Trade Unions

bonkey

patzer117 wrote:

Why should I have to pay more for the exact same job to be done? For a business it is illogical.

Why should we have minimum wage? For a busines, it too is illogical.

Perhaps you should consider that its not just the business who should find something logical. Society - of which the majority are employees and not employers - should also find it logical.

Lack of any form of employment protection (i.e. Fire-at-will if someone is willing to work your job for less) simply turns things into a race to the bottom.

Sure, that might seem great on teh surface of things as a consumer....you get everything for less....but just ask yourself where you're gonna earn the money to pay for it. From your salary that will sink until no-one will do your job for less than you will?

The only answer given in this thread has been that one enters into a social contract for employment.

Its the only answer which exists.

I disagree with this interpretation but must then ask (if this is the case) is it ok to replace non-permanant employees?

It depends on the terms of their employment.

Or must the employee always have the rights?

If they didn't, you'd call them something other than rights.

Surely a business should do what is profit maximising?

Child labour? Slave labour? Execution of people who refuse to accede to company demands?

These things would all help increase profit too.

Are you suggesting that you should have been put to work at the age of 3, paid as little as was necessary to earn money from you, and should have been worked to death if it would increase profits in the long run?

Or is that part of the social contract one you don't have a problem with?

it's things like these that will force multi-national companies to go abroad -

Yeah. People keep telling us this. We have to work for less, or we won't get to work at all. Course...if the people in hte developed nations don't have work at all, and those in the developing nations are being paid a pittance....who's gonna buy those off-shored goods that are still ridiculously expensive cause all the savings go on profit?

Do you really think the multinationals are so stupid that they'll wipe out their markets in the name of maximising profits? If not, then ask yourself what this scare-mongering about offshoring is about.

jc

landser

oscarBravo wrote:

Unfair dismissal. Constructive dismissal is when feel you have been forced to quit.

you're right. i should've said "if she left"

godtabh

mountainyman wrote:

I think that they have been far to accomododating over the past decade. I don't really care about public sector workers but what we need in the private sector is a real union movement. One that's aggressive that confronts employers and strikes. The Celtic tiger is worthless unless the people benefit.

Also Kernsr have you ever had a job or are you a student? If an employer has the 'riht' to shift production overseas why should my tax money be wasted investigating his murder? Rights incur obligations (for humans anyway squids [1] have neither rights or obligations)

[1]meant as the specific plural rather that the general plural

I am an engineer working for a Dublin based engineering firm.

As for other post saying that the private sector needs a strong union I think this is absolute nonsense. Any company working in the private sector survives on the profitability of the company. If a company is doing well its employees usually do well out of it. If the company doesn’t do well cut backs are made in order to turn the company around. Private sector employees generally accept this. When was the last time you saw a private company go on strike over pay?

If this was the attitude through out the whole work force maybe things would be better. But I think trade unions are too militant and as a result give their members an over valued feeling of self importance which is not sustainable in today’s modern and cut throat society.

ArphaRima

I love the fact that "modern" society is associated with employers having low morals and generally poorer working conditions for staff.
The union movements usefulness will become quite apparent when the same companies in the private sector begin to suffer during a downturn. Your groceries wont cost any less or your time off seem any less important as your employer reduces your salary and makes you work harder for it.

If you want to see where it leads talk to some americans. I know people who spent 35 years in a (still) profitable company. Then Chapter 11 (bankruptcy protection) was declared. If you are a CEO in america and you ARENT under chapter 11 protection you are an idiot. His pension was wiped out. His salary was cut by 65 percent. LEGALLY. No recourse.
Protect what previous generations fought for. Freedom of association.

Calina

kearnsr wrote:

If a company is doing well its employees usually do well out of it.

Irish Ferries made 40m euro in profit last year. I'm trying to equate their current actions as a description of "employees doing well". I'd like to say the key word is "usually" but actually, companies pay people as little as they can possibly get away with, no matter how profitable they are.

RainyDay

kearnsr wrote:

But I think trade unions are too militant and as a result give their members an over valued feeling of self importance which is not sustainable in today’s modern and cut throat society.

Maybe the unions will make today's society just a little less cut throat?

patzer117

RainyDay wrote:

'happy' is an interesting choice of words. What makes you think the departing employees are 'happy'? If I put a gun to your head and let you choose between my shooting of your elbows or your knees, will you be 'happy' twhen I shoot your elbow? Just because employees opted for the severence package does not mean they were 'happy'. Trade unions (generally) act at the request of members, so it's a fair bet that the employees were 'happy' for the union to act & intervene in the negotiations.

Thanks for pointing that out - you see it wasn't the Irish Ferries workers' union who intervened - they were all happy as i've said above. the other unions intervened complaining that this practise was illegal and that they didn't want to see it happen - nothing to do with people being unhappy. Just general unions (itgwu i believe) intervening when it's none of their business as i've said above...

bonkey wrote:

Why should we have minimum wage? For a busines, it too is illogical.

I'm above the opinion that there shouldn't be in a free market - or if there is then it should be much lower. But that's a different arguement for a different day.
I don't think the lack of it would reduce work into a race for the bottom, rather the companies would employ the people relatively most efficient and who have the best productivity for the price.


If the social contract arguement is the only arguement which exists bonkey then why are the unions above interfering? No social contract was breeched with the employees and the company did nothing illegal? surely as long as it's ok with the 'social contract' then you don't have a problem - unless there is some other arguement that you don't think exists. Or do you support Irish Ferries in this case?


And yes bonkey i am suggesting we employ child slaves and work them to death
:rolleyes: i think you're missing the point

godtabh

Every business makes a business plan. A €40m profit one year doesn’t equate into any profit the following year. What good is €40m in year one if your losing €60m a year for the next 10 years?

Irish Ferries have said in order to keep their business sustainable these measures have to be taken. I don’t agree with what they are doing but I also don’t agree with the unions getting them self’s into such a situation. Irish Ferries have offered employees new contracts. The unions won’t except these and are pushing their own agenda.

The employee’s current earnings aren’t sustainable. Irish Ferries recognise this and are trying to reduce costs in order to keep the company afloat.

What would you rather have? No job or a job that may not pay what you want?

godtabh

Calina wrote:

Irish Ferries made 40m euro in profit last year. I'm trying to equate their current actions as a description of "employees doing well". I'd like to say the key word is "usually" but actually, companies pay people as little as they can possibly get away with, no matter how profitable they are.

I'd like to see where you got this information cause I did a quick search and cant find it.

godtabh

fluffer wrote:

I love the fact that "modern" society is associated with employers having low morals and generally poorer working conditions for staff.
The union movements usefulness will become quite apparent when the same companies in the private sector begin to suffer during a downturn. Your groceries wont cost any less or your time off seem any less important as your employer reduces your salary and makes you work harder for it.

If you want to see where it leads talk to some americans. I know people who spent 35 years in a (still) profitable company. Then Chapter 11 (bankruptcy protection) was declared. If you are a CEO in america and you ARENT under chapter 11 protection you are an idiot. His pension was wiped out. His salary was cut by 65 percent. LEGALLY. No recourse.
Protect what previous generations fought for. Freedom of association.

My class in college was approx 200 people and I've yet to hear any one complain about their employees. They do a fair days work for a fair days pay. If yet to hear any friends or friends of friends who have been treated badly by their employers. With a vastly more educated society and with the law on the employee’s side tyrannical employers are the exception to the rule these days


America isn’t Ireland and you can’t compare them both. I worked for an American engineering firm in White Plains, NY. They work you hard but pay you well just what I'd expect from any employer.

RainyDay

patzer117 wrote:

Thanks for pointing that out - you see it wasn't the Irish Ferries workers' union who intervened - they were all happy as i've said above. the other unions intervened complaining that this practise was illegal and that they didn't want to see it happen - nothing to do with people being unhappy. Just general unions (itgwu i believe) intervening when it's none of their business as i've said above...

The ITGWU hasn't existed for about 15 years now. Please be specific - which union's intervention are you complaining about?

ArphaRima

America isn’t Ireland and you can’t compare them both. I worked for an American engineering firm in White Plains, NY. They work you hard but pay you well just what I'd expect from any employer.

I would like to see how you can call a 65 percent pay cut and a decimated pension fair.
I would call it wrong. Wrong. Morality. It is wrong to destroy someones life for the companies continued profitability. Especially when the ones spearheading these initiatives give themselves pay rises.

I am young now and look forward to a future where I would like to have security. Its not reasonable to ask a 55 year old to relocate his life every time his employer finds his wage uncompetitive. Business does not reward the asshole with success. It rewards the lucky, the brave and the smart.

And i will compare America and Ireland because it IS relevant. It is the future we can expect if we listen to the people who say we need a more modern workplace. Modern in the way I explained I disliked previously. Ireland can be competitive in ways Asia and Africa cant hope to be. High quality goods sell to a high earning market. Thats where the good profit margins are. Diversifying into more advanced markets. We cant hope to beat them with wages or conditions. But we can make/sell better products and services that fetch more.
Ireland has moved from a nation of subsistence farmers and fishermen to world leading service driven economy within just a few decades. Asia will eventually do the same. We just need to do it better. And critically; first.

godtabh

fluffer wrote:

I would like to see how you can call a 65 percent pay cut and a decimated pension fair.
I would call it wrong. Wrong. Morality. It is wrong to destroy someones life for the companies continued profitability. Especially when the ones spearheading these initiatives give themselves pay rises.

I am young now and look forward to a future where I would like to have security. Its not reasonable to ask a 55 year old to relocate his life every time his employer finds his wage uncompetitive. Business does not reward the asshole with success. It rewards the lucky, the brave and the smart.

And i will compare America and Ireland because it IS relevant. It is the future we can expect if we listen to the people who say we need a more modern workplace. Modern in the way I explained I disliked previously. Ireland can be competitive in ways Asia and Africa cant hope to be. High quality goods sell to a high earning market. Thats where the good profit margins are. Diversifying into more advanced markets. We cant hope to beat them with wages or conditions. But we can make/sell better products and services that fetch more.
Ireland has moved from a nation of subsistence farmers and fishermen to world leading service driven economy within just a few decades. Asia will eventually do the same. We just need to do it better. And critically; first.

I never said it was relevant. I said they weren’t the same. Your not comparing like with like. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

Each country has different worth ethics, laws and general rules of conduct.

I do think it’s wrong that man lost his pension but as I know very little about pensions I'm not gona get in to that. I do have a pension.


A modern society doesn’t have to be based on America. Why is it that if we want to compare our society to others it always has to be America. Why not Australia or Holland? I know from personal experience the Dutch people would put us to same when it comes to work and how there run their business

patzer117

RainyDay wrote:

The ITGWU hasn't existed for about 15 years now. Please be specific - which union's intervention are you complaining about?

SIPTU my friend i think, i'm complaining about siptu