Pressure group urges Internet boycott

dahamsta

Pressure group urges Internet boycott

I'll leave the commentary to you. I will say to Mr Pat Delaney if he is reading this, however, that he needs to wake up and smell the coffee. At the very least, he should have mentioned to Jamie Smythe that although he mightn't support IrelandOffline's initiative - and at least we have an initiative - that he supports our goals. It is his members that are suffering the most from the lack of available services, and it is his members that have the most to gain in the short-medium to long term.

Frankly, as I've mentioned on the Linux mailing list, the suggestion that this will somehow damage is business is the only ludicrous thing here. It's the silliest idea I ever heard. If Mr Delaney's members companies are in the situation where one day of not using the Internet will irreparably harm their business, I think they made need to look for wider issues.

A badly thought out comment, once again because of a basic lack of awareness. Mr Delaney needs to talk to his members.

adam

Occidental

"However, it said wholesale flat rate Internet access was currently not a viable business here."

Eircom could make selling Guinness "not a viable business here".

And for Mr Delaney,

Small business is being dumped on day in day out by telecoms companies in this country. To say that a day without the Internet is a "ludicrous idea" shows how little you know about the current situation (try asking your members). Eircom etc. frequently have no/sporadic service through local POP's for longer than 24 hours, which has exactly the same implications for your members as Ireland Offlines proposed action. How come you are not shouting from the rooftops about this, or are media soundbites more your preferred line of work.

ekehoe

Originally posted by Occidental
"However, it said wholesale flat rate Internet access was currently not a viable business here."

Well...that goes against what he said in our meeting with him back in July. I seem to remember the line "couldn't see why there wouldn't be FRIACO by Christmas" coming from Pat Galvin's mouth.

And, like you both say, as for Mr. Delaney...whatever. We're campaigning for small businesses too, sir. Not just home users and geeks. But I bet that if we are successful, you might step up and take the credit? I'll be sure to wave this article back under your nose. No, forget that, I'm going to call him this afternoon.

E

seamus

Maybe the Ireland.com article pointed out by adam on that sticky is a bit biased towards the telcos? I don't know if this is going to be published in the Irish Times, but it seems to me like they are siding slightly against the blackout. They have comments from some guy about small businesses being 'devestated' by it :rolleyes:, and some Eircom spokeswoman saying call charges are lowest in europe!!! I don't see them printing any facts opposing these two views, ie it doesn't look like they attempted to contact anyone from IOffl, but maybe just read what was one the website(or robbed some other paper's piece).

Fergus

"As it stands, Eircom's Internet access call charges are among the cheapest in Europe," added an Eircom spokeswoman.

Yet again we see this piece of disinformation from Eircom.

They are referring to the per-minute interconnect rate for internet calls over their voice network, which they wholesale at around 0.8p/minute.

Of course, in the UK if you have a flat rate dial-up product it's around 20/month. At Eircom's rate, 20 quid buys you about 40 hours or so online, not a month. That's 1600% more expensive than the UK. Not in any way 'among the cheapest in Europe'.

And of course, when trotting out this rubbish, Eircom also like to brush over the fact that they are forcing internet consumers to use the highly inappropriate voice network in the first place. And the longer they can keep it that way, the longer they can continue ripping them off with per-minute charges.

SkepticOne

Another good article. Eircom did not have much to say in response:

"As it stands, Eircom's Internet access call charges are among the cheapest in Europe,"

Yeah, right.

As regards to Mr Delaney of the SFA, it has to be remembered that this organisation recently published a survey where 70% of users claimed to have broadband. In fact, the question was worded badly and most of these had ISDN. 128k ISDN costs around £6/hour for daytime use in addition to line rental and subscription charges.

If the Internet is so important that one day without is unthinkable, then these firms must be paying a fortune in call charges. Probably hundreds of pounds per month.

Surely the short term sacrifice of a day's Internet is worth it if it means gaining European style broadband access (~£70/month unlimited ADSL).

The SFA is failing to educate its members about communications technologies and their costs.

Trojan

Originally posted by seamus
Maybe the Ireland.com article pointed out by adam on that sticky is a bit biased towards the telcos? I don't know if this is going to be published in the Irish Times, but it seems to me like they are siding slightly against the blackout.

I'd have said more than slightly. However, this does give IOFFL an opportunity to approach the IT and explain things.

Perhaps this is a case where bad publicity is better than no publicity.

Originally posted by seamus
They have comments from some guy about small businesses being 'devestated' by it :rolleyes:,

Actually, Pat Delaneys comments were the valid opinion of an important member of the small business community. He's the kind of guy that IOFFL should be targeting and educating. How about giving him a call guys (ie commitee members) and explaining the thing to him properly. He probably got a 30 second explanation from the Irish-Times journo who was looking for a nice quote.

Originally posted by seamus
and some Eircom spokeswoman saying call charges are lowest in europe!!!

She said "among the lowest", not "the lowest".

Originally posted by seamus

I don't see them printing any facts opposing these two views, ie it doesn't look like they attempted to contact anyone from IOffl, but maybe just read what was one the website(or robbed some other paper's piece).

Relax a bit there now Seamie!

rgds,
Al.

dahamsta

Just a couple of points. Facts in... uh... fact...

John Marcus has pointed out on the committee mailing list that the article was on page three of the Irish Times. In a tabloid, we'd probably have to roll (pardon the pun) Elana out to get on that page, but in a broadsheet, getting coverage on page three is a fantastic achievement, even if the article isn't truly representative. It's drawing attention to IrelandOffline, and that's what counts.

The Regulator's message of solidarity with IrelandOffline on the goals we want to achieve is groundbreaking. I would like to thank the Regulator and her staff for this publicly.

Yes Fergus, Eircom's assertion that access call charges would appear to be factually correct - we're looking for documentation that will confirm or disprove that by the way, any help will be appreciated - but as you say, it simply doesn't make the Internet cheaper. Your figures should be astounding to the membership when they see them in print (or pixels, as the case may be).

As regards the SFA, it should be pointed out the the SFA's survey flies completely in the face of a document (can't link, see the second article on the front page) recently published on the IBEC website. The fact that the SFA is a subsidiary of IBEC makes this all the more laughable.

To reiterate SkepticOne's comment, I'm going to quote from an interview with the website 12free.co.uk this morning:

I'm glad you asked me that, because this is something that can and has been genuinely misunderstood by the general public. The key aim of the IrelandOffline Blackout - and we very much appreciate 12free.co.uk's support by the way - is quite simply education. Although Tony Blair's "Education, education, education" comment has been parodied in the media more times that I care to count, it still rings true to me. Education is the key to unlocking the Internet in Ireland - by educating consumers, businesspeople, politicians and representative organisations with the facts about Internet access in Ireland, we can bring everyone together to solve these problems. And with Ireland facing into an election, there is no better time to do that.

We're not trying to hurt Eircom or the ISP's in Ireland, and in all honesty that's not going to happen anyway, because even if the protest is a huge success, it will be a tiny blip in these companies balance sheets at the end of the year. But more importantly, we're not asking people or businesses to do the impossible. If small Irish companies are unable to stay off the Internet for the day, that's fine with us. We would like some form of support from them, but if it's going to disrupt their business, we absolutely don't want them to take that risk. But we also need to point out that if it is possible, if the losses generated are manageable, this is a good thing to do. Because in the medium to long term, we're actually trying to save them a hefty wad of cash, make them more competitive, and make them more productive. You can't argue with results like that.

Finally, Seamus, Jamie Smyth did contact me about the Blackout, twice in fact. Personally, he seems to be supportive of our cause - although I don't want to put words in his mouth - but Jamie strikes me as a journalist who doesn't like to editorialise. Personally, I would have preferred if Jamie had contacted me again for a comment on Mr Delaney's comments, or published some of my comments on us absolutely not wanting to disrupt business, but this is the price you pay when dealing with the media. Personally speaking, I appreciate the article. I just hope Jamie will give us a better chance to defend ourselves from incorrect commentary in future.

adam

Occidental

This might go a bit sideways, but a possible suggestion for a comparison between Eircom and other European operators.

1. List monthly access costs for POTS, 64 & 128K ISDN, ADSL etc. with breaks shown at 1,10,50,100,200,500,1000 hours.

2. Show annual line/equipment rental prices for each operator for each access type

3. Base all pricing on peak hours (this is more relavent to business as the majority of access will be Monday-Friday 8-6)

If anyone can make suggestions on the operators and provide any of the information, I will be more than happy to put a spreadsheet together and update it every month.

As I say just an opening suggestion and please feel free to change everything, but if we produce something ourselves, it might finally get us away from the confusion marketing game that the Telco's seem to love.

SkepticOne

Nice interview there. As time goes on I see such comments from Eircom like "As it stands, Eircom's Internet access call charges are among the cheapest in Europe" ringing increasingly hollow. With education, people will realise that Eircom are talking about slow, obsolete products that are no longer used by significant Internet users in Europe anymore. In Europe, people who use the internet for more than a few hours a week do not go for metered "56K", they go for unmetered flat-rate or ADSL/Cable. Eircom does not currently offer anything comparable. Even their capped and crippled proposed ADSL would not survive in a competitive marketplace.

It is unfortunate that so much of this education task falls to IrelandOffline but that is where the solution lies.

Bard

The SFA have done exactly that to get better and better value Internet access in Ireland ... SFA...

rymus

Cheapest call rates my arse. Or have some of these Eircom reps never traveled to or even heard of any other country besides Ireland?

No more ranting now.. down to business. Is there an official blackout page designed or on the way?

phaxx

http://blackout.irelandoffline.org/splash.htm is what you're looking for I think.

(goes away sniggering about "lowest in europe")

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Originally posted by Bard
The SFA have done exactly that to get better and better value Internet access in Ireland ... SFA...

Here here as they say in the Oireachtas:)

this outburst from the SFA makes me think that the must have it real cosy w/ €ircom, but which couldn't be further from the truth.

Logic if any is severly lacking

dahamsta

Where possible, please don't download the official Blackout splash screen until next week. Hudson has provided me with a few choice nuggets to add to the page, to reinforce our assertions.

adam

MS

ROFLMBO! I really had to laugh when I read this;

__________________________________________________
Origionally posted by Skepticone

With education, people will realise that Eircom are talking about slow, obsolete products that are no longer used by significant Internet users in Europe anymore.

__________________________________________________

and then i did this:

C:\>tracert www.eircom.net

Tracing route to www.eircom.net [159.134.237.56]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

Thur 11 Nov' 01 Time 19:20
1 57 ms 56 ms 56 ms as1.athlone1.eircom.net [159.134.238.228]
2 313 ms 205 ms 294 ms athlone1.tr1.exs.dublin.eircom.net
[159.134.238.21]
3 259 ms 301 ms 299 ms fe6-1-0.core1.exs.dublin.eircom.net
[159.134.236.1]
4 262 ms 206 ms 201 ms fa0-0.core2.exs.dublin.eircom.net
[159.134.236.13]
5 275 ms 299 ms 299 ms s0-1-1.core2.cra.dublin.eircom.net
[159.134.192.249]
6 259 ms * 201 ms fa0-0.service2.cra.dublin.eircom.net
[159.134.191.71]
7 280 ms 400 ms 302 ms www.eircom.net [159.134.237.56]

Trace complete.

and this:

Thur 11 Nov'01 Time 20:29

C:\>ping www.eircom.net

Pinging www.eircom.net [159.134.237.56] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 159.134.237.56: bytes=32 time=669ms TTL=59
Request timed out.
Reply from 159.134.237.56: bytes=32 time=872ms TTL=59
Reply from 159.134.237.56: bytes=32 time=868ms TTL=59

Ping statistics for 159.134.237.56:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 3, Lost = 1 (25% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 669ms, Maximum = 872ms, Average = 602ms

HEHHEEHE i am using the so called Eircom High-Speed :rolleyes:
line. And its been like that since i loged on hours ago. Some service HUH! ? /me goes and gets some education and looks at Oceanfree or UTV Internet hmmmmmm


MS

hmmm

Isn't it funny to see that the SFA has a big two page spread in the SBpost today "in association with Eircom", extolling the virtues of the SFA and Eircomnet. Draw your own conclusions, I'm not getting sued by saying what I'm thinking

dahamsta

Well spotted hmmm. I find that quite... illuminating...

adam

NeMiSiS

Taken from http://www.sfa.ie/ebusiness/foreword.shtml#patdelaney ..

"We must stop hanging on to the traditional ways of doing business and reach out and embrace the
technologies which our competitors are using - ideally before them"

eh nice one Pat lets see you embrace adsl like the rest of Europe,and ideally before them...well hell looks like the rest of europe and the world is gonna have at least another years advantage on us

that whole ebusiness guide is allmost disinformation imho

so whats stopping us "embracing" these "new" technologies are the people that support the sfa site i.e. eircom..

and if irish internet access and services are so good why is sfa.ie hosted in the uk..mind you imaginet is owned by eircom me thinks..and id say the hosting is paid for by that nice little "supported by eircom" at the bottom of their page
http://www.ripe.net/perl/whois?query=212.38.78.38&.submit=Submit+Query

wheh

Occidental

And this from the SFA's (aptly named or what) IT survey.

"Significantly almost half of small businesses in Ireland are dissatisfied with their internet service. Internet Service Providers (ISPs) cause e-mail to crash regularly according to over 45% of those surveyed"

Be warned, an Eircom logo at the bottom of your home page may induce sudden memory loss and prolonged irrational behaviour.

Bard

Originally posted by Occidental
And this from the SFA's (aptly named or what) IT survey.

"Significantly almost half of small businesses in Ireland are dissatisfied with their internet service. Internet Service Providers (ISPs) cause e-mail to crash regularly according to over 45% of those surveyed"

Be warned, an Eircom logo at the bottom of your home page may induce sudden memory loss and prolonged irrational behaviour.

What a brilliant quote ... would have been good to use that in a direct rebuttal of their "Blackout is pointless" comments.

Memory loss indeed!

Well done there Occidental,

dahamsta

Yeah, well spotted Occidental. I'll try and squeeze that in when I talk to Radio Clare tomorrow. (Didn't think of it a minute ago. Doh!)

adam

billy the squid

Maybe the Ireland.com article pointed out by adam on that sticky is a bit biased towards the telcos? I don't know if this is going to be published in the Irish Times, but it seems to me like they are siding slightly against the blackout. They have comments from some guy about small businesses being 'devestated' by it , and some Eircom spokeswoman saying call charges are lowest in europe!!! I don't see them printing any facts opposing these two views, ie it doesn't look like they attempted to contact anyone from IOffl, but maybe just read what was one the website(or robbed some other paper's piece).

And Ireland.com no all about paying for their internet dont they. Last I heard Ireland.com was losing 3 million notes a year for the Irish times