Irish Muslims integration into the Irish society

Suff

tonyj wrote:

Why is integration so important anyway, and what are the benefits to Muslims?

Stop the isolation for a start, eqality when it comes to jobs and might stop people from stearing when they see a woman wearing the hijab (Head scarf)
...funny why don't they stear when a nun walk by?

tonyj wrote:

Muslims share a common culture and lifestyle.

In correct, as Muslims come from different cultures and backgrounds each has it's own unique way of life.

tonyj wrote:

Why go to the effort of integrating with a society which is based around so many things which do not conform to the Muslim way of life (pubs, drinking, gambling etc.)?

I'm not saying they should become part of the list you gave, I think it would be better for educating people on what muslims are and how to deal with them and for the muslims to learn how to deal with non-muslims.

tonyj wrote:

What exactly would make a Muslim feel 'integrated'?

Become recognised as a national member of the state (example,..Ireland, Holland and the UK) other than just a Muslim from Imigrant parents.
Live life with ease with other people and try to benefit and work towards the goodness of the state and community.

IMO first thing they need to do is to adopt the state as their "HOME"
work and live as if they are at their "origional" homeland.

HelterSkelter

Qadri wrote:

All of them are not following Islam practically than. May Allah (swt) give them hidayah, amin.

To wear a scarf r is Fard (compulsary) according to Islamic Shariah.
Woman are not supposed to cover the face, but if one wishes to do so its allowed.

I thought the Qur'an said it was optional?

tonyj

Suff wrote:

Stop the isolation for a start, eqality when it comes to jobs and might stop people from stearing when they see a woman wearing the hijab (Head scarf) ...funny why don't they stear when a nun walk by?

Do you have examples of Muslims being discriminated against while looking for a job? - Discrimination based on ground of sex, religion or age is taken very seriously in this country. If you have specific examples then let us know.

Muslim women wearing hijab are a relatively new addition to society. People here are used to seeing nuns on the street. If a nun from Ireland walked down a street in a Muslim country, I'm sure she would be stared at as well.

Do you have any other examples of 'isolation'?

Suff wrote:

In correct, as Muslims come from different cultures and backgrounds each has it's own unique way of life.

My point was that the Muslim lifestyle is dictated by their religious beliefs, it has this at its core, and is a common trait regardless of home country.

Suff wrote:

I'm not saying they should become part of the list you gave, I think it would be better for educating people on what muslims are and how to deal with them and for the muslims to learn how to deal with non-muslims.

'Deal with them'? They are in this country, they have jobs, friends, their religion, their lifestyle. Nobody is interfering with that. What is there to deal with?

Suff wrote:

Become recognised as a national member of the state (example,..Ireland, Holland and the UK) other than just a Muslim from Imigrant parents.

Immigration laws apply to all immigrants equally. There are no laws which state that Muslim immigrants should be treated any differently.

When an immigrant (Muslim or otherwise) becomes an Irish citizen, then the state treats them the same way as any other Irish citizen. I can't see how Muslims are getting a raw deal here.

Suff wrote:

Live life with ease with other people and try to benefit and work towards the goodness of the state and community.

'Living life with ease' is an individual choice. The state has no control over whether someone decides to live their life with ease or not.

If that's your definition of integration, then it seems that native Irish Catholics aren't even integrated yet, let alone immigrant Muslims.

Suff wrote:

IMO first thing they need to do is to adopt the state as their "HOME" work and live as if they are at their "origional" homeland.

This statement contradicts itself. If they adopt the state as their 'Home', then they should work and live according to the laws and customs of the state, not their original homeland (religious customs aside).

Otherwise we would face a difficult situation attempting to merge Shariah law with Irish state law.

Osman

Peace HelterSkelter,

HelterSkelter wrote:

I thought the Qur'an said it was optional?

No, the Qur'an is quite clear on the issue.

(24:31) Surah An-Noor (the light) verse 31
وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا لِبُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَائِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَاء بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَائِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَاء بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي أَخَوَاتِهِنَّ أَوْ نِسَائِهِنَّ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُنَّ أَوِ التَّابِعِينَ غَيْرِ أُوْلِي الْإِرْبَةِ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ أَوِ الطِّفْلِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَى عَوْرَاتِ النِّسَاء وَلَا يَضْرِبْنَ بِأَرْجُلِهِنَّ لِيُعْلَمَ مَا يُخْفِينَ

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.

Regards,

Osman

Wibbs

To Wes, Helterskelter and Osman, maybe a seperate thread on the wearing of hijab might be in order, as there does seem to be some discussion on this matter. I've seen some Muslim women wearing anything from a headscarf to a the full covering as described by Osman in his last post. As Wes said there are Muslim women who don't wear a headscarf generally(I'm thinking of Muslims in Croatia and places like that). Is there any leeway in the translation? Is there any difference on the translation of Juyubihinna? (Qadri springs to mind as someone with the knowledge to give some answer).

grubber

Osman wrote:

Peace HelterSkelter,



No, the Qur'an is quite clear on the issue.

(24:31) Surah An-Noor (the light) verse 31
وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا لِبُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَائِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَاء بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَائِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَاء بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي أَخَوَاتِهِنَّ أَوْ نِسَائِهِنَّ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُنَّ أَوِ التَّابِعِينَ غَيْرِ أُوْلِي الْإِرْبَةِ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ أَوِ الطِّفْلِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَى عَوْرَاتِ النِّسَاء وَلَا يَضْرِبْنَ بِأَرْجُلِهِنَّ لِيُعْلَمَ مَا يُخْفِينَ

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.

Regards,

Osman

Ugh! for a minute there I had a horrible feeling of being plunged back to the middle ages and oppressive religious intolerance. Glad it was only a dream!

OfflerCrocGod

Osman wrote:

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.

The more I learn the less I like it. It's like Xanity !

Qadri

To Wes, Helterskelter and Osman, maybe a seperate thread on the wearing of hijab might be in order, as there does seem to be some discussion on this matter. I've seen some Muslim women wearing anything from a headscarf to a the full covering as described by Osman in his last post. As Wes said there are Muslim women who don't wear a headscarf generally(I'm thinking of Muslims in Croatia and places like that). Is there any leeway in the translation? Is there any difference on the translation of Juyubihinna? (Qadri springs to mind as someone with the knowledge to give some answer).

The Islamic Shariah is made from Quran and authentic sayings of the Prophet (SAW) In the verse quoted the word Juyubihinna refers to the bossom ( which is attractive part of woman for most man) so it should be covered.

The explaination and implementation is given through an authentic Hadith that a Lady asked the Prophet (SAW) what should be covered of the woman's body. The Prophet (SAW) said except of the face , hands and feet a woman must cover evertyghing in front of a Ghair Mahram (someone with who a woman can not marry like father brother uncle etc.)

So from these 2 sources (The Quran verse and the Sahih Hadith) the scholars of Islamic Fiqh (Jurisprudence) have perceived that scarf is complsary.

Wibbs

Yep I figured Qadri would have an answer .

As a matter of interest, many far eastern Muslim women don't wear the Arabic form of dress. They may wear trousers, headscarf etc, which would seem to cover up all the parts mentioned and follow the Quranic instruction pretty well. Is this form of dress acceptable to Muslims in general? I ask as the more complete veiling seems to be more "religious" for want of a better word.

Qadri

As a matter of interest, many far eastern Muslim women don't wear the Arabic form of dress. They may wear trousers, headscarf etc, which would seem to cover up all the parts mentioned and follow the Quranic instruction pretty well. Is this form of dress acceptable to Muslims in general? I ask as the more complete veiling seems to be more "religious" for want of a better word.

Yes it is acceptable by Shariah as long as the clothes cover the parts described above and also the clothes should not be tight so that the shape can be seen.

The more complete veiling is also permissible, but this is not compulsary. If one wears that with Free will , it is rewarded also.

And Allah knows best...

Wibbs

Qadri wrote:

also the clothes should not be tight so that the shape can be seen.

That kinda rules out trousers though, as the shape can be seen. So we're back to the full thing again I suppose. Does it actually state the bit about the shape as well?(sorry to hijack the thread BTW)

Qadri

That kinda rules out trousers though, as the shape can be seen. So we're back to the full thing again I suppose. Does it actually state the bit about the shape as well?(sorry to hijack the thread BTW)

It does not rule out loose trousers. It rules out tight trousers which are weared now a days for example. According to Shariah its not allowed to wear tight clothes because this will create attraction and impure toughts...

HelterSkelter

Qadri wrote:

That kinda rules out trousers though, as the shape can be seen. So we're back to the full thing again I suppose. Does it actually state the bit about the shape as well?(sorry to hijack the thread BTW)

It does not rule out loose trousers. It rules out tight trousers which are weared now a days for example. According to Shariah its not allowed to wear tight clothes because this will create attraction and impure toughts...

Quadri, check your PM's, I sent you one. Thanks.

Wibbs

Qadri wrote:

It does not rule out loose trousers. It rules out tight trousers which are weared now a days for example. According to Shariah its not allowed to wear tight clothes because this will create attraction and impure toughts...

Oh right. I just asked as there do seem to be some differences in attitude to this dress code. Thanks for the info.

RPGGAMER

Poblachtach wrote:

Non irish muslims , in my opinion and from what i have met, are extremely mannerly and lovely people

THeres lots around UL wehere i live and i think they are great. a bit shy/quiet though. but friendly smiles and all.

Qadri

Hello RPGGamer,

Welcome to the Islam board.
Good to see new people here.

Please kee visiting the Islam board

Kind Regards,

Qadri