Irish Muslims integration into the Irish society

Suff

Do you know any Muslim personally? in either work, college or maybe one of your neighbors?

Any thoughts on what Irish Muslims should do to establish a healthy integration into the Irish society?

marco murphy

Non irish muslims , in my opinion and from what i have met, are extremely mannerly and lovely people

Qadri

And what about Irish Muslims ?

I have a couple of students. They are real Irish and they are new Muslims. And they are also very good.

HelterSkelter

Qadri wrote:

And what about Irish Muslims ?

I have a couple of students. They are real Irish and they are new Muslims. And they are also very good.

Are they Irish people who converted to Islam?

Suff

HelterSkelter wrote:

Are they Irish people who converted to Islam?

I am sure there are! I know 3 people and I know there are more Irish women who convert then men!!

HelterSkelter

I am interested in the Irish people who convert. What were their reasons for converting? How did they become interested in Islam? What were the reactions of their family, friends, work colleagues, etc?

Suff

To really answer this we need an Irish convert to join here
so if any of you knows one ask them if they like to join us here.

Qadri

Yes they are Irish . I will ask them to join the forum. Alternatively you can search the internet and will find many websites with experiences of Western converts to Islam.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

I am sure there are! I know 3 people and I know there are more Irish women who convert then men!!

Are these converts women who marry Muslim men? I seem to remember that while a Muslim man may marry a non Muslim(with certain conditions), a Muslim woman can't marry a non Muslim under any circumstance. That might explain the difference in number of converts(from the marriage point of view anyhoo).

ferdi

one of my best mates is an irish muslim. that fact that he is muslim dosnt really come into it.

Suff

ferdi wrote:

one of my best mates is an irish muslim. that fact that he is muslim dosnt really come into it.

Ask him to join here so we can plage him with Questions

ferdi

he is a member of boards but i doubt he wants to pontificate online

Wibbs

A non pontificating member of boards? A likely story.:)

Hobbes

Suff wrote:

Do you know any Muslim personally? in either work, college or maybe one of your neighbors?

Any thoughts on what Irish Muslims should do to establish a healthy integration into the Irish society?

Prehaps you can expand on exactly what it is you mean? I know quite a few muslims inside and outside of work. Apart from them having to pray at certain times and they don't drink they are no different then anyone else I have met. There are decent people and there are assholes and there are total loons, pretty much the same as everyone else.

You may as well ask how Kerry people can establish a healty integration with Dublin people.

wes

This is a good question. I was born here, but my parents are Muslim so was raised one. I have to say I have not encountered many Irish converts, besides one lad and that was a brief conversation.

I would have to wonder about people's reaction, I don't have to much of a problem as most people aren't surprised that I am not a Christian on account of my ethnicity.

I suppose as said earlier the only way we are gonna find out if such a person posts here. Still no harm in wondering out loud.

marco murphy

Qadri wrote:

And what about Irish Muslims ?

I have a couple of students. They are real Irish and they are new Muslims. And they are also very good.

I know few converts, infact... only one, so i cant judge.

Suff

Hobbes wrote:

Prehaps you can expand on exactly what it is you mean? I know quite a few muslims inside and outside of work. Apart from them having to pray at certain times and they don't drink they are no different then anyone else I have met. There are decent people and there are assholes and there are total loons, pretty much the same as everyone else.

You may as well ask how Kerry people can establish a healty integration with Dublin people.

I think that Muslims in Ireland are not integrated into the society. they are relectant to, this need to be addressed.
they don't interact with the Irish as much as they should, IMO!

hairyheretic

Suff wrote:

I think that Muslims in Ireland are not integrated into the society. they are relectant to, this need to be addressed.

Why do you believe that this is?

At the risk of somewhat derailing this thread (mods please feel free to split this to a new topic if applicable) the news reports of the recent rioting in Paris has indicated that muslim youths are the ones doing this, and that the lack of integration into French society may be at least a contributory fact.

Do you believe that muslims are reluctant to integrate with (Western?) societies, or the countries that they move to? Even first generations seem to identify with their parents religion / culture moreso than the ones of where they have lived.

wes

I reckon I am pretty integrated here. Maybe I am the exception rather than the rule. Friends of mine would identify me as Irish (which is how I identify myself). Muslims can integrate here easily enough, or maybe again thats just me.

Suff

I don't know why they don't integrate.

I have been living in Dublin now for the past 10 years.
I really think of myself as a half Irish half Syrian. I have integrated completely into the irish society [well cos there are hardly any Syrians in Ireland ]
Work is always great fun, meeting new people [try to convert them no really.]
I used to go out with them into pubs (Me no drink) and enjoy it until 11 pm when the silly talk starts that's when I leave.
I do go for dinner parties, weddings and even funreals and I am very involved with my area's activities if it's either social or political.
but the Muslims I know hardly do any of this at all! they just go to their college/work and that's it nothing outside this.

Maybe they are afraid of losing some of their culture?

OfflerCrocGod

hairyheretic wrote:

At the risk of somewhat derailing this thread (mods please feel free to split this to a new topic if applicable) the news reports of the recent rioting in Paris has indicated that muslim youths are the ones doing this, and that the lack of integration into French society may be at least a contributory fact.

Not totally true - the riots in France are more to do with the fact that they are being discriminated againts for their skin colour more then for their religion. If you have the wrong name or skin colour you can find it a lot harder to get a job in France and the religion is not the problem factor; it's simply that these 1st and 2nd generation immigrants are not seen as French by the "old" French. This leads to them being segregated to crappy suburbs like Clichy-sous-Bois with poor infrastructure and job prospects. These young people who should see their identity as French are instead denied this feeling of belonging so instead turn to the only other community they have and that is Islam. The French are paying for their decades of racism, I hope they pay good and hard so that they never make the same mistake: "Liberte, Equalite, Fraternite" is for all French people and NOT just white French

hairyheretic wrote:

Do you believe that muslims are reluctant to integrate with (Western?) societies, or the countries that they move to? Even first generations seem to identify with their parents religion / culture moreso than the ones of where they have lived.

It really depends on the society they move to; if the society supports multi-culturism and seperate schooling based on faith or racial background then it makes it hard to intergrate. That's the reason I'm againts Christian, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim etc schools the sole purpose of those schools is to seperate; they reinforce divisions. We need a more US style school system where state and school are seperate and there is no religion in the school. Once we have that the younger generations will naturally integrate and leave behind the mores and bigotry of their parents.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

[try to convert them no really.]

Ah here, watch it you....:D

I used to go out with them into pubs (Me no drink) and enjoy it until 11 pm when the silly talk starts that's when I leave.

Sadly, even if you drink that can be the case too.:D

Maybe they are afraid of losing some of their culture?

Maybe, but I do think OfflerCrocGod's last paragraph in his last post sums it up quite well. So long as there is seperation(espcially of children) this will continue to be a problem.

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

Ah here, watch it you....:D

Jokie joke

Wibbs wrote:

So long as there is seperation(espcially of children) this will continue to be a problem.

I agree 100%.......what can be done?

Hobbes

Suff wrote:

I think that Muslims in Ireland are not integrated into the society. they are relectant to, this need to be addressed.
they don't interact with the Irish as much as they should, IMO!

And your basis for this information is? What exactly?

How do you know if the person is muslim or not? You do know that a lot of Muslim countries that people of that country look exactly like us, and Ireland has had Muslims in the country for a few generations.

And forgive me, but the only implying you seem to be coming across is persons looks defines if they are Muslim or not because there is no real other way of telling if they are Muslim easily or not.

Or to add to that, unless your friends with a person it is very hard to say what they do outside.

I'd say those less willing to integrate would be more to do with the ex-Pat attitude/homesickness and less of one of religon.

btw, anyone wants to discuss the france riots there is an ongoing thread already.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=319993

Suff

Hobbes wrote:

And your basis for this information is? What exactly?

My own experiance , Duh!

Hobbes wrote:

How do you know if the person is muslim or not? You do know that a lot of Muslim countries that people of that country look exactly like us, and Ireland has had Muslims in the country for a few generations.

Looks is not the issue, it's the way of life and interaction.
Islam defines the way you live your life, it's not only a faith, its a way of life, thats how I would know, like the commetment to daily prayers, food and their prospective on life.

Hobbes wrote:

And forgive me, but the only implying you seem to be coming across is persons looks defines if they are Muslim or not because there is no real other way of telling if they are Muslim easily or not.

I forgive you , but like I said above, it's not on looks it's the way of life.
take myself as an example, I don't have the distingtive arabic look, (Syrian's don't look arabic) but I am one, the only visible statment that I am a muslim is my commetment to daily prayers (Pray when Prayer time is due) and my prefrence on food (no pork/Alcholol).
when it comes to the comunity I am known to be a muslim only because people asks.

Hobbes wrote:

Or to add to that, unless your friends with a person it is very hard to say what they do outside.

sure, but you can see what people do from any local social / community activities or even on a larger scale.

Hobbes wrote:

I'd say those less willing to integrate would be more to do with the ex-Pat attitude/homesickness and less of one of religon.

as a point... maybe however we don't see much interactin in the public eyes, it would be mainly negative feedback from the media.

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

And forgive me, but the only implying you seem to be coming across is persons looks defines if they are Muslim or not because there is no real other way of telling if they are Muslim easily or not.

Very true, especially with Male Muslims. Female Muslims would be easier to spot(headscarves etc)

I'd say those less willing to integrate would be more to do with the ex-Pat attitude/homesickness and less of one of religon.

True, people tend to hang out like with like and as religion(not just Islam) is a binding force in any community, I would suppose it also has a large part to play in that. Islam may be more prone to that as it is more a way of life as Suff suggests. Christianity as an example has become a little less outwardly visible in many peoples lives so that clubbing together may be less apparent(I'm thinking of the many eastern Europeans living here, most of which would be Russian orthodox, but they generally wouldn't stand out as much, in dress etc).

tonyj

Suff wrote:

Any thoughts on what Irish Muslims should do to establish a healthy integration into the Irish society?

Why is integration so important anyway, and what are the benefits to Muslims?

Muslims share a common culture and lifestyle, so integrating with other Muslims is logical. Why go to the effort of integrating with a society which is based around so many things which do not conform to the Muslim way of life (pubs, drinking, gambling etc.)?

What does integration mean? - And how do you define when integration has been achieved?

Does it mean acknowledging Muslims in the supermarket? - Waving at them on their way to the mosque? - Saying hello to them as they walk into their house? - What exactly would make a Muslim feel 'integrated'?

Wibbs

tonyj wrote:

Does it mean acknowledging Muslims in the supermarket? - Waving at them on their way to the mosque? - Saying hello to them as they walk into their house? - What exactly would make a Muslim feel 'integrated'?

All of the above going both ways would be a start anyway. Kinda the 1st in the list happened to me last night. Well he knocked me over by mistake. Nice chap though, very friendly. Had a chat about the cost of living while at the checkout later(collective moan actually) and this lad you would not mistake for anything but a Muslim. Arabic, with all the gear and the big flowing beard. Precisely the type that your prejudiced types would freak out about.:rolleyes: He seemed "integrated" enough to me(God bless the eddie hobbs factor. Brings everyone together ).

wes

Wibbs wrote:

Very true, especially with Male Muslims. Female Muslims would be easier to spot(headscarves etc)

A lot don't wear the scarf. Actually pretty much all the Muslim women I know don't wear one.

Wibbs

wes wrote:

A lot don't wear the scarf. Actually pretty much all the Muslim women I know don't wear one.

Oh right, I thought that while there may be more extreme versions, at least the hair had to be covered.

Qadri

Originally Posted by wes
A lot don't wear the scarf. Actually pretty much all the Muslim women I know don't wear one.

All of them are not following Islam practically than. May Allah (swt) give them hidayah, amin.

To wear a scarf r is Fard (compulsary) according to Islamic Shariah.
Woman are not supposed to cover the face, but if one wishes to do so its allowed.