Su council meetings have gone mad!

Dave!

How could you be powerless? If enough people join, then you've got a big enough mandate that the college CAN'T ignore you! Surely that'd be undemocratic if they start favouring 'this' particular group over 'this' particular group... The new group would still have grounds and a mandate to argue and discuss things with the college. I'm not saying they'd go around starting bookshops and the likes, but they'd be able to do plenty of things.

humbert

Don’t know enough about it to give a decent rant but it pisses me off to think that mine and someone elses 30e was spent bailing him out and I think it seriously detracts from the nobility of the deed when you go running to you mates to bail you out from the consequences with other peoples money.

Jonny Arson

Ah this is fantastic! I got caught stealing a Desperate Dan bar yesterday and I got a 60 yo-yo fine aswell. Thankfully the SU will pay it for me now..... woohoo!

:rolleyes:

Slash/ED

It comes as no suprise at all, which says it all. Utter nonsense.

Red Alert

A desperate dan bar? How/where did you get caught doing that?

To some of the posters above, it's actually good that the SU exists - i certainly wouldn't be on for fragmenting it, i'd prefer some sort of coup organised by the ordinary students of the council. the sabbats with the notable exception of James <Insert fianna fail membership card here> Caroll are doing an excellent job and thursday night live in particular has been really great. the shops are also brilliantly run and stock things people need at low prices, as are countless other union services. the problem is that the union's political/democratic/social/call-it-what-you-like conscience has been taken over by people more interested in non-student issues.

what we need are apolitical ordinary students (be they commitee members of societies or not) to feel that they can enter an election and win. the question is should such a grouping be set up, in essence a kind of mini political party with the sole aim of running the union for students benefit, not for special vested interest groups who would be better served elsewhere?

Syth

Red Alert wrote:

should such a grouping be set up, in essence a kind of mini political party with the sole aim of running the union for students benefit, not for special vested interest groups who would be better served elsewhere?

I'm a cynic, but that sounds like most of the other parties. And to be honest a lot of students couldn't care that much about the union because they don't think it affects them. I think if people started leaving en masse, it might be a wake up call. Basically I'm lazy and couldn't be bothered running for position, so I'd rather try to change the rules of the game.

Pythia

Is the SU saying that deportations should be gotten rid of forever? Let's make deportation illegal, illegal deportation for illegal immigrants!
Funny how Vainglory wasn't able to give a proper reponse to irlrobins comparison...

Red Alert

reading it back now i think the 'mini political party' was a very bad word choice. at least the 'coup' means that the union still has it's standing within the college. what's needed is a few people (even in the low double digits) who run on a no-nonsense apolitical "Back to basics action plan" or "Cut the crap" plan. the trouble with leaving is that basically you'd need ~500 people to leave to make any impression at all, and for the length of time any change would take you'd probably be at a loss - in theory you couldn't go to the student bar.

AngelofFire

The Union has the right to defend its members, Anti deportation has been the subject of many motions approved in council over the past few years. Darragh was defending the rights of immigrants according to the democratic mandate he was given in council. In the past students of UCD have been threatened with deportation orders, We can whinge all we want about how he was ''breaking the law'' but thats absurd because

1.The Department of Justice in carrying out many of these deportation acts have broken the geneva convention.

2. It is not a compareable to a case of a student getting drunk outside the bar or being caught shopliffting.

3. The law has been used to repress people in the past, for years homosexuals acts were criminal, and contraception was illegal, and to this very day women are not allowed make certain choices regarding their own body. The law does not always necessarily state what is good for the people We do not live in a 21st century Rome, where cesaer is always right.


Ideas of an ''apolitical'' union are most dubious. The issues that affect students such as fees, grants and cutbacks are of a political nature. From my experience many ''apolitical'' unions around the country, do very little to defend their members with regard to education and welfare issues even on a very basic level. about 3 years ago UCD had an ''apolitical'' union that did absolutely nothing to fight against cutbacks and the possible return of fees. Unions which call themselves apolitical are dominated by appathetic C.V. builiding careerist hacks. It is because of politicised activists that UCDSU is probably the best union in the country at standing up for students with regard to bread and butter issues like grants, and better funding for student services.

Red Alert

look if i carried out a straw poll in the engineering building i doubt very much anyone here really gives a toss about deportation issues. we comprise just less than a thousand people over here. it's not clear quite frankly who our representatives are because they disappear and then use my money to pay legal fees of thugs without asking me. i hardly call that an acceptable way of doing business.

Dave!

Can someone tell us why the guy was arrested? What law did he break?

AngelofFire

look if i carried out a straw poll in the engineering building i doubt very much anyone here really gives a toss about deportation issues

If you or your fellow class mates are unhappy about the unions policy with regard to anti deportation, you are more than entitled to challenge it using the democratic structures of UCDSU.

Can someone tell us why the guy was arrested? What law did he break?

Myself, himself and many other protestors were blockading a garda van outside the Garda National Immigration Beaureau, the garda van was about to take immigrants off to the airport for deportation (in doing so they were in breach of the geneva convention), the gardai got pretty rough with us after a while. I had to leave early so i didnt see the arrest. But Darragh has to appear in court.

Mr.Nice Guy

The Geneva Convention? Last time I checked Ireland was a sovereign state and the laws of the land should be respected. The idea that UCDSU is sticking its nose into issues relating to the Geneva Convention makes me sick to my stomach.

THEY ARE A STUDENT UNION.

Clearly this guy was in breach of IRISH LAW and alot of us UCD students don't want this guy getting support through OUR money.

It's a joke that my Student Union has become an apologist for criminal behaviour.

irlrobins

AngelofFire wrote:

If you or your fellow class mates are unhappy about the unions policy with regard to anti deportation, you are more than entitled to challenge it using the democratic structures of UCDSU.

so can u tell us how to table a motion that asks Darragh to pay his own fines, etc>

Stabshauptmann

The SU may do a lot of useless crap, irrelevent to students and waste a lot of money BUT the bar, shops and accomadation offices have had a MASSIVE impact on my student life. If a hord of ppl left the union, these cant survive

Stabshauptmann

A come on, an appologist for criminal behaviour. A lot of dissent across the globe and throughout time was deemed criminal at the time. What are the details of his arrest. If it was failure to comply with a garda direction eg stop protesting and move on, then pay his fine. Deportation is a student issue. But the SU should stay out of politics that dont effect students.
If he was Drunk and disorderly hang him by his testicals before he gets m money. My 2c

Red Alert

Deportation is not a student issue, it only becomes a student issue when it directly affects the welfare of students, and then should be dealt with as a welfare issue. Obviously if the government was thinking of deporting us all to Tasmania then the SU should take strong action (as well as telling us to bring shorts and SPF), but it's a minority interest which compared to fees/services/modularisation/take-your-pick it's pretty insignificant. Definitely not worth bringing UCDSU into disrepute with the law.

Mr.Nice Guy

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

A come on, an appologist for criminal behaviour. A lot of dissent across the globe and throughout time was deemed criminal at the time. What are the details of his arrest. If it was failure to comply with a garda direction eg stop protesting and move on, then pay his fine. Deportation is a student issue. But the SU should stay out of politics that dont effect students.
If he was Drunk and disorderly hang him by his testicals before he gets m money. My 2c

They are justifying their actions on the grounds that the Irish Government have been ignoring the Geneva Convention. That to me is apologising for criminal behaviour and I don't want my Union involved in that nonsense.

Just because the Irish Government might not be following the EU's environmental laws does not give me the right to break Irish environmental laws and start littering about the place.

If Dara McHugh wants to be seen as a martyr by breaking the law then that's his choice but let him do so without using my money and the money of other students.

This farcical business about UCDSU saving the world has gone on long enough. Some of these guys need to sort out their hero complex.

John_C

Tony McDonell, captain of the UCD soccer team, has to pay a 25 euro fine for getting a yellow card last weekend.

May I propose a motion to council that in future when the opposition has made three substitutions that the hard men of the soccer team be allowed to throw in the dangerous tackels safe in the knowledge that the SU will pick up the fines.

That'd be representing the students properly.

panda100

Chilax everyone!I do agree that the union should stand up for students whether it is just one student who is about to be deported or a hundred students complaining of high prices in hilpers.Just out of curiousity were the people in the garda van that he held up where they ucd students?As vainglory said ucd students were being deported TWO YEARS AGO-i was unaware that any ucd students still where?so is it really still an issue for the union this year?I'm relieved that charges werent pressed against this student and his fee's werent that high.However his actions at the protest where entirely his own and thererfore he should have paid the repercussions himself.Holding up a van for a few minutes is not going to solve the deportation problem.Its just a reckless and dangerous act.The union has really only encouraged people to do this again.What worries me now is that now the union have paid the way out for one protester they will have to pay out everyone.I am vehmently against abortion and there is an anti abortion protest on next month-maybe i might just go mad and spary paint the dail or something-since abortion is a matter that most definatly will affect a few woman in ucd i hope that when i get arrested the ucd will bail me out-only fair really since you represent ALL students however big the majority or minority
p.s Dont worry im not really going to get arrested!

Syth

I'm still curious what he was actually arrested for, and if he was ordered by the council beforehand to protest in such a manner.

If not, then he's just using his mates to get off paying a fine.

Slash/ED

It seems to me it's just the union getting involved in politics that have f**k all to do with the students as per usual. I do appreciate the work they do and as has been mentioned, bar, shops etc but this is as ever complete and utter nonsense. You're a student union, STUDENT UNION. End of story, and end of job description. Stop trying to get involved in politics that have little or nothing to do with the students. That they're paying this is a joke, if I decided to rob McDonalds in an almighty stand against an evil capitilist empire would they pay for all of my fines?

pigeonbutler

I spoke against this motion at council and was very disappointed when it passed (by a very tight margin I must say). The Students Union was given a mandate by council a few years ago (when the number of vacant council seats made council hugely unrepresentative) to "oppose" the governments deportation policy.

This does absolutely not give union members carte blanche to obstruct the states security forces from carrying out their job. This "gentleman" was engaged in this protest completely of his own initiative without any approval from UCDSU.

In order for the Union to be more representative of the views of the students you good readers of this forum should question your class reps on how they are voting on things. Let them know the views of your class (which they are obliged to represent). I would love to see the day at Council when someone of a very strong political ideology reluctantly votes against all his/her political allies on a controversial issue because their class has mandated them to do so.

Finally, can I ask a number of contributors what their problem with James Carroll has been? The man seems to me to be doing a fine job as president and a number of contributors to this thread made completely unfounded remarks deriding him, without giving ANY examples of where he has gone wrong.

Conor McGowan

I try not to get drawn into these boards, but after this was pointed out to me, I choose to comment – I did after all, table this motion.

A few points:

1) Darragh, whatever kind of insipid individual you are, you don’t represent Engineering. Take as many straw polls as you want, but if you want to speak as a class representative, then you should have put your name forward for election like some of us did. If you want to make some objective points, then go right ahead, and we can enter into some kind of useless discourse. Don’t claim to represent an entire faculty. I don’t – and I actually hold an democratically accountable position from that faculty.
2) If the state introduces some draconian laws that don’t directly affect me as an individual, then I for one will campaign against it. As a human being, I cannot stand idly by as other human beings are treated as immigrants are treated in this country. As it happens, the SU support the anti deportation campaign. If you want to come out and overturn that, get yourself elected.
3) Students don’t exist in a vacuum. Students were amongst the most vocal campaigners for the right to contraception back in the holy days when every sperm was considered sacred. This involved campaigning against a law, and occasionally breaking one too. Students also played a leading role in the Womens movement, and many other movements that have shaped our country.
Some students are Female.
Some students are Homosexual
Some students are Immigrants
Some students have pre-marital sex.
Believe it or not, it wasn’t always like this. If campaigns focusing on issues that don’t involve how many computer lab hours or library access you are entitled to offend you, then so be it. I think it is the role of the union movement to campaign for ALL these students in their own individual struggles.
4) Dara told the judge that he did indeed call a Garda a “stupid ****” after being kneed in the back and pushed around by the said Garda. That, was his crime! Personally, I think that to the wo/man, Cops are scum. We all know one or 2, and some of us have them in out family, but I would have stood in solidarity with Dara if he struck back at the Gardai that day and physically stood up for himself. EACH cop in this state holds up the most sub human laws. They are enemies of all working people and all students. The policeman, the priest, the venture capitalist. Bad apples in a barrel made of steel, one and all.
5) Daras case was thrown out of court, as was the case of the other man that day. The SU gave him €60. The price of a Hoody these days. Supporting people like Dara is ABSOLUTELY what a union is about.
6) Chris:You are a really good bloke. Don’t bother with these stupid pillocks on these stupid boards.
This is my last post on these boards. People: Get the **** out more.

Slash/ED

Conor McGowan wrote:

2) If the state introduces some draconian laws that don’t directly affect me as an individual, then I for one will campaign against it.

That's super, you're obviously a fine, fine human being.

It has as much relevence to the student union of UCD as what I had for breakfast this morning however. And it should be kept that way.

Mr.Nice Guy

Conor McGowan wrote:

2)If the state introduces some draconian laws that don’t directly affect me as an individual, then I for one will campaign against it.

Good for you! But do it on your own time like a good lad.

Conor McGowan wrote:

3)Students don’t exist in a vacuum. Students were amongst the most vocal campaigners for the right to contraception back in the holy days when every sperm was considered sacred. This involved campaigning against a law, and occasionally breaking one too. Students also played a leading role in the Womens movement, and many other movements that have shaped our country.

I love the way you do two things here. You firstly generalise ALL students and then go on to portray that because SOME students have done admirable things in the past, CURRENT students can't do a thing wrong! Aren't you the politician?!

Conor McGowan wrote:

If campaigns focusing on issues that don’t involve how many computer lab hours or library access you are entitled to offend you, then so be it.

What a great Union this is! So understanding of ALL students!

Conor McGowan wrote:

I think it is the role of the union movement to campaign for ALL these students in their own individual struggles.

Really? Well now that you mention it I'm pretty sure the guy in the SU shop gave me the wrong change the other day. Could you reimburse me please?

Conor McGowan wrote:

4)Dara told the judge that he did indeed call a Garda a “stupid ****” after being kneed in the back and pushed around by the said Garda. That, was his crime! Personally, I think that to the wo/man, Cops are scum.

More generalisations. This time it's that all cops are 'scum'. Who knew such bigotry was evident in the SU?

Conor McGowan wrote:

EACH cop in this state holds up the most sub human laws. They are enemies of all working people and all students. The policeman, the priest, the venture capitalist. Bad apples in a barrel made of steel, one and all.

Yet MORE generalisations! The police, the clergy, capitalists, who next? Westlife fans?

Conor McGowan wrote:

5)Daras case was thrown out of court, as was the case of the other man that day. The SU gave him €60. The price of a Hoody these days. Supporting people like Dara is ABSOLUTELY what a union is about.

Supporting criminals? Dear oh dear...

Conor McGowan wrote:

6)Chris:You are a really good bloke. Don’t bother with these stupid pillocks on these stupid boards.

What a charming fellow you are!

Conor McGowan wrote:

This is my last post on these boards. People: Get the **** out more.

Aw, you're leaving? But we were all enjoying your warmth and kindness! As for getting out more, you know what? You're right! We should all get out there and call Gardaí, the clergy and capitalists scum!

I didn't think much of UCDSU beforehand and I certainly don't now. People on this forum should print off caring Conor's sentiments as evidence of what UCDSU is really about!

Good job Conor! Thanks for stopping by!;)

Red Alert

Conor McGowan wrote:

1) Darragh, whatever kind of insipid individual you are, you don’t represent Engineering.

Yes try doing your research... my name's not even daragh, do you mean to tell me you people in the SU can't even remember a name?

I will reply more to your diatribe later when i've more time.

EDIT: In fact you could possibly have even found my real name lurking about boards somewhere.

humbert

Really glad to see Mr. Nice Guy took the initiative to respond to that, annoying to have read such sanctimonious rubbish. After reading that post I’m sincerely worried about the type of bigot that might be representing the UCD students. Though I instantly concede that the majority of SU members are probably perfectly nice people the tone of that post became increasingly disturbing

Dave!

Conor McGowan wrote:

2) If the state introduces some draconian laws that don’t directly affect me as an individual, then I for one will campaign against it. As a human being, I cannot stand idly by as other human beings are treated as immigrants are treated in this country. As it happens, the SU support the anti deportation campaign. If you want to come out and overturn that, get yourself elected.

If you want to oppose and picket against whatever laws, then do so on your own time and independently. Don't drag UCD's name into whatever protests you're doing, you're a students' union -- so just act like one! The Teachers' Union of Ireland don't go about with signs looking to legalise marijuana, do they? No, they act on behalf of their members about issues relating to their members, and that is it. Stick to what you exist for, and don't be using UCD's name and our money to bail people out when they break the law.

Conor McGowan wrote:

4) Dara told the judge that he did indeed call a Garda a “stupid ****” after being kneed in the back and pushed around by the said Garda. That, was his crime! Personally, I think that to the wo/man, Cops are scum. We all know one or 2, and some of us have them in out family, but I would have stood in solidarity with Dara if he struck back at the Gardai that day and physically stood up for himself. EACH cop in this state holds up the most sub human laws. They are enemies of all working people and all students. The policeman, the priest, the venture capitalist. Bad apples in a barrel made of steel, one and all.

Yeah yeah, horrible oppressors, etc., etc... If the police handled you too roughly for your liking, then get their badge numbers and lodge a complaint about the Gardaí in question. Don't call them names...

Conor McGowan wrote:

5) Daras case was thrown out of court, as was the case of the other man that day. The SU gave him €60. The price of a Hoody these days. Supporting people like Dara is ABSOLUTELY what a union is about.

No, it's not. If you want to start doing this kind of protest about irrelevent crap, then don't bring those of us not related to it into it by spending our money. So you gave Dara money. What happens when the next fella decides to hold a protest in the name of the SU, and starts, as someone else said, vandalising Leinster House? It's not your job to give money to criminals or to bail them out because they were in the same protest as you.

Conor McGowan wrote:

6) Chris:You are a really good bloke. Don’t bother with these stupid pillocks on these stupid boards.
This is my last post on these boards. People: Get the **** out more.

*yawn*

Grow up and stop trying to fight battles for the sake of it. Do your job.

Stabshauptmann

Conor McGowan wrote:

EACH cop in this state holds up the most sub human laws. They are enemies of all working people and all students. The policeman, the priest, the venture capitalist. Bad apples in a barrel made of steel, one and all.

Oh, dear, god. Is this the type of person who decides what to do with my money??!