[article] Judge Throw 'L' Cases Out Of Court

Bluetonic

Article from todays motoring section of The Irish Times.

Image created on 1280*1024 resolution and designed for optimal reading on such.

kluivert

Cant read that, its too small

GoneShootin

What resolution you on? I can read it fine at 1280*1024

seamus

If anyone's interested, this is the relevant section:

(6) (a) In this sub-article "qualified person" means a person who holds a driving licence in respect of the vehicle category being driven.

(b) Subject to paragraph (c) of this sub-article, a provisional licence shall, on coming into effect, licence the holder to drive a vehicle of any category for which the licence is granted on any occasion during the period specified in the licence provided that the following conditions are complied with—

(i) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category A1, A or M shall not carry a passenger in or on such a vehicle,

(ii) a person provisionally licensed to drive a vehicle shall not carry in the vehicle any passenger for reward,

(iii) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1, or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless there are displayed on the vehicle rectangular plates or signs bearing the letter "L" not less than fifteen centimetres high in red on a white ground, in clearly visible vertical positions to the front and rear of the vehicle,

(iv) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless he or she is accompanied by and is under the supervision of a qualified person,

(v) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category W shall not carry a passenger in or on such a vehicle unless the vehicle is constructed or adapted to carry a passenger and such passenger is a qualified person,

(vi) notwithstanding article 6 of these Regulations, a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1 or D shall not drive such a vehicle while the vehicle is drawing a trailer.

(c) (i) The condition set out in paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply while the holder of the licence is driving a vehicle in the course of undergoing a driving test or driving a vehicle of a category in respect of which he or she holds a valid certificate of competency, or, where that certificate contains a statement that in relation to a category of vehicle it is limited to a specified type of vehicle, while he or she is driving a vehicle of that type.

(ii) The condition at paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply to a vehicle which is constructed or adapted for use by a person suffering from a physical handicap and which is not constructed or adapted to carry a passenger.

(iii) The condition at paragraph (b) (iv) of this sub-article shall not apply to the driving of a vehicle in category B by a person to whom a provisional licence in respect of vehicles in class C under the revoked regulations was granted prior to 12 August, 1985 or to a person who is driving a vehicle in category B during the period of validity of a second provisional licence granted to him or her in respect of such vehicles.

From: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI352Y1999.html#ZZSI352Y1999A19

I can see the Judge's point. Based purely on this piece of legislation, driving without L plates, or without a qualified driver are not in themselves actual offences. Doing so does create a secondary offence of driving unlicenced (and also uninsured) since the driver is not licenced if any of the conditions are breached.

Curious.

unkel

That's shocking news for L-drivers. Never mind that not displaying the L-plates or driving un-accompanied is no longer an offence, I'd be very worried that the judge now deems those drivers to be uninsured :eek:

Turner

it would only make your insurance void if your licence was expired. Check most insurance certs...


Covered Driving.
The insured... providing they hold a valid licence to drive the said vehicle.

seamus

Chief--- wrote:

it would only make your insurance void if your licence was expired. Check most insurance certs...


Covered Driving.
The insured... providing they hold a valid licence to drive the said vehicle.

Yeah, but if you read that section, your licence is invalidated if you breach any of the terms of the licence.

I have argued in the past that the insurance company must cover them, but having actually read this, it doesn't seem so clear.

Guy:Incognito

This is poxy ridiculous. Not only is there a system n place whereby anyone can just jump in a car and drive, it turns out they are not breaking the law. Whoever drafted that piece of legislation should be done for wasting police time.

They should take this opportunity where they will have to change the law anyway, to change it so that provisional licence drivers cannot drive full stop, outside of actualy learning. If they introduce a minimum number of learning hours (to be proven with receipts) then it shouldnt interfere too much with waiting times.If needs be appoint my testers in the short term.

miju

Stekelly wrote:

This is poxy ridiculous. Not only is there a system n place whereby anyone can just jump in a car and drive, it turns out they are not breaking the law. Whoever drafted that piece of legislation should be done for wasting police time.

They should take this opportunity where they will have to change the law anyway, to change it so that provisional licence drivers cannot drive full stop, outside of actualy learning. If they introduce a minimum number of learning hours (to be proven with receipts) then it shouldnt interfere too much with waiting times.If needs be appoint my testers in the short term.

im sorry but that is one of the most retarded ideas i've ever heard, EVER

I take it you have a full license, did it ever cross your mind that alot of people on provisionals failed their tests on something stupid (some people say to fill quotas im not so sure on that one) and are actually very competent drivers, hell i'd even go so far as to say that IMO theres an AWFUL alot of L drivers who are miles better drivers on the road than fully licensed drivers, you should be done for wasting my time :-)

michaelanthony

I've got a court appearance for driving unaccompanied on a provisional coming up soon. Does this mean that my case will be thrown out as well?

seamus

michaelanthony wrote:

I've got a court appearance for driving unaccompanied on a provisional coming up soon. Does this mean that my case will be thrown out as well?

Not necessarily. It's only this Judge who's throwing out the cases. Other Judges can still prosecute since the interpretation is disputed.

I know surprisingly little about the legal system here, but afaik unless someone challenges their conviction in the supreme court, you can be convicted and your conviction won't be overturned, even if they change/clarify the legislation.

Guy:Incognito

_raptor_ wrote:

im sorry but that is one of the most retarded ideas i've ever heard, EVER

I take it you have a full license, did it ever cross your mind that alot of people on provisionals failed their tests on something stupid (some people say to fill quotas im not so sure on that one) and are actually very competent drivers, hell i'd even go so far as to say that IMO theres an AWFUL alot of L drivers who are miles better drivers on the road than fully licensed drivers, you should be done for wasting my time :-)

So if its a quota based system and pot luck, why not just abolish it and sell everyone theyre licences for €500/ They would'nt have to employ testers and they'ds be making €500 for a bit of paper. I like you attitude in favouring driver education. Whats the point of a test that if you fail your basically allowed to go ahead and do they act anyway.

If you needed life saving surgery and the surgeon wasnt qualified, would you want him doing the job? IT's peoples lives we're dealing with and the only way to stop people dying is to better educate people.

miju

while im no legal expert in anyway shape or form, i'd recommend printing off that article and giving it to your solicitor, because im sure that sets some kind of legal precendent that any solicitor worth his salt would be able to use to get you off the hook

miju

Stekelly wrote:

So if its a quota based system and pot luck, why not just abolish it and sell everyone theyre licences for €500/ They would'nt have to employ testers and they'ds be making €500 for a bit of paper. I like you attitude in favouring driver education. Whats the point of a test that if you fail your basically allowed to go ahead and do they act anyway.

If you needed life saving surgery and the surgeon wasnt qualified, would you want him doing the job? IT's peoples lives we're dealing with and the only way to stop people dying is to better educate people.

sorry dude thats a complete bull**** reply and you know it, for start i actually said that i wasn't so sure that there is a quota system in place but that OTHERS claim there is.

secondly, surgery and driving a car is two complete different things and require 2 immensely different skills/levels of studying, might as well compare chalk and cheese

Again i'll revert to my argument that just because you have a full license doesnt mean your a better driver than someone with a provisional

I drive on the M50 quiet alot and it's funny bcause i've NEVER noticed an L driver up the arse of another car (about 5-10m away) doing 120km or L drivers lashing in and out of lanes in very small gaps, and yes i know that L drivers aint allowed on motorways but i think everyone knows its very common

ballooba

I do this. Have applied for a test date. Didn't think the guards would pull you up on it unless you did something wrong. Was in an accident last year while in a car with a provisional driver.

Other party to the crash asked if the driver of my car had a full licence. Garda told them to 'shut up' that it did not make any difference, as they were at fault.

John R

_raptor_ wrote:

sorry dude thats a complete bull**** reply and you know it, for start i actually said that i wasn't so sure that there is a quota system in place but that OTHERS claim there is.

So a mate of yours heard from his ma that some bloke in the pub said it was true, or something like that. Well then it MUST be true.

_raptor_ wrote:

Again i'll revert to my argument that just because you have a full license doesnt mean your a better driver than someone with a provisional

No. It just means that you have passed a basic test to prove that you are up capable of controlling a car up to a minimum standard. The very least that should be done is to stop those that have not achieved that minimum qualification from having free unhindered access to the roads. Allowing unqualified drivers on the roads without supervision is not tolerated in other European countries, but I suppose the Irish are just "special"

_raptor_ wrote:

I drive on the M50 quiet alot and it's funny bcause i've NEVER noticed an L driver up the arse of another car (about 5-10m away) doing 120km or L drivers lashing in and out of lanes in very small gaps, and yes i know that L drivers aint allowed on motorways but i think everyone knows its very common

How do you know who is a learner or not, it is obvious from this thread that non-display of L plates is common.

Alun

Pathetic. Wouldn't it have been better for aforementioned judge, instead of sending out the signal that it's perfectly OK for unqualified, inexperienced drivers to just jump in a car and drive away to their hearts' desire, to have quietly whispered in the ear of someone in the dept. of justice that the wording of the legislation was dodgy, and suggest they do something about it pdq?

ballooba

Everyone knows that the test does not make sense. my driving instructor says to me all the time that I am preparing for a test that doesn't make sense and that I have to exagerate certain things and do certain things that don't always make sense.

These are completely unsolicitied comments fro him and I have never questioned anything he tells me. He just knows it's bull ****.

Alun

seamus wrote:

If anyone's interested, this is the relevant section:

From: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI352Y1999.html#ZZSI352Y1999A19

I can see the Judge's point. Based purely on this piece of legislation, driving without L plates, or without a qualified driver are not in themselves actual offences. Doing so does create a secondary offence of driving unlicenced (and also uninsured) since the driver is not licenced if any of the conditions are breached.

Then surely it's just a case of rewording the charge the Gardai bring against these people in the future to one of "driving unlicenced", isn't it?

Alun

ballooba wrote:

Everyone knows that the test does not make sense. my driving instructor says to me all the time that I am preparing for a test that doesn't make sense and that I have to exagerate certain things and do certain things that don't always make sense.

So then, Einstein, what would you have them put in it's place? Or is Ireland somehow a special case where everyone is born with an innate ability to drive a car, and therfore doesn't need testing? Why can't people in this country realise that learning how to be in charge of a large lump of metal travelling at 100km/h or more is a serious business, not something you just pick up as you go along? I despair sometimes, I really do.

ballooba

Well actually i'm not Einstein but i'm flattered you thought I might be. I think he died a few years back all the same.

I think a test that actually made sense, where there wasn't a year long waiting list due to labour relations and trade union difficulties, where you can't hop into your car after the test even if you failed and drive away would make more sense.

Guy:Incognito

_raptor_ wrote:

Again i'll revert to my argument that just because you have a full license doesnt mean your a better driver than someone with a provisional

So why bother at all with licences? If there are better educated people driving, teh amounts of injuries/crashes/deaths drop. Germany have a very good driver education sytem (compared to ours its like having a college degree as opposed to lleaveing school after playschool). As a result they have a lower deaths per head ratio than us. Is that just luck?

_raptor_ wrote:

I drive on the M50 quiet alot and it's funny bcause i've NEVER noticed an L driver up the arse of another car (about 5-10m away) doing 120km or L drivers lashing in and out of lanes in very small gaps, and yes i know that L drivers aint allowed on motorways but i think everyone knows its very common

You should'nt notice L drivers full stop because they should'nt be on the motorway .Nobody whoudl be driving up the arse of anyone to make them move out if the outside lane because they shouldnt be driving in it in the first place, but again people would know this if they were better educated (they should know it anyway but people can be stupid by default)


You can replay all you like but you cannot argue against educating drivers, any idiot knows its the best way to get people to drive properly.

miju

John R wrote:

So a mate of yours heard from his ma that some bloke in the pub said it was true, or something like that. Well then it MUST be true.

your arguing a completely retundant point, i said FROM THE OUTSET that i DONT believe theres a quota system in operation, so stop flogging a dead horse

John R wrote:

No. It just means that you have passed a basic test to prove that you are up capable of controlling a car up to a minimum standard. The very least that should be done is to stop those that have not achieved that minimum qualification from having free unhindered access to the roads. Allowing unqualified drivers on the roads without supervision is not tolerated in other European countries, but I suppose the Irish are just "special"

theres plenty of people who would pass the test but have to wait a year odd for their test, should they be banned from driving as well???? cop on will ye

John R wrote:

How do you know who is a learner or not, it is obvious from this thread that non-display of L plates is common.

right i'm going to ask you some simple direct questions and id like a simple YES or NO direct answer.

1: Do you not think that there are fully licensed drivers on the road who are more of a danger than provisional license holders?

2: Do you think that just because someone hasn't sat a test for a full license means that they incompent to safely drive a car?

Guy:Incognito

_raptor_ wrote:

theres plenty of people who would pass the test but have to wait a year odd for their test, should they be banned from driving as well???? cop on will ye

No they shouldnt be "banned" but they shouldnt be allowed to drive on their own. People dotn have the ability to decide themselves whether they are good enough, thats why testing is in place. I reckon I'nm good enough to practise medicine, shure I'll pick it up as I go along. Should I be allowed to do it? Maybe I'll type myself up a certificate from the University of Stekelly.

seamus

Alun wrote:

Then surely it's just a case of rewording the charge the Gardai bring against these people in the future to one of "driving unlicenced", isn't it?

Yep. But I'd say that the 6 month limit has passed, so it's too late to make a fresh complaint.

Alun

ballooba wrote:

Well actually i'm not Einstein but i'm flattered you thought I might be. I think he died a few years back all the same.

I think a test that actually made sense, where there wasn't a year long waiting list due to labour relations and trade union difficulties, where you can't hop into your car after the test even if you failed and drive away would make more sense.

OK then, define "a test that makes sense" then, and I'm referring (as if it wasn't obvious) to the actual content of the test rather than the shortcomings of the organisation thereof.

ballooba

Alun wrote:

OK then, define "a test that makes sense" then, and I'm referring (as if it wasn't obvious) to the actual content of the test rather than the shortcomings of the organisation thereof.

I've never actually sat the test so am unaware of the exact content of it.

I do know however that there is no hill start in Finglas because there are no hills on the test route.

Turning your head around like the excorcist kid every 12 seconds hardly helps safe driving either.

Alun

ballooba wrote:

Turning your head around like the excorcist kid every 12 seconds hardly helps safe driving either.

You don't need to overdo it to such a degree, just move your head slightly to let the examiner know that you're actually looking in your mirror when you should. How else is he supposed to know? It's the same in other countries, believe me.

paconnors

I was Stoped by the guards last night checked my insurance, my tax, looked at my Prov licence only have it since may 2005, and he said to me have a safe onward journey, now a freind of mine was pulled by the local establishment 2 weeks ago and was done for driving unaccompied and he has he's licence for year and a half. I think it's town to the actual guard itself.

Thats my 2 cents

voxpop

from oasis.gov.ie

Car drivers (category with a provisional licence must be accompanied at all times by, and under the supervision of, a person with a current full driving licence to drive a car. (The only exception to this, is where the driver holds a second provisonal driving licence to drive a car).

Does this mean that:
on your first provisional you have to be accompanied
on your third/fourth/etc provisional you have to be accompanied
but on your second provisional you dont have to be accompanied

gs39t

The incredibly high failure rate in a lot of the test centers should surely be a sign that the test is too comprehensive and too badly judged. In the USA most people get their license at about 16, much higher here i assume due to cost etc, and yet we have about HALF the applicants fail? Driving isnt rocket science. YES, there are some people who cant drive worth a damn but i hardly think they account for 40-50% of applicants.

Funniest part is, legally, if you DO pass your test, only THEN can you go onto a motorway, with no motorway driving experience whatsoever. :rolleyes: Someone stuck up yer arse on the M50? Chances are its a full license holder...