Aston Villa v Liverpool (including scoreline) 12:45

redspider

So, a test for Liverpool, every match after a CL game is a test, and an away match, so this one wont be easy. The only saving grace is that Villa are weak this season so far, but if Baros returns as is expected, they will be fired up, and O'Leary knows that pressing Liverpool in such a game is one way for his side to get points.

Benitez perhaps now, with the lack of threat coming from Crouch and Morientes, realises that Baros is(was?) a good player.

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Rafael Benitez has warned his players to beware a fired-up Milan Baros at Villa Park tomorrow. Baros is set to recover from injury in time to face the Reds for the first time since leaving Anfield for Villa in the summer. "I think Baros will get a good reception from the Liverpool supporters. It's a pity we had to sell him, but we know he's a good player who can score goals," said Benitez. "I'm not sure if he'll be fit for the game, but when he is he will be a good player for Aston Villa, we know that. But now we are thinking about our own team and how well we can play.
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The key to the game will be Benitez's selection and formation. It looks like Benitez has "seen the light" after the CL match and now realises that his 4-2-3-1 formation that he tried to enforce this season isnt working as well as the 4-4-2. Has he been reading boards.ie?

See his comments on:
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N150465051103-1044.htm

It would be good to see if he can stick with the 4-4-2 in this match against Villa. Compared to the starting 11 of the CL match against Anderlecht, I would put in Cisse instead of Crouch, although picking the front two is not for the squeamish as all options and variations have deficiencies.

I also dont rate Sissoko (he is ok, but no more than that), and think that Hamann could do a job in there instead, perhaps. Gerrard would be better in the centre of midfield if only there was someone to play out right.

But a team based on:

---

Reina/Dudek ----
Finnan - Carra - CB - Riise
Gerrard - Alonso - CM - Garcia
---- F --- F ----

is the best we can hope for this season, Cisse could play a role up front if we get in another striker in the same class that Owen was (is?), a central rght midfielder and put Gerrard back in the centre.

Stekelly wrote:

I can't see any case for not playing Hamann. He is a far better player than Sissoko (imo far better than sissoko will ever be) and is in his last couple of years. Theres nothing to be gained by paying him to sit on the bench when he could be doing a job. Then after this season and /or next when Hamann goes, sissoko can be his replacement. I'd be more inclined to go with:

---

Reina/Dudek ----
Finnan - Carra - CB - Warnock
Garcia - Alonso - Gerrard - Riise
---- F --- F ----

Yes, thats also ok for me too as Warnock has shown that he is capable at LB. The only danger with that formation is that Gerrard is always likely to drift forward and this leaves Alonso on his own in the centre of the park. With Sissoko or Hamann in midfield, this doesnt happen. Perhaps Riise could learn to come back to be the 2nd cover midfield player when needed, or perhaps not.

redspider

Guy:Incognito

redspider wrote:

Yes, thats also ok for me too as Warnock has shown that he is capable at LB. The only danger with that formation is that Gerrard is always likely to drift forward and this leaves Alonso on his own in the centre of the park. With Sissoko or Hamann in midfield, this doesnt happen. Perhaps Riise could learn to come back to be the 2nd cover midfield player when needed, or perhaps not.

redspider

The other option is to drop Garcia and leave Gerrard on the right with Hamann in the middle. Garcia is playing well but going on his form since joining the club, he is due due a bad game or two.

mike65

Rafa has said he's not going to tinker with the team selection unless he spots something in training so I expect basicly the same line-up and formation as the last two games.

He's bound to start Crouch hoping for the "ex player returns to haunt old club" phenomena! Maybe he and Baros will cancel each other out.

Mike.

el rabitos

---

Reina----
Finnan - Carra - Hyppia - Riise
Gerrard - Alonso - Sissoko - Garcia
---- Cisse --- Morientes ----

that would be my formation for the day.

Presuming villa will be using using baros as their main threat for a goal, they'll have to push forward to supply him, i think liverpool having cisse will do more for counter strike than crouch.

i'll be really disapointed if we lose or even draw this one.

mada999

yeah think we can win this one...

I hope crouchy comes on and scores the winner!:D

Shred

el rabitos wrote:

---

Reina----
Finnan - Carra - Hyppia - Riise
Gerrard - Alonso - Sissoko - Garcia
---- Cisse --- Morientes ----

That's the starting formation alright, I'm delighted - Cisse for Crouch is the only change from Wednesday I would have liked to see. I'd be fairly confident of a Lverpool win and I'll go for 2-1

Ste-

mada999 wrote:

yeah think we can win this one...

I hope crouchy comes on and scores the winner!:D

I'd be happy for crouch to get any sort of goal.

mike65

Liverpool doing the most to open the scoring.

Mike.

Ste-

Is the match on telly ?

el rabitos

---

Reina----
Finnan - Carra - Hyppia - Riise
Gerrard - Alonso - Sissoko - Garcia
---- Cisse --- Morientes ----

didnt think i'd be right

suprising to see hamann miss out so often so far this season

Lemlin

Ste- wrote:

Is the match on telly ?

I'd say its on Sky with the lunchtime kick-off. Pay-per-view probably though.

zAbbo

Match is live on Prem Plus 437

If only Cisse could place the ball instead of just trying to hammer it

redspider

A good selection by Benitez in my opinion, thats probably the best team we have and the 4-4-2 formation that should prove most productive. Cisse has his chance to shine and Liverpool need 3 pts from this match if they are to challenge for 4th spot.

The first half just over, Liverpool had the better of the it. Cisse had the best chance in the half but failed to get away a good shot from within the penalty box and the keeper saved. Its a cagey affair though, both teams being relatively cautious and safe. A couple of yellow cards. Baros looking perhaps rusty after his lay-off and lacking any decent supply or Villa build-up to threaten.

If Cisse/Morientes fail to conjure up a goal, Crouch should get a run out for the last 15 mins at least, in place of Morientes who will be slowing up by then.

Liverpool need to up the ante for the 2nd half as a draw is two thirds of a loss and Villa are there for the taking. Gerrard needs to raise his game. Its games like this that determine Liverpool's league success and they need to be able to convert these games into easy wins. So far, its only so-so, and now more is expected. A lot will depend on whether Benitez can motivate them to perform. And, if Villa do score, how will Liverpool react. My current feeling is that if they do go behind in matches like these, they can easily go on to lose.

lets see what happens ....

redspider

mike65

Okay lets be honest here, Pool were pants with Cisse once again frustrating but a win is a win (and Crouchy made a difference when he came on).

Mike.

RE*AC*TOR

thought most people did well apart from morientes. good result. should have killed it off earlier though.

cruiserweight

Morientes looked disinterested for most of the game! Crouch looked good when he came on! Benetiz was very quick to change the 4-4-2 formation!

Töpher

Poor game tbh. Villa couldn't keep the ball on the floor, which was their main downfall as they kept giving the Pool back posession.

Guy:Incognito

Crouch and Cisse's finishing is terrible. After that free header crouch had yesterday, its now more evident than ever that the fact he hasnt scored is his own fault. As for Cisse blasting it at the keeper when clean through AGAIN, bloody awful.

Lemlin

Stekelly wrote:

Crouch and Cisse's finishing is terrible. After that free header crouch had yesterday, its now more evident than ever that the fact he hasnt scored is his own fault. As for Cisse blasting it at the keeper when clean through AGAIN, bloody awful.

Crouch did well to win the penalty, though winning it had alot to do with the ref's poor positioning. Even though IMO it wasn't a penalty Liverpool deserved the victory. Maybe its the bit of luck they've needed to get going.

redspider

Well, neither team turned on the style in this match and Liverpool took a 0-2 win with a whimper. Liverpool created most of the chances. For a while it looked like Villa may have been coming back into the match, with a few half openings, but that was a false dawn. Liverpool deserved to win this match, no doubt about it, but like all season, where were the goals likely to come from even with so much dominance.

The penalty was a soft one, and many like these are not given. It was a fair reflection on the game though, and it was a foul, but Crouch was complicit in the dragging and it was a 30/70 type of situation. Gerrard, who had a good game as per usual, slotted it home with aplomb. I had feared that Crouch would be nominated to take it to break his duck but luckily sense prevailed.

Crouch, to be fair to him, when he came on was a handful for the Villa defence, not that he was dangerous in front of goal, more awkward. He couldnt have got a better chance than that header from 7 yards which he pathetically headed straight at the keeper and with little power. For the 2nd goal he was again involved, but failing to do anything right in front of goal, and Alonso came forward and showed how to strike a ball on target. Crouch did ok at holding up the ball and laying it off, but we nee more than that from a striker.

Morientes was his usual self poor, and himself and Cisse didnt seem to be playing on the same wavelength at all. Cisse shows why he is weak, but Morientes is even more weak. Liverpool need at least one very good striker in the January window.

Alonso was his usual brilliant self. Sissoko just did a job, no more no less. Garcia wasnt so good, going back to his old self perhaps after two reasonable performances and went off injured early in the 2nd half. The defence were hardly troubled at all, although perhaps Finnan and Riise didnt get up into the box as much as they should have.

Overall, 3 good points for Liverpool, and deserved. So, 16 pts from 10 games, nothing to write home about but not a crisis. Liverpool should be able to go from here to challenge for 4th.

redspider

Guy:Incognito

redspider wrote:

Overall, 3 good points for Liverpool, and deserved. So, 16 pts from 10 games, nothing to write home about but not a crisis. Liverpool should be able to go from here to challenge for 4th.redspider

Thats just over 1.5 points per game, which is not going to be good enough long term.

mike65

In the last 2 games they are averaging 3 points a game! Damned stats.

I do think the corner has been turned, its going to be 4-4-2 (ish) with Gerrard on the right from now until the new year at least. I predict an average 2+ points per game from now on (28 games X 2 = 56 + 16 points = 72 total, that would count as progress).

The defence is looking very solid with 7 clean sheets in Prem so far (as many as all last season) with the midfield balanced. Yes the attack is still a concern but will become less of one as the league develops I think.

Mike.

redspider

Stekelly wrote:

Thats just over 1.5 points per game, which is not going to be good enough long term.

Well, 16 pts is a reasonable start and many a team has done that and gone on to finish in the top-4, with 64 or so pts. Football is far from an exact science, so get 16 pts this quarter and play the same the next and you can end up with 12-19 pts in the next quarter, etc, etc. The important thing for clubs like Liverpool is to avoid too many draws. Many people still claim that a draw is reasonable, and you hear in the media that such and such a team are unbeaten in 10 games, etc. That is pure BS and people need to think differently about draws. Just look what they have done for Zaragoza in Spain. Only lost 2 and 7 draws.

I dont have your confidence Mike in terms of Liverpool getting an average of 2 pts a game from here on. Liverpool are finding it very hard to score goals, a penalty and a shot through a bunch of players in the box on the w/e are not exactly great goals to score. And I feel that Liverpool will continue to struggle to score, unless Cisse suddenly goes to "the Liam Brady finesse" school or learns from Henry, or Crouch learns to head, or Morientes takes some drugs to speed him up or something. There is no indication that any of these players will improve, alas. Liverpool need one quality striker in the Jan window, and I think money wise, its time to bite the bullet and splash out 20m or so.

Find attached the ladder for this season, compared with last season and the points change for all the teams.

Liverpool fairing about the same as last season. Arsenal are the team in crises, but if they can keep Henry on the pitch and in scintilating form as he is now, they will catch up.

Another long season for Liverpool I'm afraid ....

redspider

p.pete

Nice little graph redspider - If there's one comparing the points Liverpool got for the same fixtures last season I'm sure we'd be well up (ie. Villa away 05/06 = 3pts; Villa away 04/05 = 1pt etc)

Ardent

I've been confident all season that the goals would come from our ailing strike force. But watching that game yesterday, I'm finally beginning to worry like a lot of other 'pool supporters.

Very frustrating game. Due in no small part to Cisse. If it still comes as a surprise to him when he's shipped out in January then the guy's an idiot. No manager at any level of football would tolerate the lack of effort and poor attitude he shows week in week out. As for his talent on the pitch, I'd rather have Heskey back and that's saying something. Houllier and Guy Roux really pulled a fast one on Liverpool. 14 million?!!

Morientes is beginning to worry me but I'll still give him till Christmas before branding him a flop. We all know he has the talent and hopefully he'll start to show it consistently with a run of more games under his belt. I sincerely hope it's not a case of his best years being well and truly behind him.

Crouch - to this day I still can't fathom why we spent 7 million on him. But I can see Rafa's thinking and the options Crouch brings to the team. Good performance after coming on late and caused Villa no end of problems. Anyone else concerned about his heading ability at this stage?!

I can see most of our goals being scored from midfield again this season.

Bacchus

Sorry if the formating isn't good.

Opposition 05/06 04/05

Middlesbrough (A) - Draw (CS) - Loss
Sunderland (H) - Win (CS) - N/A
Tottenham (A) - Draw (CS) - Draw
Man Utd (H) - Draw (CS) - Loss
Birmingham (A) - Draw - Loss
Chelsea (H) - Loss - Loss
Blackburn (H) - Win (CS) - Draw (CS)
Fulham (A) - Loss - Win
West Ham (H) - Win (CS) - N/A
Aston Villa (H) - Win (CS) - Win

Last Season (assuming same results for N/A): 14 points, 1 clean sheet
This Season: 16 points, 7 clean sheets

Verdict: Better squad overall but still not good enough really. Need a decent striker to give us the goal scoring edge and turn those 3 goalless draws into wins.

EDIT: Sorry bout the mix up cruiserweight. Got the scores from Liverpool site. For this season the scoreline was "Liverpool - Opposition", regardless of Home or Away. 04/05 had "Opposition - Liverpool" scorelines for away games which I didn't realise and therefore got the wins and losses mixed up. It's all fixed now though.

redspider

Ardent wrote:

I've been confident all season that the goals would come from our ailing strike force. But watching that game yesterday, I'm finally beginning to worry like a lot of other 'pool supporters. Very frustrating game.

Due in no small part to Cisse ....

Morientes is beginning to worry me but I'll still give him till Christmas before branding him a flop ....

Crouch - to this day I still can't fathom why we spent 7 million on him. But I can see Rafa's thinking and the options Crouch brings to the team ....

I can see most of our goals being scored from midfield again this season.

Yes, I think all Liverpool supporters need to be crucially aware of just how bad the situation up front is. And its not as if Bentez didnt see this coming. He signed Morientes, he signed Crouch, he sold Baros. He sold and didnt re-sign Owen. (I blame Liverpool executives for not having some clause in Owen's sale to Real Madrid that would have given Liverpool a real first shout, as in say an extra 5m and he's yours).

Cisse is an uncontrolled weapon. Faster than Heskey and perhaps with less skill. He can at times do better than Crouch or Morientes, so we will need to use him until Jan. I think he does try, its just that he doesnt have the footballing brain to play any different.

Morientes is not going to improve between now and Xmas. He has had his chance as far as I am concerned. He may get the odd goal, but he is not sharp enough and IS in the twilight of his career.

Crouch had one of his better performances, but thats it I think - we wont get any more out of Crouch than this during the season, an odd performance like this. He is not good enough.

My preference is for a complete clear out of all 3, but Liverpool and Benitez are unlikely to do that. I see Liverpool signing a player in the Jan window, perhaps selling Morientes in the summer as well as Cisse. But for Liverpool to get a good player, they will need to be in the CL at that stage, and getting a player that is not CL-tied will be difficult if not impossible. Fixing the problem may have to wait until next summer, which will make this season long and excruciating as Gerrard ends up being our top scorer barring injury.

redspider

cruiserweight

Bacchus wrote:

Sorry if the formating isn't good.

Opposition 05/06 04/05

Middlesbrough (A) - Draw (CS) - Win (CS)
Sunderland (H) - Win (CS) - N/A
Tottenham (A) - Draw (CS) - Draw
Man Utd (H) - Draw (CS) - Loss
Birmingham (A) - Draw - Win (CS)
Chelsea (H) - Loss - Loss
Blackburn (H) - Win (CS) - Draw (CS)
Fulham (A) - Loss - Loss
West Ham (H) - Win (CS) - N/A
Aston Villa (H) - Win (CS) - Win

Last Season (assuming same results for N/A): 17 points, 3 clean sheets
This Season: 16 points, 7 clean sheets

Verdict: Better squad overall but need a decent striker to give us the goal scoring edge, 3 goalless draws is not good.

Hang on a sec last year Liverpool lost to Middlesborough away,Birmingham away, beat Fulham away and we played Villa away home last weekend.

Ardent

redspider wrote:

And its not as if Bentez didnt see this coming. He signed Morientes, he signed Crouch, he sold Baros. He sold and didnt re-sign Owen.

That's harsh on Benitez. What was he supposed to do, let Owen do a Bosman in 6 months time?

I like Benitez's system - we are dominating teams. We may not have the best strike force in the world at the moment but if our forwards can help the team retain possession and the midfield to score, I don't mind them scoring few goals themselves this season.

Jivin Turkey

redspider wrote:

I dont have your confidence Mike in terms of Liverpool getting an average of 2 pts a game from here on. Liverpool are finding it very hard to score goals, a penalty and a shot through a bunch of players in the box on the w/e are not exactly great goals to score. And I feel that Liverpool will continue to struggle to score, unless Cisse suddenly goes to "the Liam Brady finesse" school or learns from Henry, or Crouch learns to head, or Morientes takes some drugs to speed him up or something. There is no indication that any of these players will improve, alas. Liverpool need one quality striker in the Jan window, and I think money wise, its time to bite the bullet and splash out 20m or so.

Liverpool don't need to score that many goals when their defence is keeping as many clean sheets. Seven in ten in the league and 13 in 21 in all competitions.

I also don't think the striker problems are as critical as you paint them to be anyway. The thought of spending something like £20M on a striker is a bit over the top IMO. Could be much better spent on another CB and RM.

Cisse for all his flaws has still got eight goals this season, despite starting only half the games, and also playing out of position at times. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think he is world class or anything but I'd wager large amounts of money that he is going to get 20 goals this year in all competitions. Not a bad return. If the right offer came in for Cisse I'd have no doubt he would be out the door, but there is no point on selling him for something like £7M at this stage.

Crouch again has started only about half the games, and despite no goals has caused problems and looked bright in a good few games. I don't think he will ever be the type to be hitting 20 a season but he does a job, Saturday being an example, and thats what he was bought to do, giving an additional option from the bench.

Now for Morientes, I think you are extremely harsh on this lad. He has missed six weeks of this year already through injury. He has done poorly yes, but to write a player of proven calibre off after 7 months of injury plauged football is ludicrous. He knows he still has a lot to prove, but I'm still confident he can come through for us. His return of 3 goals in 10 games is hardly shocking.

To summarise, yes there is plenty of improvement required, but the team will still continue to climb once the defence holds tight. Once the strikers begin to shine we will be winning games three and four nil. Definitely a team in crisis.