Should we have a referendum to change the Constitution to take out the special position of the Catholic Church?

As has been pointed out, this has been done.

It hasn't resulted in the definitive seperation of church and state.

So, if you're asking whether or not its time to do something else...have you any suggestion as to what that something would be?

jc

Nuttzz

bonkey wrote:

How does one definitively do this?

A Henry VIII type landgrab, take all the churches, schools & property off them and feck them out of the country

mmmmm........

mike65

This subject is on the election landscape in France for 2007 - with the likely centreist candidate Nicolas Sarkozy suggesting the strict laws of seperation should be relaxed.

Whats most depressing about this subject is that its not remotely on the radar here, if you put it to the political class they'd run a kilometre. Even those who might make a noise on the left know they'd never make it part of any potential coalition government agreement. Lots of grief - no reward.

Mike.

luckat

If the politicians run a mile from something it's because they feel there isn't popular support for it. Is there?

bonkey

luckat wrote:

If the politicians run a mile from something it's because they feel there isn't popular support for it.

I woudl ahve said that politicians will generally oppose things which will result in a net vote-loss. Its not a question of how popular things are. Its a question of weighing up how many voters will you alienate, and how many you will gain by taking this stance.

Many religiously-inclined people would possibly be inclined to oppose a measure which will remove the religion they all grew up with from schools etc. I would guess it is an issue significant enough that many would vote against a party solely based on their stance on this issue.

I cannot see a comparable body of people switching their vote to some party for taking this stance. How many FF critics, for example, would throw all their scorn of the party out the window and vote FF just because FF promised a more definitive church/state split.


jc

lazydaisy

Apparantly it hasn't been done constitutionally. It was supposed to be part of the Good Friday agreement.

sceptre

lazydaisy wrote:

Apparantly it hasn't been done constitutionally.

What, removing the "special position" of the church? Referendum in 1972 says it has. It was constitutionally put there in the first place so the only way of removing it was constitutionally.

It was supposed to be part of the Good Friday agreement.

That deals with issues in what de facto is part of another country. Debates aside, the GFA doesn't change anything to do with religion in the 26 counties and wasn't intended to.

catholicireland

Has the time come to definitively separate church and state?

Should we have a referendum to change the Constitution to take out the special position of the Catholic Church?

No it isnt time. I think the ties should be made stronger if anything. We are a catholic country and our goverment should reflect this.

A Henry VIII type landgrab, take all the churches, schools & property off them and feck them out of the country

mmmmm........

Quite a racist thing to say there. Something like the Nazis said about the jews.

Zombrex

catholicireland wrote:

No it isnt time. I think the ties should be made stronger if anything. We are a catholic country and our goverment should reflect this.

You are kinda missing the point :rolleyes:

Our "country" shouldn't be any religion since religion is a personal choice. Or put it another way if the majority of people in Ireland were muslim should our government change into an islamic law style government?



The special position of the church was removed from the constitution but that is a mile away from a proper seperation from church and state like you have in places like the US.

I for one would welcome a US style seperation, but realistically it isn't going to happen here anytime soon as the health and education systems would fall into complete melt down if tomorrow the government said they would not fund any school or hospital with religious teachings

catholicireland

You are kinda missing the point

No I am not. Your the one missing the point:rolleyes:

Our "country" shouldn't be any religion since religion is a personal choice. Or put it another way if the majority of people in Ireland were muslim should our government change into an islamic law style government?

Well isnt everything a personal choice these days?
I dont know, can we talk about reality, not about what if's?
The Irish goverment and the Catholic Church needs to work together more then they are at present. People who are not Catholic dont have to be offended, they can do their own thing. That is what makes this counrty great - minorities are actually listened to!

Zombrex

catholicireland wrote:

The Irish goverment and the Catholic Church needs to work together more then they are at present. People who are not Catholic dont have to be offended, they can do their own thing. That is what makes this counrty great - minorities are actually listened to!

They can "do their own thing" with no support from the their government ..

ArthurDent

catholicireland wrote:

Well isnt everything a personal choice these days?
I dont know, can we talk about reality, not about what if's?
The Irish goverment and the Catholic Church needs to work together more then they are at present. People who are not Catholic dont have to be offended, they can do their own thing. That is what makes this counrty great - minorities are actually listened to!

Do you live in the same coutry as I do?
You say: people who are not Catholic dont have to be offended, they can do their own thing - how can they if 98% of primary schools and the majority of secondary schools are denominational? If all, but one, of the public hospitals and the majority of private hospitals have a Catholic ethos.Please explain how this enables non-catholics to "do their own thing?"

And as for Irish Govt and Catholic church working together more - you cannot be serious.:eek:

sceptre

catholicireland wrote:

Quite a racist thing to say there. Something like the Nazis said about the jews.

Stop blibbering. No-one could interpret it as in any way racist. You might think it's unfair, unacceptable or even an apalling vista or something but it isn't racist in any universe that I can think of.

DublinWriter

catholicireland wrote:

No it isnt time. I think the ties should be made stronger if anything. We are a catholic country and our goverment should reflect this.

By doing what exactly? Getting the Guards and Army to march people to mass of a Saturday night? Oh, please.

It was the closeness of church and state that let to the disgraceful blocking of Noel Brown's 'Mother and Child' scheme. Is that the era you want to go back to?

We're only hanging on to the barest threads of Catholicism because of the pervasive presence of the church in the primary and secondary levels of education.

80% of all primary schools are Catholic Church run schools. Therefore the pressure will always be there when little Timmy turns 7 and sees all his mates parents are booking bouncy castles for First Holy Communion days.

The pressure will still be there when he's 12 and can go on a great big revenue-collecting day out on his Confirmation Day.

The Jesuits weren't wrong when they said "Give me the boy and I'll give you the man". Look at the bunch of materialist pigs we've all become. And how many times is the plate passed round at mass these days?

The catholic church hasn't just abused kids sexually, you know.

The government should get Henry VIII (i.e. medieval) on the church's control of so-called state schools.

It's a sad incitement of us that after the revelations of Ferns et al we still continue to let them educate our children.

catholicireland

catholicireland wrote:

Quite a racist thing to say there. Something like the Nazis said about the jews.

Godwin's law invoked. You lose catholic ireland

catholicireland wrote:

Well isnt everything a personal choice these days?
I dont know, can we talk about reality, not about what if's?
The Irish goverment and the Catholic Church needs to work together more then they are at present. People who are not Catholic dont have to be offended, they can do their own thing. That is what makes this counrty great - minorities are actually listened to!

If the catholic church wants to get closer to government, it should set up a political party, on a mandate of imposing catholic values on everyone else. If the people want the catholic church the to have a greater say in how the country is run, let the people decide that. What it shouldn't do is try and short circuit the democratic process that currently exists in "(nominally) catholic" Ireland.

esperanza

With regard to Irish schools, I can't see a full separation between church and state bringing about any positive changes. Currently all religions are respected in Catholic schools, be they Jewish, Muslim or Protestant. I think this is much better than trying to bring about a system, as such in france, banning the wearing of certain religious symbols, which in my opinion only increases tension.
But then again, in most Irish schools we have school uniforms...

esperanza

DublinWriter wrote:

The government should get Henry VIII (i.e. medieval) on the church's control of so-called state schools.

It's a sad incitement of us that after the revelations of Ferns et al we still continue to let them educate our children.

Well said!!!;)

Zombrex

esperanza wrote:

Currently all religions are respected in Catholic schools, be they Jewish, Muslim or Protestant.

That may be true, but you are still sending your chlid to a school run by a different religion. I am sure a lot of Catholics would have strong objections if they had to send their child to a Muslim school, not matter how respectful they were

catholicireland

Godwin's law invoked. You lose catholic ireland

dont be so childish. this is not a game.

Do you live in the same coutry as I do?
You say: people who are not Catholic dont have to be offended, they can do their own thing - how can they if 98% of primary schools and the majority of secondary schools are denominational? If all, but one, of the public hospitals and the majority of private hospitals have a Catholic ethos.Please explain how this enables non-catholics to "do their own thing?"

i dont see the problem you have? if you want to have abortions and all that carry on then move to somewhere like the UK where they allow all, and legal murder is allowed. That is what you want?

Foreigners who are living here and non catholics need to respect this counrty, and stop always crying for a change. If you want your own counrtys values and culture then move back to your own country...

sceptre

catholicireland wrote:

i dont see the problem you have? if you want to have abortions and all that carry on then move to somewhere like the UK where they allow all, and legal murder is allowed. That is what you want?

'Cos that's what'll 'appen? Listen to me very carefully because I'm going to mostly use short words. This forum is not a fun room for you to toss your own off-topic hyperbolic crap into threads that aren't talking about the off-topic stuff that you're putting in there. No-one's going to discuss abortion in this particular thread or nazis or racism because they're just things that you're putting in because you can't argue your point without it. Or so it seems. Do it again and you won't be posting here again. I will not act as your babysitter as it's not worth the money (zero) I get from doing it. No-one else will either. Do not make me address any of your posts in my moderator form again at any point in the future because the decision will be quick and not in your favour. You may address any points raised without exaggerating or driving the thread off-topic. You may not address any points raised if you insist on exaggerating or driving the thread off-topic. You may not object to any of this in any forum other than the Help Desk, which is currently not operating, the Feedback forum as a current substitute for the help desk or by sending me a PM. Pick one.

Oh, for the record (not that I should have to), I'm not slapping you for your ethos or any belief you may have apart from the belief that you may deliberately attempt to quickly throw topics off-kilter with unadulterated rubbish. Drop that belief and we can all be a happy family.

Hydroquinone

catholicireland wrote:

Foreigners who are living here and non catholics need to respect this counrty, and stop always crying for a change. If you want your own counrtys values and culture then move back to your own country...

Eh? So if you were born here and happen not to be a Catholic you should move back to your own country? What country would that be, if you were born here?
What sort of nonsense is that?
There is such a thing as an Irish person who is a Protestant or a Jew or a Muslim or an agnostic or an atheist you know.
What country is it you think they should move to?

And you're a fine one to say that " if foreigners don't like it they should go back to their own country" seeing as you were the one complaining about racism earlier in this thread.

cal29

catholicireland wrote:

dont be so childish. this is not a game.



i dont see the problem you have? if you want to have abortions and all that carry on then move to somewhere like the UK where they allow all, and legal murder is allowed. That is what you want?

Foreigners who are living here and non catholics need to respect this counrty, and stop always crying for a change. If you want your own counrtys values and culture then move back to your own country...

Perhaps you need to respect this country and its people Catholic and non Catholic this is a democracy and the people will decide on the laws in this country not your church or anybody elses
The essence of democracy is that people can try and change things that they see as wrong if enough people agree with them they change if they dont they stay the way they are but they can continue to seek change thats democracy.