Question about Paris...

bonkey

Can anyone fill me in as to what apparently sparked the latest (still-escalating) outbreaks in Paris?

jc

lazydaisy

Many, including the BBC point to discrimination leading to this, both economic and social [ie the head scarf ban, etc etc]. The media representation is that there is strong segregation and ghettoisation of these communities - that they are marginalised geographically, economically and socially. That collective anger is going to erupt sometime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm

Zombrex

bonkey wrote:

Can anyone fill me in as to what apparently sparked the latest (still-escalating) outbreaks in Paris?

jc

Paris the girl - Herpes I would say ...

Paris the city - Two african kids were killed, possibly during a police chase.

BBC wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4401670.stm]
...triggered by the deaths last week of two teenagers of African origin.

Bouna Traore, aged 15 and Zyed Benna, 17, were electrocuted at an electricity sub-station. Local people say they were fleeing police during a disturbance, a claim the authorities deny.

I must admit to being a complete Francophile. Love the place, the people, could go back there again and again and never tire of it, think Paris is the greatest city on earth etc. etc. etc.

But the racism in France, particularly against North Africans is endemic, it's in your face, and it's really really disturbing. It's the flaw a mile wide that runs through my experience of the French. I have had French people bring me into their houses, treat me like a son, could not be nicer to me, even express concern about racism...but then think that their treatment of North Africans is not a form of racism at all, and explain it all away by referring to the Algerian Wars. I have had French friends say (in French, obviously!!) 'why did you do that' when I merely said 'hi' to a North African that lived in a village where I spent some time. In that particular village there was one block of flats and all the North Africans lived there, and noone conversed with them - and this was in rural Burgundy far from any sprawling ghettoes. I knew of one French person who would mix freely with them, and who regarded them as his colleagues.

lazydaisy

Conor 74,

Be careful. Eye witness accounts don't stand for much around here unless you back up what your saying with a link from the Irish Times. Its just hearsay, or gossip, or to be taken with a grain or bucket of salt unless an approved of media hound from Donnybrook or Fleet Street can verify it.

I'll believe you though. I value first hand experience. Thank you for telling us that.

lazydaisy

lazydaisy wrote:

Conor 74,

Be careful. Eye witness accounts don't stand for much around here unless you back up what your saying with a link from the Irish Times. Its just hearsay, or gossip, or to be taken with a grain or bucket of salt unless an approved of media hound from Donnybrook or Fleet Street can verify it.

I'll believe you though. I value first hand experience. Thank you for telling us that.

LD please dont bring differences from other threads into separate and unrelated ones.
I'm talking about the above not so subltle reference to your dispute with Hobbes in the chavez thread regarding sources.

Beer is Life

It was probably their own fault. The BBC link doesnt work so i dont know what the latest is, but I heard the cops say the kids taught they were the ones being chased when infact the cops were chasing a totally different group. But all cops are lying scum and Africans never smash the place up and riot for little to no reason.

Captain Trips

lazydaisy wrote:

Many, including the BBC point to discrimination leading to this, both economic and social [ie the head scarf ban, etc etc]. The media representation is that there is strong segregation and ghettoisation of these communities - that they are marginalised geographically, economically and socially. That collective anger is going to erupt sometime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm

Or - the immigrants have made little effort to adapt to French values and lifestyle, preferring instead to segregate themselves in isolated communities where the maintain values incompatible with French culture and history.

The headscarf ban was an opportunity for them to show how they can adapt - much like european women do by covering arms and legs when in muslim countries and entering mosques. The reverse, unfortunately, shows that these immigrants refuse or are unwilling to adapt.

Ajnag

Or - the immigrants have made little effort to adapt to French values and lifestyle, preferring instead to segregate themselves in isolated communities where the maintain values incompatible with French culture and history.

Hard to integrate when your segregated. This has been going on a long time, In the 60's something like 67 algerians were killed in one night by police(can never for the life of me figure why french bashing americans dont latch on the fact).

This article was posted at another board i hang at, Despite the title its a very thorough write up of what the citíes are and the underlying problems of the french approach's up until now.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

I just hope that we in Ireland pay heed to the lesson's learnt in europe. To date it looks like we're just going to press on with the pc facade

Nuttzz

lazydaisy wrote:

Conor 74,

Be careful. Eye witness accounts don't stand for much around here unless you back up what your saying with a link from the Irish Times. Its just hearsay, or gossip, or to be taken with a grain or bucket of salt unless an approved of media hound from Donnybrook or Fleet Street can verify it.

I'll believe you though. I value first hand experience. Thank you for telling us that.

lol, so very true

Sponge Bob

Nobody has ever seen the movie La Haine made in 1995 have they ?

EVERY sizeable French City has a number of Ballymun type complexes on the outskirts or further out even and that the North Africans (mainly) are cooped up in these high rise barracks .

Now a number of these Ballymuns have exploded in tandem .

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

Nobody has ever seen the movie La Haine made in 1995 have they ?

I have. But after admitting I was a Francophile, I thought going that step further and admitting to liking French cinema was a bit too pretentious, even for moi...;)

Good film though, if a bit grim.

Speaking of prententious cinema, would 'Forget Paris' be apt?

lazydaisy

Ajnag wrote:

Hard to integrate when your segregated. This has been going on a long time, In the 60's something like 67 algerians were killed in one night by police(can never for the life of me figure why french bashing americans dont latch on the fact).

This article was posted at another board i hang at, Despite the title its a very thorough write up of what the citíes are and the underlying problems of the french approach's up until now.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

I just hope that we in Ireland pay heed to the lesson's learnt in europe. To date it looks like we're just going to press on with the pc facade

French and non French bashing Americans across the political spectrum are well copped onto how poor integration is in France, especially the ones who read Le Monde and or the ones who have studied and spent time in France. The American press is much fairer to Europe than the other way around so that's why you don't hear about it. French society will implode eventually if they dont do a better job at integration.

DadaKopf

Wow, I know people who live in France, too! SNAP! And... I've been to France. And I've seen French movies. I was watching this film once, with a French person, called 'When the Cat's Away', and, like... they totally ripped on this Moroccan character, like he was stupid. And yer wan, the French one said, like, that, like, French people make fun of the Arabs. And the blacks.

Now, I'd believe it, 'cos I've been there and stuff? But not to the banlieus and HLMs., so I wouldn't claim to know a WHOLE LOT about the fabric of French society, but from some books I've read? There's loads of stuff in 'em about how, like, France was a colonial power and stuff and now they're suffering from post-colonialism and, like, how the French national identity is assimilationist rather than pluralist as such, and stuff? And, like... yeah, I know people there and there's books about it and all.

These riots are excellent!

Boredom is counterrevolutionary.

lazydaisy

Good. Sounds like you'd fit right in.

Sponge Bob

Good 2002 Article on the background to these French Ballymuns

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

the only strange thing to me is how long it actually took before the large scale riots broke out .

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

Paris the city - Two african kids were killed, possibly during a police chase.

I think there was more then that before then. Before going on holiday I saw the news report that one side (muslim/asian, forget which) claimed that girls were gang raped by the other side. Yet there had been no reports of such an incident happening and the people claiming never went to the police. May of been a tinderbox to begin with and the issue is ongoing.

Came back through Paris btw and I don't know if this is the norm or not but Airport security were pulling large numbers of people off various planes, myself and family included to "check validty of passports".

Was standing in security office for about 30 minutes, they just came back no questions or explanations and give us our passports and said we were good to go. Men, women and children all being held there. No idea why but might be relatated.

If I was to take a guess it was for tourism reasons as they held us just long enough to miss our flight and two of us had to spend the night in paris b+b.

dathi1

Or - the immigrants have made little effort to adapt to French values and lifestyle, preferring instead to segregate themselves in isolated communities where the maintain values incompatible with French culture and history.

Bang on!

Nuttzz

Hobbes wrote:

I think there was more then that before then. Before going on holiday I saw the news report that one side (muslim/asian, forget which) claimed that girls were gang raped by the other side. Yet there had been no reports of such an incident happening and the people claiming never went to the police. May of been a tinderbox to begin with and the issue is ongoing.

Was that not Birmingham? There was a small riot there a few weeks ago, similar story?

mike65

That was Birmingham.

Anyone else stunned at the lack of speed in the reaction from the authorities?

What should have been 2 or 3 nights of localised mayhem is now threatening to become a nationwide rampage based on what? Some Muslims feeling pissed off in some Paris suburbs?

Still no troops, no curfew no nothing except a Gallic shrug or is it sheer shock?. One suspects if the violence had been visited upon the posh parts of Paris things may have panned out somewhat differently, instead they thought it would burn itself out without disturbing the Opera loving clases.

Mike.

Karl Hungus

Ajnag wrote:

I just hope that we in Ireland pay heed to the lesson's learnt in europe. To date it looks like we're just going to press on with the pc facade

Lesson's learnt? Somehow I don't think Ireland is paying attention in class.

We need to seriously ask ourselves "What's to stop this happening here?"

bonkey

lazydaisy wrote:

French and non French bashing Americans across the political spectrum are well copped onto how poor integration is in France, especially the ones who read Le Monde and or the ones who have studied and spent time in France.

I dunno. My impression is most people bashing America bash the government.

When it comes to the French, they bash the people every bit as much.

The American press is much fairer to Europe than the other way around so that's why you don't hear about it.

Actually, I'd imagine the reason you don't hear about it is the same reason we don't go to the American papers for Irish news.

French society will implode eventually if they dont do a better job at integration.

No disagreement from me on that one.

fly_agaric

lazydaisy wrote:

The American press is much fairer to Europe

You are joking, right?

The "axis of weasels".:)
The lazy, feckless, Godless, socialist, appeasing, weak Europeans with all their goddamned holidays off work? etc

bonkey

And lets not forget the avid reporting about the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys.

fly_agaric

bonkey wrote:

And lets not forget the avid reporting about the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys.

True. "The Simpsons" itself is probably just as influential as the press. Maybe more influential.:)

lazydaisy

fly_agaric wrote:

You are joking, right?

The "axis of weasels".:)
The lazy, feckless, Godless, socialist, appeasing, weak Europeans with all their goddamned holidays off work? etc

No I'm not joking. But you havent told me what American press you consult? Where do you find these statements?

Bonkey,

I guess I was opaque. By French-bashing Americans, I mean Americans who bash the French and the French government. And not people who bash the American government.

I read what Anjag said as being relevant to American news in that he was talking about their recognition of racial segregation in France as a way to retaliate for all the racial accusations the French press throw at them. But as they are fair, they dont do that. These are global issues and not relevant to one nation as race and religion is an international dialogue, where as Irish news is often only relevant to itself. Even so, you might still go to other papers to see how the rest of the world perceives Ireland or contains information the Irish press wont carry. Still the reason that you dont hear about the US consciousness of French racial segregation, is because the US press doesnt make an issue out of it.

fly_agaric

lazydaisy wrote:

No I'm not joking. But you havent told me what American press you consult? Where do you find these statements?

I'm dragging things offtopic so I'll stop after this.
I believe the "Axis of Weasels" thing was a NY Post headline when France was opposing the US at the UN before the Iraq war - Chiraq as weasel-in-chief I suppose.
As for the rest - I think those statements represent a general tone in US media whenever continental Europe or the EU is discussed. A set of stereotypes that get dragged up again and again. I'm generalising here though so I am on shaky ground. Remember your thread about anti-americanism a while ago where someone (I don't remember who) posted a techcentralstation article as an example of this?

the_syco

Ajnag wrote:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

mike65 wrote:

Anyone else stunned at the lack of speed in the reaction from the authorities?

Read the linked article, and you'll suddenly reliase that the French cops wouldn't have thought this as anything other than normal, untill it started to spread.

mike65 wrote:

One suspects if the violence had been visited upon the posh parts of Paris things may have panned out somewhat differently, instead they thought it would burn itself out without disturbing the Opera loving clases.

If you read the article, you'll see that even when the "better off" get attacked, the attitude of the cops is very lax.

=-=

I say there is no cure. They got cheap labour, and once the jobs are gone, thay had to pay for them, and their offspring, to live on the (French) dole. I'd say a civil war will happen, and when it does, it'll be the "poor" people with their gold chains, and highly equipped gangs, against everyone else. And everywhere else will call the French barbarians for doing so (whilst trying to sort out their own immigrent problems).

Hobbes

Nuttzz wrote:

Was that not Birmingham? There was a small riot there a few weeks ago, similar story?

Yep your right, I'm wrong. I'll blame jet lag

the_syco

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/6671197?view=Eircomnet

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Jean-Louis Debré, speaker of the National Assembly and the mayor of Evreux, said the majority of his town wanted peace. "The 100 people who sowed this destruction are not part of our world," he added.

Their mindset, tbh.
[/FONT]

Neuro

Captain Trips wrote:

The headscarf ban was an opportunity for them to show how they can adapt...

I just thought of this the other day: does this law require Catholic nuns to remove their headdress?