Question about Paris...

bungeecork

bonkey wrote:

(...) fill me in as to what apparently sparked the latest (still-escalating) outbreaks in Paris?

Testosterone?

Sand

what do you mean? do you think that if they had the possibility to make riots in the 16th district of paris, they wouldn't?

Well you implied Le Pens supporters were the French version of redneck hicks from the back of beyond, and churchgoers to boot. But the rioting is in the city, and has been attributed to racism and discrimination. So unless Cleetus and co are making a point of visiting the cities to meet their quotas of racial abuse, or the rioters routinely visit their summer homes in the country side, the rioting populace must be meeting this racism in the godless cities. Which you implied dont vote for Le Pen?

lili

Sand wrote:

Well you implied Le Pens supporters were the French version of redneck hicks from the back of beyond, and churchgoers to boot. But the rioting is in the city, and has been attributed to racism and discrimination. So unless Cleetus and co are making a point of visiting the cities to meet their quotas of racial abuse, or the rioters routinely visit their summer homes in the country side, the rioting populace must be meeting this racism in the godless cities. Which you implied dont vote for Le Pen?

wait, i gonna ask calina to make a translation because i have absolutly nothing understood on what you said.

Drexl Spivey

"But the rioting is in the city, and has been attributed to racism and discrimination."

Some people who are racists against the French are making statments on racism and discimination, how ironic.

For those who think that the cause of all problems is discriminiation I tell them YOU go visit these places (suburbs), and you try to survive there. It is easy to speak about something you haven't been up against yourself.


You're either complying with the law or you're not.


Anti social behavior exist everywhere, not only in France. I believe it also exists in Ireland to a degree.

One of the main causes of the problems encountered is Parenting responsibility. What's a 12 years old boy doing out at midnight is not a problem of the state, or anything. It's the parents' fault.

Sand

Some people who are racists against the French are making statments on racism and discimination, how ironic.

French is a nationality, not a race so how can I be racist against them? Anyway I have found every French person apart from the ones who need *my* help to be ignorant and rude. If I ever meet a French person who is basically civil without asking me for something then Ill revise my opinion. Much as if I ever encounter a fire that doesnt burn me Ill revise my opinion on whether its a good idea to stick my hand in fires. If you dont like that....tough tbh.

One of the main causes of the problems encountered is Parenting responsibility. What's a 12 years old boy doing out at midnight is not a problem of the state, or anything. It's the parents' fault.

Theres another thread about political debate based on illusion - well it began that way, its now devolved somewhat into the prime example of Irelands eternal struggle against reality, the Irish language - so you might be interested in that if you feel that one of the main reasons for well over 2 weeks of intense rioting across French cities was 12 year old kids not being watched by their parents. Many of the 12 year olds parents were probably out there doing the rioting themselves, or at the very least agreed with the frustrations of the rioters - no jobs, and an emasculating system of grants and protectionism that pays them to accept permament underclass status to protect the jobs of Frances middle class/unionised workforce. I saw an interview with a 30 year old local man, who was supposedly there to calm down the situation - instead he endorsed the rioters and the rioting, his only criticism was that it shouldnt harm locals property but instead the middle class areas. And he was the moderate.

And my point was in response to Lilis repeated assertion that racists were right wingers as a rule, and that they were from the country and went to church. It doesnt make sense then that the rioters met discrimination from the right on, progressive urban dwelling lefties then.

lili

sand, have you ever lived or been in france?

Sand

Of course I did. Everyone has to visit France at some point in their lives, if only to discover that people actually can be that ignorant. I dont think the rioters were racially discriminated against, I think theyre simply being mistaken for tourists.

lili

Sand wrote:

Of course I did. Everyone has to visit France at some point in their lives, if only to discover that people actually can be that ignorant. I dont think the rioters were racially discriminated against, I think theyre simply being mistaken for tourists.

ok, i'm not interested to talk with you. you're anti-french and quite ignorant yourself.
apparently you know better than me about france. and better than me about the banlieues where i grew up.
bye.

Calina

Sand wrote:

French is a nationality, not a race so how can I be racist against them? Anyway I have found every French person apart from the ones who need *my* help to be ignorant and rude. If I ever meet a French person who is basically civil without asking me for something then Ill revise my opinion. Much as if I ever encounter a fire that doesnt burn me Ill revise my opinion on whether its a good idea to stick my hand in fires. If you dont like that....tough tbh.

Sand,

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps they are treating you as they find you? I have to say that my experience is that French people here and in France are generally no better or worse than most people, and frankly, they're a good deal better than many Irish people. Also, I have a number of French friends who lived here for a while and said they found Irish people very difficult to get to know, and very shallow as well.

Which at least is less obnoxious a comment than yours about the French.

By the way, in answer to your question regarding why the riots are in the cities: it's because that's where the abject poverty is and where the ghettos are.

w66w66

France demonstrates the danger in following an immigration policy that’s based upon ideology and not any practical social or economic necessity. For years the French economy has been stagnant, unemployment has been running at 10% and the economy has been producing no new jobs. Yet, year on year France has still followed with the policy of mass immigration purely out of ideology zeal, even when they knew there was no social or economic potential for these people.

ambro25

Sand wrote:

French is a nationality, not a race so how can I be racist against them?

How about "prejudiced"? Feel better?

Having moved to Ireland (the Republic) from the UK just over a year ago, "anyway I have found every Irish person apart from the ones who need *my* help to be ignorant and rude. If I ever meet an Irish person who is basically civil without asking me for something then Ill revise my opinion." <snip>

Sand wrote:

And my point was in response to Lilis repeated assertion that racists were right wingers as a rule, and that they were from the country and went to church. It doesnt make sense then that the rioters met discrimination from the right on, progressive urban dwelling lefties then.

Sand you are quite correct: not all racists are "right wingers as a rule, and that they were from the country and went to church". Witness Ireland's endemic problem with xenophobia directed at off-white, Muslim, Hindu and/or east-european (im)migrants :rolleyes:

Good-natured ad-libing aside, Sand - you have made some very prescient points about the economy of France and it's various, nefarious entrenchments, with which I wholeheartedly agree. But your contempt of French people as a nation, I find hard to reconcile with what looks like an otherwise fairly open and articulate mind - I thought the preserve of "tarring all with the same brush" was that of inarticulate imbeciles?

With regards to the riots themselves - well, they're over for now. Miners or Farmers on strike in France have regularly done much, much more material damage over successive years, than all recent rioters combined. Big deal...

So France's policy of integration is in question after the fact? Well, which other European country isn't? :rolleyes: If anything has been shown (somewhat) by these riots, it's that France's expressly secular model (in administration, schools and anything State-run/-related) works no better than the English free-for-all model: minorities still aggregate, whether by ethnic choice (UK) or through economical pressure (France).

I say "somewhat", as I'd contend that the jury is still out anyhow: were it not for the quagmirical and enduring economical situation (in the main the result of perennially-inept political governance), I daresay France could pose as a model of multiculturalism. But, today as back in the 1930s - erode away at the wealth, and all that is eventually left pushes to extremisms of one side or another.

In passing, Sand, I thought I'd mention that I am French, btw, so feel free to let your ire rip - though you'll be getting some back, rest assured

EDIT

w66w66 wrote:

France demonstrates the danger in following an immigration policy that’s based upon ideology and not any practical social or economic necessity. For years the French economy has been stagnant, unemployment has been running at 10% and the economy has been producing no new jobs. Yet, year on year France has still followed with the policy of mass immigration purely out of ideology zeal, even when they knew there was no social or economic potential for these people.

Funnily enough, most illegal immigrants (as in: requiring a VISA of some sort to-) entering the EU still flock to the UK, in priority to anywhere else - particularly France, for obtaining whose benefits you have to go through so much Red Tape that it looks like Santa's workshop on Christmas Eve.

You have to wonder: if France was so actively welcoming immigrants out of ideology (as opposed to necessity anywhere else in Europe - which you imply), why would they not stop there instead of chancing it across the Chu/a/nnel? France's immigration policy (much like most other European countries) has nothing to do with ideology or necessity anymore, but is an entirely-political animal these days, so commenting thereon in the context of this thread is (i) futile and (ii) off-topic

lili

i never said that the racists are right wingers as rule

as said that the front national is an extrem party of right. and known as such.

Tha Gopher

Karl Hungus wrote:

Now, we've got a Muslim population here in Ireland, but how often do we see any of them enjoying a night out at a pub for example. Yes, I know alcohol is forbidden, but many Irish non-drinkers can still go out and have a laugh, so why not the Muslims? Or how often do we see any of them coming out for a concert, or sporting event, or a show at the theater, or well, anything else we'd consider normal passtimes?

How many Chinese do you see on a night out? Its a guarantee that if you are in a 1500 capacity club there will be more chinese serving drinks than buying them.

Of all the Muslims I know that were either born here or largely grew up here, all have drank alcohol, most have smoked hash and a few have done other drugs, just like the Irish. Alot of Muslims I know wouldnt drink very regularly, theyd be more enclined to drink for a reason e.g birthday, leaving do etc. Of about 12 Muslims Id consider myself as knowing fairly well, 7-8 would be regular drinkers, the other three occasional, and about four or five of them regular stoners,k and about 3-4 of them into other drugs.

The problem in France was that they were all couped up together in the same areas. That isnt done as much here, although theres streets in parts of Dublin majority immigrant I cant really think of any muslim dominated area. Id say in my area theyre maybe 5% of the population (Id say the foreign pop here is somewhere around 25%). So they arent isolated from the Irish like the muslims in Paris or the North of England.

Beruthiel

Sand wrote:

Everyone has to visit France at some point in their lives, if only to discover that people actually can be that ignorant..

unbelievable comment.
At this stage, I have been to France about 18 times in the last 20 years.
I have covered all parts of the country, I have rarely found anything but polite manners and friendliness.
Perhaps it has something to do with your own attitude and how you behave towards them, a little manners goes a long way I find

ambro25

Tha Gopher wrote:

The problem in France was that they were all couped up together in the same areas. That isnt done as much here, although theres streets in parts of Dublin majority immigrant I cant really think of any muslim dominated area. Id say in my area theyre maybe 5% of the population (Id say the foreign pop here is somewhere around 25%). So they arent isolated from the Irish like the muslims in Paris or the North of England.

Can I (politely) draw your attention between how long France and the UK have attracted immigrants (through colonial past, to be sure) and how long Ireland has been attracting immigrants (last 10 years, in the main)?

Give it another 30 or 40 years, then take a look at the Big Smoke and try that one again...

Sand

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps they are treating you as they find you?

Possibly, but when you consider that I found the Dutch and the English to be friendly and civil that would weaken that particular argument.

Also, I have a number of French friends who lived here for a while and said they found Irish people very difficult to get to know, and very shallow as well.

I wouldnt disagree with Irish people being shallow tbh. Very difficult to know? Wouldnt disagree with that either - noone reveals themselves to anyone 100%.

Which at least is less obnoxious a comment than yours about the French.

Youre right, if I find the French to be obnoxious then Im obnoxious for saying "I find the French to be obnoxious".

I retain an open mind on the French. Like I said, show me a civil, friendly French person who doesnt want something from me and Im happy to revise my opinion.

How about "prejudiced"? Feel better?

Id prefer "have encountered them".

"anyway I have found every Irish person apart from the ones who need *my* help to be ignorant and rude. If I ever meet an Irish person who is basically civil without asking me for something then Ill revise my opinion." <snip>

Youre talking to someone who has found the Irish belief that theyre amazingly friendly above and beyond all other nationalities a little hard to believe. Hence youre novel technique of reverse psychology has less impact than you might hope for...

So France's policy of integration is in question after the fact? Well, which other European country isn't? If anything has been shown (somewhat) by these riots, it's that France's expressly secular model (in administration, schools and anything State-run/-related) works no better than the English free-for-all model: minorities still aggregate, whether by ethnic choice (UK) or through economical pressure (France).

Im not questioning Frances policy of integration. Indeed I feel it is a good policy to have *not* to create a bureacratic industry around discrimination that can tend to "create" discrimination to report. Should we record the number of blondes and brunettes in society to determine if male interveiwers really do prefer blondes when it comes to hiring women for jobs?

What Im questioning is the decision to pursue policies that discourage employment, especially low skilled, low waged employment. Make no mistake about it, most people coming out of **** areas wont be taking jobs as CEOs or whatever, but its a start. The alternative is to offer them no future and no incentive to improve themselves. If you come from the wrong address and you cant get a job because unemployment is 40% and the government gives you the same pocket money whether you got a degree or left school aged 12, why bother getting a degree?

In passing, Sand, I thought I'd mention that I am French, btw, so feel free to let your ire rip - though you'll be getting some back, rest assured

Thats the thing though, I found the French to be ignorant compared to what I would expect. Im actually helpful and friendly to all tourists/visitors including French people, one of whom I played charades with to try and determine what he was looking for because he didnt have the english and I didnt have the French.

i never said that the racists are right wingers as rule

Arent you not talking to me?

Perhaps it has something to do with your own attitude and how you behave towards them, a little manners goes a long way I find

See above, then think a little out of the box and imagine how my attitude might be affect by being on the wrong end of that "little manners goes a long way" spiel. I found them obnoxious. You found them to be amazingly friendly. Thats just brilliant, but seeing as youre just an avatar and a handle to me, my experience > your experience when it comes to forming my opinions.

lili

sand, when you quote a sentence of my own, i would like you quote the entire sentence. i don't write that long post, it shouldn't be that difficult.

so, you dislike the french and they are all to put in the same bag? may we call this statment as a generalization or not?
and if yes, do you think it's the mark of intelligence?

pickarooney

Sand wrote:

I found the Dutch to be friendly and civil

Well there's proof enough that you're clinically insane.

the_syco

Tha Gopher wrote:

The problem in France was that they were all couped up together in the same areas.

During the 60's/70's, the French needed lots of cheap labour, and where put in cheap housing. Once the jobs evaporated, the people stayed on. 30 years later, their sons and daughters are pretty bored, someone lit the tinder-box and the riots broke out.

ambro25

Sand wrote:

Hence youre novel technique of reverse psychology has less impact than you might hope for...

Not hoping for any impact, tbh. As I posted, it was a little bit of a good-natured jibe, nothing more.

Sand wrote:

Im not questioning Frances policy of integration. <snip>

This point was not directed for your attention, but for w66w66's - I should have made this more explicit, my bad.

Sand wrote:

What Im questioning is the decision to pursue policies that discourage employment, especially low skilled, low waged employment. Make no mistake about it, most people coming out of **** areas wont be taking jobs as CEOs or whatever, but its a start. The alternative is to offer them no future and no incentive to improve themselves. If you come from the wrong address and you cant get a job because unemployment is 40% and the government gives you the same pocket money whether you got a degree or left school aged 12, why bother getting a degree?

And in that we're pretty much agreed. Although I might have been in agreement with myself a long time (10+ years) before coming into agreement with yourself (2 or 3 days)

Sand wrote:

Thats the thing though, I found the French to be ignorant compared to what I would expect.

But that is totally subjective, and a conclusion you've emphasized throughout this and other threads (bordering on the pejorative) that can only have arisen from a personal consideration/experience, and therefore certainly not a justification to generalise merrily.

You find French people "ignorant" - your right to, and to voice same in this Forum.

The point which I believe is being made, or at least that I'm attempting to make now myself, is that it is other people's right to find you just as ignorant for this belief (it really is a case of "a pot calling the kettle black", tbh), at least insofar as you are apparently so ready to tarr all with the same brush without giving the benefit of the doubt to the rest.

From personal experience, I have never been accused of being "ignorant" (not that you'd care), but of all the European countries in which I have lived (and there's been a few), Ireland is certainly the one in which I have experienced the most extremes in terms of both perceived and open attitudes to foreigners: I have felt more comfortable in some situations than I ever would anywhere else that I have ever been, and in other situations which I would just as rather forget about, about as comfortable as a black person at a KKK rally

After that, discussing the political implications of riots for and on behalf of a population with which you have no empathy nor (seemingly) any understanding of, is rather pointless, wouldn't you agree?

Drexl Spivey

Sand wrote:

French is a nationality, not a race so how can I be racist against them?

Playing with the words ... So how do you call someone who hates a 'nationality' then?
It may not be racism but it is definitely hate.
To be that obsessed against a nation and its inhabitants there must be something wrong with you.

Anyway I have found every French person apart from the ones who need *my* help to be ignorant and rude.

How about the way you deal with them? Are you polite or are you imlying that they're "rude", "ignorant" and that you hate them?

If I ever meet a French person who is basically civil without asking me for something then Ill revise my opinion. Much as if I ever encounter a fire that doesnt burn me Ill revise my opinion on whether its a good idea to stick my hand in fires.

This statement shows that you already made up your mind and you have prejudice. How petty is that and what a paradox for someone with apparently such intellect.

If you dont like that....tough tbh.

I don't like that. I find it freaky to know that people like you are hanging out freely in the same world as I

so you might be interested in that if you feel that one of the main reasons for well over 2 weeks of intense rioting across French cities was 12 year old kids not being watched by their parents. Many of the 12 year olds parents were probably out there doing the rioting themselves, or at the very least agreed with the frustrations of the rioters - no jobs, and an emasculating system of grants and protectionism that pays them to accept permament underclass status to protect the jobs of Frances middle class/unionised workforce.

Unemploment and frustration justify setting a cop on fire and filming him or throwing a washing machine from the top of a building with the intention of killing a fireman?

Yes a lot of rioters are not yet 18.
The rioters don't bother going to school and when they'll hit 18 they won't look for a job because their parents don't encourage them to do so. As a matter of fact some parents never had a job in there lives, they just take in social walfare from the state you say they hate so much.

You prefer your explaination because it suits better your anti-french preaching.

As per the racism and discrimination well I've got friends with Friench nationality whose parents come from : Algeria, Lebanon, Vietnam among others. middle class and low class. They all love France and have a job in France.

Don't even bother answering the first part of this post I, also, made up my mind about you.