Attic Conversion - do we need steel

rooferPete

Hi C Fodder,

There was nothing wrong with your post because you gave information that you knew applied to some attic conversions.

I too have seen attics coverted with 5" x 2" ceiling joists used as the floor joists and they worked well because they did not span any large area and were usually part of a cut roof.

The extra strength was obtained by using the studded walls inside the roof purlins (room side) and in some cases steel straps were used to fix the ceiling joists to the purlin or the rafters.

What you didn't do was try to advise di11on about load bearing of different sizes of timbers that really had nothing to do with the question asked, you posted in good faith based on your observation and long may you continue to do so because your observation and memory can be a great help to others.

A long post comprising of basically rubbish based on part knowledge gained from partial reading of what can be complex data.

Instead of reading the previous posts and either passing on because you have nothing to offer or enforcing the opinions of the previous posters with your own that a professional Engineer was needed for safety or just good building practice.

As usual Patrido did not read the previous posts, but instead of typing where he is wrong in the last post I will give him the chance to correct his own drival.

.

patrido

good man spooferPete... if you can't win by attacking the argument, then attack the person.

rooferPete

Hi Patrido,

On Boards.ie I am known by three names, one being my screen name or handle rooferPete, the others being Peter or Mr. Crawley.

Might I suggest that you stay within those parameters ?

I happen to use my real name and contact details, there is no need to try and appear smart by changing any of letters in my name, in fact you have just proved how childish you really are.

.

mad m

patrido wrote:

spooferPete...

Yup no need for name calling.After all we are adults,arent we?

Stoner

For my two cent, what I can see is that start of this thread there was a bit of a big deal made about patridos comment, I think this got up his nose a bit, and it might have gotten up mine too had it happened to me.
The experience of some is often shoved down the neck of other posters this can be annoying.
I also do feel that some people are looking for work here regardless of what they say time and time again.
I know people who get work here, and I know people who have come here looking for people to do work for them, why show links to your workplace, have more than one name ot a name with a trade in it etc I'm actually surprised that this row took so long to happen. I dont think there is any harm in looking for and getting work here I'm not commenting on it or the rules, but it's obvious that it happens here.
I like this forum, I try to answer questions on electrical items as I have some experience in this area, I also comment on things I'm no expert on and other suggestions on these threads have shown my lack of knowledge in these areas. I still feel that a general informed comment is allowed within this forum.
What can happen is that people respond to a general comment and their response can seem very condescending. In fact no offence to patrido, but he was kind of laughed at. I know that people are going to respond by saying that you should not comment if your not right etc but it is just a forum to discuss things, people have to decide what value they place on that advice themselves.

Macy

Staying out of the bitch fight.... To the op, I'd be suspicious of any builder that won't work off proper plans drawn up by an engineer or architect. I really don't know what possible logic they could use, bar they want to take short cuts themselves.

patrido

Stoner wrote:

In fact no offence to patrido, but he was kind of laughed at. I know that people are going to respond by saying that you should not comment if your not right etc but it is just a forum to discuss things, people have to decide what value they place on that advice themselves.

thanks for your input Stoner.

it's good to hear that i wasn't the only one with a few suspicions. But to be fair, I don't think there is any doubt about the experience and the willingness to help of certain people, and if all links, email addresses, phone numbers, etc, were removed, it would remove any hint of suspicion about their motives. there seems to be lots of other professionals posting here and on other boards, who don't give any personal details out.

you're right, i did get my nose out of joint... i suppose doubly so, because despite what was being claimed, my original post was 100% correct. up to 6m in normal circumstances, commonly available timber can be used. small basic changes have to be made for things like dormers and partitions. beyond that different arrangements are required, and usually they involve steel. this information (as opposed to advice, which is what I charge people for day to day) is 100% correct.

having a degree in engineering and a lot of experience, i say that with confidence. i know that doesn't make me an authority of any kind as i'm not specifically a structural engineer, but unlike most readers of the span tables, i not only know how to read them, but have a sound understanding of the engineering principles behind them.

i could have tolerated some abuse if i was actually encouraging someone to act on this information alone, but i specifically told anyone reading not to act on it, but to employ a professional engineer to discuss all the issues. i thought this was so important that i made sure to say it twice, even though the previous posters had also said it.

i didn't counter the claims being made at the time, because I believe that in the heat of some arguments you will get no satisfaction, and it would have been a waste of time.

I apologise to everyone for my part in making things worse than they needed to be.

kadman

Hi Patrido, hi Stoner,

It appears to me boys , that you are inclined to believe that I am posting here for the benefit of advertising for, or attracting work. If that is your opinion of me , be man enough to say so specifically.

I have already challenged Patrido to prove, either by posting a thread, or indeed a poll, or anyone else for that matter, to prove the loose accusations about trolling for work.

I can absolutely guarantee you that you wont find one person to post, that they have been charged for any information or advice given by me. So either put up or shut up on that score, if it is directed towards me.

I assume that your quote " you're right i did get my nose out of joint", is an admission that you left out a pertinent piece of information in relation to the understanding of the span tables. Would you accept that.

I would not agree that your original post was correct, as it left out a very important piece of data while reading the span tables. I dont see it as a fruitful exercise arguing with you any more on the point. But what I will do is post the span table, and relevent addition on the bottom of the table, where it clearly states.

" This table does not allow for pointloads such as partitions, or loads from dormercheek studs ect"

I assume that you were quoting from IS 444 span tables, if I am incorrect, please advise me.

As you have stated that " you know how to read them ". How did you manage to leave out the reference to the loads issue.

I am not posting in reference to any of your beliefs in your level of knowledge in relation to building construction. I have now formed my own opinion on that score. But more so to your vague assumptions that I am seeking work through the boards. I have not made a personal attack on you, or your reasons for posting on the boards. But on the information you are posting.

I suspect that you are envious of certain posters here, and that you realise that you will never attain the level of understanding and professionalism that they have reached, and that is the real reason for your nose being out of joint.

I have posted the span tables for other posters, so that they may see for them selves whether the point in question that was left out by you, was important or not. I would welcome your confirmation as to whether we are talking about the same tables. I believe we are, but am open to correction on that.

Tim

patrido

hi kadman, yes, that's the one.

there are lots and lots of other details that could have been added to the information i posted, based on all sorts of load and support scenarios. but i was answering the question that was asked... "do we need steel". my answer was... only an engineer can discuss *all the issues*, but *normally* up to 6m you probably don't (need steel), and beyond 6m you probably do.

the original poster did not ask about dormers or any other type of load. and i was not doing a specification for him, or even giving him instructions. i gave an example from the tables, to show that in any event much bigger than the previously mentioned 7x2 would be required.

btw, dormers and partitions parallel to the joists are usually dealt with by doubling up the relevant joists, so again steel is not usually needed in normal circumstances.

i resent being persistently and pedantically asked to justify this post, as if i was being employed by the original poster, and was being negligent in not discussing all sorts of scenarios that were not part of the original question. This in my humble opinion is missing the point of internet forums, and missing specific references in several posts to getting professional advice. I'm always very careful in this regard, and sometimes I feel like my signature should be "go get an electrician/engineer/whatever"

I totally accept that you may never have solicited or taken payment from any boarder, but by having it in your signature, your website is always only one click away, and it specifically invites work on the first page.

you are quite right to be proud of your achievements and skills, but advertising is against the ethos of boards, and by removing the link you would be seen to be beyond reproach.

only one other poster on this board (or any other board that i know of) engages in this practice and he has admitted taking work (even if it did fall through at the last minute).

kind regards
patrick

rooferPete

Hi Macy,

You will find I have posted photos of a truss roof that does not need steel support for di11on to view and get a better idea of what I meant by removing structural timbers.

I fully agree with your post, all builders should be willing to work as instructed by an Architect or Engineer, I would go further by adding the professionals can add a comfort zone for the contractor as he is not responsible for working to the drawings and specification provided.


Hi All,

There are some who rightly think I post my name and a link to my web site looking for work, the reason I say "rightly" is because human nature being what it is that is how it appears.

My reason for posting using the name rooferPete, my real name and my web address is based on principle, I believe that if I am going to post in the manner I do and with the reference to products or services especially when I post in the negative the manufacturer retailer, or consumer should have the right of reply to a real person.

While I did survey a roof for a Boards member I supplied a detailed specification and costing having read his surveyors report which was a good one but had a costing on it that was a portion of my figure.

The number of people who have sent me private emails asking me to do work for them is too many to count, they all have received what is almost a stock answer I don't post for the advertising benefit.

Unlike others I don't wait for a topic to appear and PM the person advising them of the range of services I offer, BTW I was wrong there was another member I visited who had a leak in a roof and we discussed the cause and options available.

The chances are I would have been recommended there anyway as another tradesman I know was working on the house and would have called me anyway to see if I was available.

I will be away for a few days on a training course related to another business I have, may I suggest that whoever has an objection to signatures such as mine hold a poll, if the result is for the format then I will leave it, if the majority would prefer I remove my name and web link I will do so.

The reason I am suggesting this is not as a challenge to Patrido (who in my view by the way he posted appeared to be acting as a professional) but to avoid any embarrasment to the moderators who gave their permission for me to use that web link as my signature.

I have many more domain names that I use for my contracting business and still further more that relate to other business interests I have in Ireland, New Zealand, and America.

So it might be a good idea to broaden the poll to all web links or somebody else may find themselves asked to remove the link and take offence.

For the record,

I stand by every post on this and other threads as they are all made in good faith.

.

Eve1

I have to admit that I feel quite reassured when people display their weblink in their signature as it means they have nothing to hide and they are providing advise that they would stand by. The web is such a faceless place that adding personal details in signatures has created a unique community atmosphere in the gardening DIY section, that has built up this level of willingness to help each other. I personally wouldn't want it any other way. On the same token the web is faceless and therefore people can cause offence without realising it. I think you should all kiss and make up

Eve;)

Builderwoman!

I second Eve1's opinion above. I do find it reassuring if people give their weblink in their signature. It shows they are prepared to stand over their advice. I've only recently joined these boards and have found great advice/tips from one and all, Eve, Patridio, Yop, CJ, Mothman, Rooferpete etc etc. Rooferpete and Patridio even took the time to email me personally which I very very much appreciated. Both gave very good advice/opinions to me. I have to say this is a great forum. Anyone who shares and gives advice gives it because they feel they have something to contibute. We have all found answers to some of our building dilemmas here or at least a different way of looking at the challenges we continue to meet on a daily basis!! Like many others have said you should always seek the services of professionals and get several different inspections, quotes etc but I personally also value the opnions of people on the boards who are the same as ourselves: "trying to build the best house we can on a budget, looking for the best value and advice and where possible taking the advice of many others in similar circumstances into account when making decisions". I also value the opinions of those in the trade who take the time to post. (They restore my faith in tradesmen as so many I have found wouldn't even answer their mobile or return a call to a potential customer, let alone give advice or opinions) Sharing information is what the www and this forum is all about. Please guys, don't get side tracked, let's get back to the business of doing just that. Listen to the women...........................
you know we really do know best.....!!! JOKE JOKE!!!

kadman

Hi Patrido,

If my signature is so offensive to you, I have no objection if you contact the mods or admins, and if they request me to remove it, I will. I would have no problem in conforming to their wishes. Just for the record, I never contacted any one to request the format , or use of my weblink.

I would also be willing to abide by the result of any poll on the issue of web signatures. So get polling Patrido.

And " I " am fully aware of the concepts of timberframe design, and the use of joists in parrallel arrangements. And I am so glad that you used the descriptive term " usually ".

You appear to be very fond of throwing accusations around, about soliciting for work. But you are extremely slow at giving foundation to your accusations. As I have said before, either put up or shut up, on the work trolling issue.

kadman:)

seamus

Heh, I love this place, you never know what's going to happen next.

I did explain to Patrido earlier on today, so there's probably no need to further defend yourselves.

boards.ie's position is as Victor posted:

Victor wrote:

Regarding advertising, yes it is generally frowned upon on boards.ie. However, it is generally accepted that someone who is a member of the community, who gives as much as they take, are prefectly entitled to include a single reference to their website in their sig. I would be disappointed if nobody made any money or other gain out of contact they made through the community.

When people start discussing things in their area of expertise and business, small things can quickly turn into big arguments, and you'd be surprised how childish people get. The Web Hosting board was shut down for exactly those reasons - threads like this where an innocent question somehow erupts into accusations and eventually libel. I'd hate to see that happen here.

di11on, if you still have questions or comments about your issue, let me know and I can strip out the crap from this thread for you.

WhiteWashMan

kadman wrote:

You appear to be very fond of throwing accusations around, about soliciting for work. But you are extremely slow at giving foundation to your accusations. As I have said before, either put up or shut up, on the work trolling issue.

kadman:)

i would also suggest you pipe down as well.

anymore guff from anyone here and there will be bannings.

if anyone has an issue, then either put it on the feedback form, log a helpdesk ticket, or contact one of the mods.

other than that, stop whinging and bítching at each other.
god, it like a bleedin creche in here...

yop

The first bee utch figh in DIY!! Reminds me of Soccer boards!!! Everyones advice and expertise is invaluable, in fairness talking to all 3 involved I have gained masses of knowledge from all the "contestants" in this bout!

I think that as Seamus said with the serious amount of knowledge and advise the lads have given us it really should not be an issue with their websites been in the sigs.

Best of luck to all, great to see that DIY can generate passionate discussion!! Up she flew

Builderwoman!

Agree with Yop that Patridio, Kadman and Rooferpete (and yourself Yop and so many others) have given me invaluable advice since I joined. I hope all of ye will continue to do so. Everyone should let this post die off and if as the mods said if di110n needs to have the advice edited they can help. Life is too short and this house building is too much flippin hard work to continue with this arguement!!!