Osamas fled... Why are they still supporting a civil war?

Loomer

Oh yeah... I forgot about the oil pipeline

JustHalf

Yeah, and how dare they just leave those Iraqi's to fight against their government, and not help them at all!

Oh, I forgot. No matter what the US do, they're wrong.

Excelsior

And tell me Loomer, is there something you know about Osama's movements that just hasn't been reported to the rest of us?

bonkey

I havent seen the news in a while...when did they announce that he has fled? A quick check of my main news sites produces a sum total of 0 references.

jc

Hobbes

My guess he has fled to the next country the US needs to invade. Indonesia wasn't it?

Excelsior

I thought he had moved to a secret hideout deep inside a Dutch mountain.

Chaos-Engine

Osama Bin Laiden is probably the most effective icon ever created by US propaganda machine. He is simply an actor and the US r so proud with him even the militant arab world supports him... lol

Excelsior

That was, er, relevant.

bonkey

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
Osama Bin Laiden is probably the most effective icon ever created by US propaganda machine. He is simply an actor and the US r so proud with him even the militant arab world supports him... lol

You've been watching too much of "Wah the Dog".

jc

Loomer

Hmm I saw from several sources(although probably all ultimately getting from the same original source i.e. reuters) that there is confirmed reports of bin laden crossing the border into Pakistan. This was like 4 days ago.

Excelsior

a) That would be, like, big news. Do you have a link to show us informationally-challenged pe0ns?

b) If it is confirmed, can we not just continue to chase him?

JustHalf

Originally posted by Excelsior
b) If it is confirmed, can we not just continue to chase him?

NO!

Do you not hear what he's saying?

Typedef

Ok, here's the reason why.
They can. The Americans coined the phrase "might is right". Now today on sky news there was an American in a Green uniform decorated by medals etc, droning on about America's right of self-defence.

The interesting part is the double standard. The USA can give billions of dollars a year to Israel in ostensibly military funds. Now when a palestinian retaliates against Israel in defence of colonization he is a terrorist, but when the USA starts a war to lynch a man contrary to the supposed due process within the USA, that's self defence.

Yes no matter what America does it is wrong, how could it be right? There are millions of Iraqi children dead/dying right now because of American "interests". No it is not because of Saddam Hussein(interesting how Yassir Arafat is not being blamed for Israeli occupation of Palestine), it is because the propaganda lie that is the America of movies like Perl Harbour is just that, propaganda.

The American dream is just that, a dream, and we the little people, who could easily be on the other side of an American missile can't do a damn thing because if you do, that makes you a "terrorist", it is not self defence when it is big brother you are fighting mon chere, realise it is big brother that we hate, read the books you're not meant to read, think the toughts you aren't allowed think, and enjoy it until the walls cave in and someone else is big brother or the thought police get you.

The war serves five pruposes.
1. Oil interests in the region
2. Increase support for President Bush and the republican administration (who did not even get the popular vote in the elections that the Republicans rigged)
3. Feed the bloated american weapons industry.
4. Flex American sabres right on Russia's doorstep, and be seen to be effectual against an enemy the USA created.
5. Bamboozle the US electorate into thinking that somehow terrorists grow on trees, they have no reason to attack the US apart from hating "freedom", the freedom to bomb who you like and screw anyone who disagrees as those people would be ingrateful communists and/or Muslim Palestinian mud people.

God bless the Irish-American, at least we know that when the fit-hits the shan, all we have to do is seem to be a nice little left wing nation that plays ball when push comes to shove. ahhhhhhh. Selling out rulez.

Oh but, don't you dare say a word against the Americans like Mary Harney would have it. According to Mary Harney, Ireland owes it's prosperity to the USA and Europe, how typical Mary Harney's government wants to srcap the democratic result of the Irish people on the Nice treaty, because the government regards us with disdain. No it's not the hard working Irish people who have made Ireland one of the most affluent places on earth, it's hand-outs from the Yanks and Europeans. Wow thanks Mary, I guess East-German deprivation does not exist, I guess the south of Italy is a picnic spot, I guess the billions that get pumped into these regions doesn't count? Heck probably the best thing to do is suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with your tiny party is a communist? I'll be sure not so say anything against our American/European sugar-daddies lest I incur their wrath shall I? Now you be a good Tainiste and tell it like it is ok?

Oh god I love our benovalent leaders, sniff. Vote for me and I promise to be just like every other politician , honest.

Red Moose

Originally posted by Typedef
I'll be sure not so say anything against our American/European sugar-daddies lest I incur their wrath shall I? Now you be a good Tainiste and tell it like it is ok?

That's an Irish car your driving yeah? And the oil you use - that's obviously from the vast Irish oil fields.

Oh yeah, I forgot that that's obviously an Irish internet your using.

Hmm, don't forget the motorways we now have - all of course funded by the Irish people.

Look back and think what have the Irish people given Ireland? Besides Guinness I mean. Loads of money poured in, and still stupid ****ers running the corporation so we have crap roads even with billions in support funding. Still Eircom hold the telecoms industry to ransom - and the situation would be worse if they are not being forced by EU legislation to stop being a bunch of fags.

Discounting the massive assisstance Ireland has gotten over the past 30 years is pretty ignorant and ungrateful.

East Germany is there because the USSR *made* an East Germany. The years it will take to correct itself shows how much they ****ed things up.

The very fact that the Nice treaty got rejected by Ireland shows that we are actually living in a democracy.

Yes the south of Italy is a great picnic spot - you should go there some time. If you are wondering why it doesn't have the affluence of northern Italy, that goes back as far as the Roman Empire.

I won't comment on Israel except to say that I think Ariel Sharon is an utter prat - and very exploitative of having the US as a "friend". Shame on him for the Afghanistan war being used as an opportunity to send tanks into Palestinian areas when the news was all elsewhere. If they are so civilised compared to the Palestinians why do they always kill a few people when negotiations go wrong?

Hobbes

that's obviously from the vast Irish oil fields.

But then Irish cars don't drink like a leaving cert student who just passed thier exam.

Prehaps if Americans learnt not to waste natuaral resources they wouldn't need to be so dependant on oil.

Excelsior

Its great what those East Berliners have done to their city, isn't it Typedef?
I mean, gosh, the renovation of Potzdamer Platz from a war zone ten years ago into the most interesting new urban environment in Europe must have cost $100 billions. Those East Germans worked fierce hard to do that.

Oh wait, they didn't. The West Germans (the capitalists) did it for them so that a renovated East Berlin could take part on a level par with capitalist cities from West (free) Germany.


It is amazing what extrapolations can be made by a young man with a couple of Michael Moore videos, a Noam Chomsky book and a Naomi Klein article from the Guardian.

To stay on the point of this thread, the Irish Times had a report on their front cover yesterday saying that the hunt for Bin Laden is down to two areas. Now that might be inaccurate. Of course, the first casualty of war is truth. (That isn't by the way an American creation, that is just the way it has to be) But all reasonable sources suggest that Bin Laden is still in Afghanistan and is about to be caught.

I could take issue with most everything you have written. I'd love it if disgruntled youth would recognise that they may be right that alot of orthodox news channels are tainted, but that doesn't inherently mean that alternative ones are any more pure.


I'm off to the For Sale board where I can lurk in peace.

Typedef

So what the hell is your point? By your logic you would say that the countries outside of the CAP who are not allowed to process their raw materials before exporting them into Europe are just lazy. No, countries outside of the CAP are dictated to by countries in it. Eh hello, if the countries outside of the CAP were allowed process their raw materials further then they most surely would. Why do you people have difficulty acknowledging that despite the vaunted "soft landing" that was meant to have happened in 1995-1996 the Irish economy grew more once funding from Europe stopped? Are you afraid to say, yes despite the stuck up, self important nations who tell the world and us that we are no good, that our economy is out performing theirs in a time of economic melt-down my as much as 6%.

Wow those european guys must be really generous giving money and jobs and oil in sufficient quantities to make our economy grow by 6%, while denying even 1% growth to their own, what a wonderful world we live in eh?

Maybe Mary Harney is right, if only the Icelandic people would realise that Europe will enflate their economy to the tune of 6% if they sell out, then they too could sit on their duffs and bend over on queue, thanks for clearing that up!

azezil

I've changed my opinion on the american's involvement in light of recent developments... I now fully support their campaign n i think it only right to see it through till the end.

Typedef

War is wrong and what's worse is that humans are smart enough to know it is wrong and smart enough to avoid it.
We need to grow up as a species and a socitey and stop this chimpanzee with a stick way of running our socitey.
If we are truely better than animals then we had better start acting like it!

Lemming

TypeDef .. you either have a short memory, no ability to see what might have been, deliberately posting in this manner to annoy people, or are seeing the world through a VERRY funny pair of glasses.

Ireland, had it not joined the E.C.C/E.U, (insert whichever you wish) would still be in absolute RAG order, which it was before. Europe HAS been good to us no matter what you try to say otherwise.

We wouldn't have had the money to develop a lot of our infrastructure etc., meaning that when we dropped our corp.tax rates, companies might not have taken the bait cause we would have been in such rag-order as a country in general otherwise.

And that's another thing. Those big shiny US corps didn't have to come here y'know. But they did, and they in part kick-started this country in economic terms.

So to say that we owe nothing to the US or to Europe is naivety at best, self-absorbed arrogant pig-ignorance at worst.

Typedef

hahahahah, what a riot.

You think that the American corps are coming here because they are nice guys, pull the other one pal, they come here for cheap labour when they can get it and low tax when they can extort it, wake up.

To clarify, Dublin in fact Leinster & Cork & Industrialised areas of the North don't especially need European money. The west is a perhiperal region, just as the South of Italy is perhiperal, QED, we participate in Europe and just like other countries, regions that qualify get money, that's why the goverment is delegating greater powers to the region, so that the affluence of Dublin does not negate the entitlement of the West for communal funds.

So how does the West getting European funds imply that somehow I should be so grateful to Europe that I should do what Ramano Prodi former Italian PM says? The south of Italy gets billions as does the East of Germany, how does the west getting the same european money somehow make Mary Harney and this government entitled to tell me who I can and can't support and wether or not I support war against the impoverished Afghani's? Since this is not meant to be a police state, just who in the hell do these people think they are saying these things to me?
So I should somehow tow the line because the money Europe gives the west is greener than the money it gives to other bigger countries? How does that logic work, oh I forgot, it doesn't now does it?

Lets recognise Germany and Italy were crippled after the last war they lost, lets also recognise that Ireland used to pay up to 1/15 of the British Imperial budget, next lets forget about the mindless brainwashing that tells us that because of an Island we live on we are somehow less able then other people on the planet to go about the business of making money and being affluent, the reality is our European would-be masters would kill for a quater of the economic growth we will "probably" expericence over the next 10-20 years, so if that lot are so great why can't they compete? Instead of whinging about our corporate tax rate, compete. What are they afraid, unable or just too stuck up to get up off of their flags to compete so they would rather drag us down to their level?

Ditto the politics of war, I don't agree, I believe the self-awareness should negate such totally mindless actions such as war and that we are right now wasting time that should be better spent improving ourselves. Ergo no I will not let Europe and the US dictate a militaristic policy of repression to me on economic grounds, nor on any other grounds, you want to dictate to me then I'm afraid you will have to install a nice friendly military dictator just like everywhere else, just like in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Thank you, call again.

Shinji

While certainly recognising that the EU has been massively important to the development of Ireland into what it is now (I'm less convinced of the role of the US in this...), I'm not entirely taken with the idea that this means we have to blindly support such organisations in any action they take out of some misplaced sense of gratitude...

Lemming

Originally posted by Typedef
hahahahah, what a riot.

You think that the American corps are coming here because they are nice guys, pull the other one pal, they come here for cheap labour when they [can get it and low tax when they can extort it, wake up.

Never said they were nice guys. They're a corp. Nice doesn't figure in business. I'm just pointing out a simple fact typedef.

Lets recognise Germany and Italy were crippled after the last ware they lost, lets also recognise that Ireland used to pay up to 1/15 of the British Imperial budget, next lets forget about the mindless brainwashing that tells us that because of an Island we live on we are somehow less able then other people on the planet, the reality is our European would-be masters would kill for a quater of the economic growth we will "probably" expericence over the next 10-20 years, so if that lot are so great why can't they compete?

Well tell ye what then. If all those foreign companies p*ssed off tomorrow, and we pulled of the EU, how well would we be doing.

Answer me this too ... if Ireland can do so well on its own, then why DON'T we pull out of the EU. Why are we still in it?? What possible gain could we get since you've already stated that this country is the dogs proverbial economically.

Lemming

Originally posted by Shinji
I'm not entirely taken with the idea that this means we have to blindly support such organisations in any action they take out of some misplaced sense of gratitude...

Absolutely Shinji. I'm not advocating bending over on cue for these organisations. What I am trying to say though is that we can show recognition and thanks to them without blindly following them.

Typedef

To my mind
European Economic Community does not Equal
Federal European Union.

I don't believe the Irish really want a Federal Europe, I do believe that is where it is going, I don't support it. Too many people died trying to gain the freedom of this country and in a Federal Europe we will be a drop in the Ocean, does this serve Irish interests.

You tell me.

Typedef

Originally posted by Lemming


Absolutely Shinji. I'm not advocating bending over on cue for these organisations. What I am trying to say though is that we can show recognition and thanks to them without blindly following them.

Yeah sure, just like Charlie Haughy and I quote
"Thanks a million big Fella".

Lemming

Originally posted by Typedef
To my mind
European Economic Community does not Equal
Federal European Union.

I don't believe the Irish really want a Federal Europe, I do believe that is where it is going, I don't support it. Too many people died trying to gain the freedom of this country and in a Federal Europe we will be a drop in the Ocean, does this serve Irish interests.

You tell me.

A subtle change of subject there I see .......

But to answer your question as regards a federated europe, we wouldn't be the only ones in that ocean.

Just for the record, whilst I am in favour of the idea of an EU, I am not of the mindset looking for a EF (European Federation). Were not the only country to have had blood spilt for freedom in Europe typedef. Indeed some EU politicians have been reported as commenting on the Nice treaty "no" vote, and how had other countries been allowed to hold referenda, the answer would have been the same as ours.

Typedef

Originally posted by Lemming


But to answer your question as regards a federated europe, we wouldn't be the only ones in that ocean.

Misery loves company

Excelsior

Originally posted by Lemming

"Never Argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"

Lemming, I think this might be a time to remember your signature and get out of this debate that is clearly going nowhere.



To stay on topic: Has the enigmatic Loomer got any more information on Bin Laden legging it?

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
To my mind
European Economic Community does not Equal
Federal European Union.

I don't believe the Irish really want a Federal Europe, I do believe that is where it is going, I don't support it. Too many people died trying to gain the freedom of this country and in a Federal Europe we will be a drop in the Ocean, does this serve Irish interests.

You tell me.

The Irish economy is so tightly tied to the EU that pulling out of the EU would completely shaft the prosperity of the country. The foreign investment which we see so much of is not just becase we've got cheap labour, but also because we are in the EU, and producing in Ireland means no nasty import taxes when shipping to the EU.

You raise a valid argument about independance vs. "Europeanism", but at the end of the day the is that we realistically dont have a choice unless we want the country to return to the dark ages.

As for "too many people died to gain our freedom" - I suppose this doesnt apply to any other nation? Or are you implying that we are somehow more nationalistic than the other member-states and that this is a good thing?

As for a federal Europe....do you believe we have this now? If so, then can you clarify what you mean by a Federal Europe, cause I cant see it at the moment. If you dont believe its there now, why do you believe it will happen? Why would every other nation in the EU sacrifice their nationality for this if its such a big deal?

If you're replying to this, please try and keep the vitriol to a minimum. While its entertaining reading at times, it does get a bit tiresome....

jc

Loomer

Originally posted by Lemming


Ireland, had it not joined the E.C.C/E.U, (insert whichever you wish) would still be in absolute RAG order, which it was before. Europe HAS been good to us no matter what you try to say otherwise.

Off topic but, am I wrong in thinking that Irelands lower corporate tax goes completely against EEC/EU rules and they have been trying to rein Charlie McCreavey to european standards since day one?

Typedef

Originally posted by bonkey
As for "too many people died to gain our freedom" - I suppose this doesnt apply to any other nation? Or are you implying that we are somehow more nationalistic than the other member-states and that this is a good thing?

Nationalism is a double edged sword, it will help protect and espouse Irish industry but when the Irish are on the other end of it, it will mean an inner-core, or two-tier europe, where in old-boy imperialist countries(Uk, France, Germany, Spain, Italy) take all the real important decisions, decisions we(Irish, small countries in Europe) don't participate in and will not be favourable to us. Just like Nice, Irish negotiators were against the effective disenfranchisement of small countries but the big countries were/are trying to force it through, how does this help Irish prosperity and consequently my prosperity living in Ireland?
It doesn't that's the answer, slippery slope, first the franchise in europe, next "Tax harmonisation", none of this is in my interests or the macro interests of the Irish economy IMO.

This is a small country, while I accept that nationality is a tool that is often used to repress the very people it seeks "supposedly" to defend, it would be easier for example for Germans in Europe to be all cuddly and un-nationalistic as there could be upwards of 110 million German speakers or 1/3 of the current EU to 1/5 of the enlarged one. In a Europe with one ethnic group(or whatever you want to call it) being so large, the interests of such a group are served automatically, a group such as the Irish would need all the support it could get, if nationalism is the tool then yes why not? I live in Ireland so what happens here matters to me, but life did not originate here and if I moved to the US or UK then my affiliations would have to change.

As for a federal Europe....do you believe we have this now? If so, then can you clarify what you mean by a Federal Europe, cause I cant see it at the moment.

Of, relating to, or being a form of government in which a union of states recognizes the sovereignty of a central authority while retaining certain residual powers of government.

Of or constituting a form of government in which sovereign power is divided between a central authority and a number of constituent political units.

If you're replying to this, please try and keep the vitriol to a minimum. While its entertaining reading at times, it does get a bit tiresome....

Maybe I'm not being explicitive enough.
BTW
Vitriolic aspersions and ravings suitably curtailed.

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
favourable to us. Just like Nice, Irish negotiators were against the effective disenfranchisement of small countries but the big countries were/are trying to force it through, how does this help Irish prosperity and consequently my prosperity living in Ireland?

I think its interesting that the Irish negotiators were against it, but once it was agreed, the govt wants to ignore the voice of the public and have one referendum after another until it gets accepted.

Interestingly, a lot of European *people* were apparently against it too, but seeing as their constitutions dont require referenda for their govts to make these decisions, they never had a real say.....

It would be easier for example for Germans in Europe to be all cuddly and un-nationalistic as there could be upwards of 110 million German speakers or 1/3 of the current EU to 1/5 of the enlarged one.

Please dont tell me that you think that the German-speaking nations are all cuddly with each other just cause they speak the same language? No way dude - they are as fiercely nationalistic (in my experience living over here) as the Irish are.

In a Europe with one ethnic group(or whatever you want to call it) being so large, the interests of such a group are served automatically,

Again, they wouldnt consider themselves "a group", no more than we would consider ourselves and England to be the same "ethnic group" because we share the same language.

a group such as the Irish would need all the support it could get,

I'd agree, but in fact this has always been the case. Being a small nation in a big oraganisation has been the primary concern since we even thought about joining the EU, or whatever it was called way back then

BTW Vitriolic aspersions and ravings suitably curtailed.

LOL. Nice one.

jc

Typedef

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Magwitch

As far as I know America showed little interest in hanging around to clean up after OBL is caught. Britian however, perhaps sensitive to future negioations with Islamic nations, did insist that the Allies would sort out an interim adminisration before they left. However we do see the Allies as America and co, but it is in fact Russia that is ahead in the "Great Game" in Afghanistan (again), and who will ultimitly benefit from any pipeline.

American

Originally posted by Typedef
There are millions of Iraqi children dead/dying right now because of American "interests".

What is Saddam Hussein spending all the money on? The U.S. is sending him billions every year, and these children still are dead, dying, sick, starving, shivering with cold? What's the matter with their leader?

Perhaps we should follow the a new suggesion, that we don't give Hussein money in exchange for the oil he wants to sell us, but we give him food and medicine for the children instead.