Still waiting around doing nothing

Boston

I want to say sorry for my first comments, if nobody disagreed with you. How would you know you were right

dobdobdo

"Objectives
IrelandOffline is a newly formed organization, dedicated to bringing about the next step in Internet access for Ireland. Our goal is to drive forward the development of the Irish Internet infrastructure for the consumer. In particular we want to achieve the following:


Universal flat rate (unmetered) access to the internet for all users.

Complete Local Loop Unbundling (LLU) by Eircom.

Universal access to broadband services for all users."

Someone once said "a week is a long time in politics" or was that football?
Now if MS is unhappy that he has had to wait 2-3 years for a FAIR Deal from Eircom,? Expressed his dismay here & got this reaction ........ well done !!
Personally I try not generalise, but there is a lot happening with regarding the "OBJECTIVES" that maybe all the know alls dont know??

Bard, you are the Moderator of IRELANDOFFLINE Forum? Yet your 1st imput to this thread is

An unconstructive post from an unhelpful poster ("MS").

I agree with «Bo§ton» and SkepticOne.

Frankly, MS, from what I've seen of your attitude, we're better off with you pissing off now...

Cheers,

... and then your next posts are all expressed similiarly ... why?

angryuser

I have to admit to being fairly appalled at what is going on here. Not only by so called 'unconstructive comment' by by some of the responses from the 'committe' and from bard' too. If members of the committee you use such language and such sick comments, what do they expect from ordinary members and contributors ?? I am surprised and a little upset that Adam and Bard got so easily pulled in by a few 'wayward' comments. ? The best answer to this kind of thing, especially from committee members is "no answer at all' ?? But some of the language and comments made by Adam are way over the top. ? I have made a few constructive posts (hopefully) and am busy lobbying my local minister who in turn is lobbying others, BUT, I am having 2nd thoughts. If he visits this site, and certainly this topic, he will no doubt get the impression we are nothing but a load of loud mouth idiots ?? And its not 'all' from members or contributors either. Unless anyone wants to persuade me otherwise, I don't think I will return to the forum until things calm down, and some sense (and decent manners, and decent wording) is installed into everything. If that brings forth some criticism, or sarcastic comments, then so be it.
I will not respond. It appears to me that 'posts' have deteriorated somewhat since Adam joined the committee, and the feeling he gives me is unfortunately not a favourable one. I think he would do well to post far less, and make far less 'nasty' comments about others, if he wants to retain some kind of dignity, and respect as a committee member.????

Rags

I agree with the last few posts, there seams to be a lot of people on edge and some of the moderators dont seam to be helping. Can ye guys like calm down ?

Remember the saying if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all.


James

dahamsta

Remember the saying if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all.

The same could be said for the newbies in here the last week or so James.

Angryuser, I don't mean to be offensive to people, but I get the red mist when I see posts like MS's. It drives me insane[1] to see people knocking the efforts of others, particularly when those people are doing it in their own time, at their own expense[2].

Criticism I can handle, but only if it's constructive. MS's comments weren't constructive - if anything they were the complete opposite - but it appears that he recognises that now, and that's cool. Maybe my way of handling it is wrong, but sometimes I just don't feel like bottling it up - what MS said, or at least the way he said it, was wrong.

I don't think silence is the answer to that. If anything, silence has worked to the detriment of IrelandOffline in recent weeks - it was unavoidable - and I think MS's post amply demonstrates that silence breeds discontent and confusion. Maybe my attitude of attack is wrong, but something has to be said.

All that being said, I'll try to keep my temper under control, or at least I'll leave posting a while while the red mist clears, in the hope that someone else will jump in to clear things up. It's not as if I haven't got more important stuff to be doing...

So, to MS and everybody else, I apologise if I caused offense. But please, /think/ before you post. I'll try and do the same...

adam

[1] And that's on top of the insanity brought about by Eircom's daily doings and everyone else's - I mean the meeja, the OLO's and the government of course - ignorance and disinterest in the issues at hand.

[2] Some might my stress on this as self-serving, or even vain, but I'm wasn't talking about myself in my previous posts. I'm only a newcomer to the committee, and I haven't even come close to the efforts the others put in. Hell, I enjoy ranting about Eircom here, it's the only place people will listen to me.

murcielago

About Eircom as a supplier to its subsidiary eircom.net and the latter's competititor ISPs I wish to contribute this observation.
The relationship is governed by EU competition law. The holding company must deal at arms length with its subsidiary and cannot egage in either direct or indirect subsidisation. The Irish case that I can best recall was that of Aer Lingus and its tour operator subsidiary Aer Lingus Holidays. At that time Aer Lingus enjoyed a dominant position as a supplier to tour operators such as Joe Walsh. The tour operators were always complaining about ALT giving unfair advantages to ALTH. Needless to say ALT denied the allegations and survived various investigations. However the secret came out eventually and not from any complaint by the tour operators. It was to do with fraud. As I recall ALT ran up bad debts with ALTH as a device to give under the counter funds to its subsidiary.
For some years I was required to lecture on certain aspects of European competition law. Although I am out of touch I continue to recognise some obvious errors in this area of law in posts to Ireland Offline. The overall effect is to diminish the credibility of Ireland Offline. Please get some competent person to brief the committee on technical legal matters.

Supercell

I first found the boards through ie.comp, and the debate about setting up IOFFL.
A large proportion of my posts were made here, for the most i was letting off steam, and it did feel good to see that other people were equally as frustrated as myself.
Here was a place i could post my views to an audience that listened. In retrospect, a lot of it was just sheer frustration, with little real content, but it was a means of getting it off my chest.

But now i rarely if ever visit this board..not because i am frustrated still with the sluggish progress made to get internet access here on a par with the rest of the word (virtually) but because of the incessant bickering, fuelled by our mods imho.

In the main it appears to be the two mods acting line "cool newbies" themselves(see later link) taking personal insult to everyone that disaggrees with them. Guys..we all were all "mad as hell" to quote someone from ie.comp...and yes it is tiring to see the same rants over and over, but you are mods...

This is your board, what kind of impression do the "players" in this game get when they visit this forum (as no doubt they do) when they see the authority figures posting stuff like whiney-ass complaints like MS's-dahamsta..or a direct reference to the IOFFL board here
or
Frankly, MS, from what I've seen of your attitude, we're better off with you pissing off now. - Bard

Maybe i can sympathise with the sentiments, but don't you guys feel that email would be a better option than dragging this into the public eye, where everyone (like me here) is going to feel the need to reply and the players will just think they are just a bunch of unorganised bickering nerds?

In closure mods, please start acting like mods, public insults of posters serve no good to anyone, especially everyone who is 100% behind what this is supposed to be about.

angryuser

Personally I think we have got to the stage where we have to go one step further. A poll of members. ? It is obvious from this thread, and from may others I have read, that we have a moderator and a committe member in Adam, who is too fond of going completely overboard ? Abusive language, and over the top and personal comments about contributors is unacceptable. It brings the committe into disrepute, and as such there is only one answer. A poll to ask members if he should resign, or stay on ?
We cannot have a moderator, of all people who uses abusive language to others.
Bard, please post a poll on this matter.
A. Adam should stay on in his present role ?
B. Adam should be asked to resign, due to his unnacceptable conduct as a committee member and moderator. ?

I presume only you have the power the set up a poll ?? so I for one would be grateful if you would.

dahamsta

Longfield, I appreciate your reasons for leaving, however I think it's important to point out that I've been a mod for a week. Sure, I've been a mod and an admin for years, but that's at my own behest, and usually from the outset. And I've been accused of being pretty hard-nosed, but that's because I state my opinion and I don't take any... uh... crud.

Flipping from angry user - pardon the pun - to committee member and moderator is not like flicking a switch. It takes time to change attitudes and start thinking politically. And in my own case, it often takes supreme effort to avoid insulting people who to my (possibly oversensitive) eye, seem to go out of their way to find new and interesting ways to get insulted.

Whatever about being a mod though, I've never been on a committee before, and I've never had to think politically before. I'll be the first to admit that for the most part this is "play" politics, but it's politics nonetheless, as the righteous indignation already propounded here has proved. This is a learning experience for me, and I was hoping that people would try to bear with me while I teach myself. Maybe I was being naive in that assumption.

Angryuser, rearrange the following letters into a well-known acronym:

A F L O R M O

I may have overextended my anger, and if you're offended, well, I can't say I understand it, but I have already apologised and I won't do it again. However my standing on MS's comments stay. His comments were unhelpful, and I maintain that they were insulting to the committee. Next time, I'll run <defense> on --quiet, but I won't change my opinions. And if the cost of being allowed to state my opinion is the loss of my position on the committee, or as a mod on this forum, then so be it. Bring it on.

adam

yellum

Firstly a point of order or whatever it is. A poll of people here should not be used to force Adam out or to get him to resign as not all members hang out here. Some sort of emailed ballot would need to be used with proper anonymity and validation of the members.

I myself don't think Dahamsta should be removed over this. I believe in second chances. I do think that himself and Bard have hot been impartial in recent postings but that shows that they're emotional, which is a good quality for a tough campaign like IrelandOffline is fighting.

I do think that Moderators should be stone cold and objective as much as possible. Telling people to piss off or calling people tossers is not objective and will of course get used against IOFFL by eirscum and the other players.

Even if recent newbies are just trolls looking for a fight and to draw you out, they got their wish. Some patience is needed. These people are looking to you for guidance and wisdom and should be treated with respect even if they give you none. You are representing over 1000 members and an organisation when you post your replies here so even if your personal beliefs are that they should get no respect back you need to remember that you are a representative of the committee.

If you still want to speak personally and as a committee member then may I suggest you create another nick like bard-IOFFL dahamsta-IOFFL when you are officially representing the whole IOFFL group or just clarify which mode you are in.

It might be no harm to have an easy to find link on the IrelandOffline page on what IrelandOffline has done so far since formation with further links then to the news events. Also the Committee members and Mods should consider putting a link to the faq in their sigs and encouraging anyone new to this forum to look there for the answers before asking here.


So to finish and sum up: Lets all be more impartial, patient and "lovely" to each other and treat everyone with respect. If somone asks the same question point them to the faq, if somone insults and slags IrelandOffline point out their inaccuracy by showing what IrelandOffline has done and is striving to do. If you find someone is annoying you, take a break for a while and come back with an intelligent answer. Chill people.

But never forget about the sunscreen ....

MS

Guys please hang on for a min. I never ment for anything like this to happen and i apologise. And dahamsta (Community Moderator)
I apologise to u also. Ok we got off on the wrong footing and never seen eye to eye and we both have different opinions.... so be it! Lets just agree to differ ok. We are both new to this.... me to the group and u new to being a moderator here and we BOTH!! got out of hand is some way or another. Its just a missunderstanding between 2 people there is no need to let it go any further. I know we had our indifferences and whatever. But i think you should be left as Moderator. Two wrongs dont make a right and we both just let off some steam. Lets just let things sit and take our frustration/anger out on the people that indirectly caoused all this 'Eircom'. My opinion of u, like yours of me, is still the same and i will not withdraw my comments as well.


Lets just shake on it mate and leave it at that

/me offers a hand of Friendship

MS

PS apologies to everyone for draging out this thread this will be my last post to it.....sorry

angryuser

Once again Adam has shown, with his response, that he is totally inadequate as a committe member, and certainly as a moderator.
What kind of stupid guessing game is he indulging in now ? Decipher this ? Thats kids stuff, and shows the arrogance of the man. Having watched his activity on this and many other posts, I have held back until now, but as he has gone so far over the top it is time we spoke out. If any of the contributors to the forum feel that he will change his ways, then think again. Personalities do not change, no more than a leopard changes its spots.
I agree, on 2nd thoughts that a public Poll is not the thing, so as the committe elected him, presumably without any input from us, it is up to the committee to remove him. I note 'so far' that Bard has said nothing. ? Such arrogance, heavy handedness, bad language, and presumptions of power have no place on this site, or on this committee, or anywhere else in a democratic society or organisation. So, Eleanor, Martin & Co, lets have him removed, as fast as he was elected by your goodselves. This forum was a good place to be, until Adam arrived on the scene. Lets put it back to the way it was. Please.

Bard

I note 'so far' that Bard has said nothing. ?

Frankly I thought this was an appallingly bad thread which was not worth contributing to... - but I feel something has to be said now.

--

Adam was co-opted to the committee because of his helpful contributions and his willingness and capability to help IrelandOFFLine out further. I for one very much disagree with his addition to the committee being reversed and I expect the committee will feel the same way.

angryuser, - Adam has made 10 times the contribution (probably more) to this forum than you ever have or will. He has been helpful and informative, engaging in intelligent (and factual) conversations and long may this last.

As far as I'm concerned, the status quo regarding committee members and moderators will remain and nobody will be 'removed' as all of them are doing their jobs very well. Who the hell are you to ask for ANYONE to be removed? - especially after the huge number of positive and helpful contributions he has made! Just what good have you done, yourself, that makes you better than him and able to demand his 'dismissal'? ...

Take your petty bickering and mud-slinging elsewhere... and STAY on-topic PLEASE.

This thread should have stayed locked in the first place. As I said already, it's unhelpful, and unproductive. It's the sort of conversation that would make the observers from Eircom or the ODTR point and giggle due to the idiotic arguements it has spawned. Quit it... Now.

Thank you,

Delphi91

Having watched this thread for a bit now, I'm gonna give my $0.02 worth (for what it's worth!!)

I can understand MS's initial postings. I too have noticed a slight back off in momentum on the boards since mid-summer. Now please don't get me wrong - I understand perfectly that IOFFL is totally voluntary and the committee have lives in the real world also, we all do.

With that in mind, maybe I could make a suggestion? It is quite possible that there are steps that could be taken, etc to keep things moving in the interim. So, if the committee came together briefly, and decided what they were and then came back to the boards and basically said:

"Folks, to keep things moving, we feel that the following things need to be done:
[Task 1]
[Task 2]
[Task 3]
...etc

Now at the moment, we can't devote as much time as we would like to these tasks due to outside pressure. We are asking for people to volunteer to make up sub-commitees which will handle the tasks."

I have no problem with the current commitee remaining in situ, but given that everyone has an outside life and not a whole load of free time, then maybe getting smaller sub-commitees formed which would report back to the main commitee every month or so, might be a help??? Obviously this would have to be tightly controlled with the functions of each sub-commitee clearly identified, etc. Each subcommitee would also be responsible for it's own existence, meetings, etc. I don't want to whole thing to get bogged down in beaurocracy, etc, but I think it might be a vaild suggestsion worth considering.

One other comment that I would make reflects on the nature of some of the posts in here. I would have to agree with the people who have commented on the posts from the Moderators. I understand that people get pissed off with comments, etc. believe me, I've let both barrels go at times myself. But I think the job of the moderator is to stay neutral and unbiased and to control the general tone of the posts by reminding people to stay on topic, etc, rather than telling people to piss off, etc. I don't think it solves anything if the thread deteriorates into a slagging match between posters and moderators.

So, for all concerned, lets keep the posts civil, ok?..PLLLLEEEAAASSSEEEEEEEEEE.

Mike

angryuser

Well said Mike. What you said is Entirely as it should be, but unfortunately is not. Just look at Bard's posting above ?? That is precisely my point, and what all the problem is about. Is it a guilt feeling that generates such a post ? It probably should be ? By posting such a reply he has totally confirmed my worries and my concern. Need any more be said ? The next will undoubtedly be (if they bother at all) a member of Eircom staff downloading or copying all these posts and threads, and shoving them in our face, with some suitable remark ?? God help us.
The point has now been made, not only by me, but thankfully by others too, so if those responsible are man enough, let them admit, and rectify their ways, failing which this campaign and forum is doomed to failure, if its not already too late ??

Delphi91

Originally posted by angryuser
...Just look at Bard's posting above ?? That is precisely my point, and what all the problem is about. Is it a guilt feeling that generates such a post ? It probably should be ? By posting such a reply he has totally confirmed my worries and my concern. Need any more be said ?...

This is the point I'm making - not about Bards comments, but in your post above, you have to pass a comment on them also. Leave well enough alone. You're going to give Bard an excuse to reply (which he has every right to), but then you'll reply to that, then he'll reply, etc, etc. See what I'm getting at???

The next will undoubtedly be (if they bother at all) a member of Eircom staff downloading or copying all these posts and threads, and shoving them in our face, with some suitable remark ?? God help us.

Or more importantly, it won't do much for IOFFL in terms of being able to get further meetings with Eircom or any other relevant body if they pop in here (which I believe they do) and see some of the childish carry-on that has been littering this board recently - and I mean ON ALL SIDES!!!!

Lets cop ourselves on here folks. We all want the same thing - cheap, flat-rate access to the net. Lets work towards that goal and stop the petty bickering and insulting that is going on here.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion in here. Lets not shoot them down in flames just 'cos we don't like what they have to say. Lets be calm and civilised.

Mike

Rags

"Adam should be asked to resign, due to his unnacceptable conduct as a committee member and moderator. ? "
Throw the book at him I say, lol seriously tho I think thats nonsence to be honest, especially over something this silly to menction getting rid of him. He has posted some really good and thoughtful posts. But I think we all need to remember we are suppose to be on the same side, if we cant stop fighting with each other, how we suppose to beat Eircon ?

Might be a good idea to lock this thread before it becomes even more of a farce. Oh and I dont want to hear anyone say *he started it *


James

Ps Oh if anyone from eircom is reading this, Install my Isdn line you lazy good for nothing gits!!!

hmmm

There's some imo legitimate concerns being raised in this thread and are getting swamped in feuding

1. People here are being told "the committee are doing stuff in the background" and nothing is visible (bar blackout which is one persons idea). If the 'committee' are all too busy right now then fine just say that. If they're out of ideas as to where to go from here then say that also. If the idea is that as a group it'd be better to wait and see what happens in the legal arguments then say that also. Don't take it as a personal criticism if people are expressing frustration at a lack of obvious movement.
2. Moderators should 'try' to be impartial. Shouting someone down because they disagree with your opinion, or locking threads when criticism is raised isn't on. I've been moderating on my own forums for years, and once you get dragged into 'opinionated moderation' you lose respect period. I've already made my feelings known about Bard, Adam is doing a good job in driving the group forward & is being beaten on unnecessarily by some posters - he at least is willing to debate arguments and isn't full of his own self importance.
3. I wouldn't like to see us getting dragged back into the arguments we had when we first started, with "the committe will decide, you rabble at the back be quiet" type comments. That clique building has led to huge ill-feeling in the past as most of us well remember <grin>.

I'd hope the above is representative of quite a few peoples feelings. For my own part, and unsure whether it's widely shared, I'm tired of what starts off as anti-Eircom (who I detest) iniatives being watered down into fluffy 'we're mad at everyone' protests, it just doesn't make an impact.

dahamsta

I'm going to make this quick, and not conclusive:

Time contraints are not the only issue affecting the seeming lack of action in IrelandOffline. There is also the issue of "secrecy", which is absolutely necessary if the political lobbying of IrelandOffline is to succeed. If we tell you publicly, the media and Eircom will know, and Eircom will lobby in the opposite direction. And make no mistake, Eircom will win. So I'll give you a hint:

IrelandOffline has and is dealing with two senior policitians. I don't know much about the first to be honest, it's not in my hands. The second was initiated yesterday, by me, and has led to another senior politician. And I'll be initiating contact with a fourth, even more senior politician next week. That's all I can give you. You'll just have to take me at my word that this is constructive.

Re: Delegation

1) We need someone to draw up a new sitemap for the IrelandOffline website. Our situation has changed dramatically, and the website needs to reflect that.

2) I need someone to work on the blackout website. I have to manage my time, and my time here and responding to things like Karlin Lillington's "challenge" in yesterday's IT take a lot of time.

Re: Impartiality

I've apologised. I've committed to at least attempt to control what I say and how I say it. That should be enough.

Re: Resignation

I'm not going to discuss this any more. I find it mind-boggling and absolutely offensive.

adam

Dustaz

This thread is , was and always will be

COMPLETE ARSE

Dahamasta, ignore the muppets.


let this thread die please, k, thx

dahamsta

Nearly forgot:

/me accepts hand of friendship and buys everyone a pint

Dustaz, that's offensive. You're barred.

adam

Bard

Originally posted by Dustaz:


let this thread die please, k, thx

What a good idea!

Consider it locked.