Speechless

Hobbes

Well not totally. I wonder if they will release Bush Action figures by chrissy.

http://www.topps.com/enduringfreedom.html

Zaphod Beeblebrox

A new set of cards coming soon... Patriots! Featuring Custer, Senator Joe McCarthy and Orval Faubus. :rolleyes:

gandalf

ENDURING FREEDOM PICTURE CARDS presents the New War on Terrorism in a format that children understand.

I thought that site was a joke at first. When I realised it was serious my jaw hit the ground. It reminds me of the propaganda that Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia used during their dark reigns.

Just look at this picture on that page



Doesn't that remind you of those Russian Motherland Soldier propaganda pieces that Stalin churned out.

Gandalf.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Jaysus I'm rolling about the place here.

Not really that I have any opinions on it but just because they'd go nicely next to my Topps Baseball Card Collection.

Is there gonna be a Rudy Guilliani Card??
I wonder will they have their career stats like the real cards.
I suppose George Bush could have...
Career Executions: 150+

Victor

My B-52 beats your guy with an AK-47 in a cave?????????

b20uvkft6m5xwg

yeh but my vile of anthrax beats your daisy cutter

Typedef

Hmm true but,

My Apache attack helicopter beats your 9 year-old palestinian boy, I mean 9 year - old palestinian terrorist.

Boston

McCarthy was a hero, damn those commy scum. :rolleyes:

Baz_

Originally posted by Typedef
Hmm true but,

My Apache attack helicopter beats your 9 year-old palestinian boy, I mean 9 year - old palestinian terrorist.

ROFLMBO, aww man you're so cynical you're hilarious lol...

Boston

Originally posted by Typedef
Hmm true but,

My Apache attack helicopter beats your 9 year-old palestinian boy, I mean 9 year - old palestinian terrorist.

yea..but my palestine boys got stones...oouuuu i could take someones eye out ouuuuu

Gargoyle

My suicide bomber, oops, I meant freedom fighter, beats your children in an pizza parlour.

jbkenn

This shower of w*****s have a bubble gum factory in Cork

jbkenn

Typedef

Oh and here is the enitre footage of the benovalent Israeli army defending the local Israeli chip shop on Palestinian land. Hey but realise the Israeli's get money from the benovalent Americans because Israel is a "democracy" and "democracies" should be protected from terrorists like above link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/950000/video/_952600_shooting2_vi.ram

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Typedef


Oh and here is the enitre footage of the benovalent Israeli army defending the local Israeli chip shop on Palestinian land. Hey but realise the Israeli's get money from the benovalent Americans because Israel is a "democracy" and "democracies" should be protected from terrorists like above link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/950000/video/_952600_shooting2_vi.ram

Please spare us the melodrama Typeduf. I fail to see how blowing up a bunch of teenagers in a disco is going to do anything for Hamas's cause.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why at Camp David, Arafat turned down an offer from Barak that would have given the Palestinians more than 90 percent of Arab territory occupied by Israel in 1967, recognition of a Palestinian state and partial control of Jerusalem. Consequently, the current intifada that you so adore began just when a deal for peace could have been reached.

Typedef

First off I don't adore nor condone any kind of violence I never said I did, however if Israel can use force to advance it's political agenda (ie assisinating Palestinian politicians Israel brands as terrorists) then the same justification must be extended to killings carried out by the Palestinians, many would call Ariel Sharon a war criminal, he may stand trial for War Crimes in Belgium and therefore if Yassir Arafat branded Ariel Sharon a "terrorist" or "war ciminal" it would be legitimate for him to be assisinated, by that logic, see where I'm going? Also it must be said that the United States has vetoed 19 seperate UN resolutions regarding Israel and it is with this support, momentum and impetus that Israel has legitimised and exponenciated state terrorism for the last 40 years. The United States shold be exposed for the hypocritical sham of a state it is. It is a modern day Empire, sure it has "democracy" as window dressing, but scratch the surface of the USA's foreign policy and you have to laugh when you hear fools like George Bush call the US the "land of the free" and drone on about how people are equal. What a load of it. If the US believed in any of the principals of freedom and equality it espouses, there is no way in hell it would support Israel and send it 5 billion dollars + a year for the 40 last years, if fact the US is a bastion of propaganda and industrial self-hypocracy. Come on how may governments has the CIA & or US military overthrown in the last 25 years? 10, 20, 30? Yeah sure every one is free in the US , right, and everone else in the world is free to do as the US says.

Quite simply 100% of the land should be given back not however much Israel feels it should give back, it was not theirs to take and it is wrong to keep it, especially under the threat of more occupation and colonization.

Here is a link
http://www.mediamonitors.net/pnt1.html

But if I may quote from the article.

For a true and lasting peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, there must be two viable and independent states living as equal neighbors. Israel's Camp David proposal, which was never set forth in writing, denied the Palestinian state viability and independence by dividing Palestinian territory into four separate cantons entirely surrounded, and therefore controlled, by Israel. The Camp David proposal also denied Palestinians control over their own borders, airspace and water resources while legitimizing and expanding illegal Israeli colonies in Palestinian territory. Israel's Camp David proposal presented a 're-packaging' of military occupation, not an end to military occupation

Israel sought to annex almost 9% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories and in exchange offered only 1% of Israel's own territory.

In no way, shape or form can anyone seriously think that annexation by war is a legitimate way for a state to behave. A peace must be negotiated not dictated, if you accept dictat, you legitimize the use of force for political ends ie, allowing Israel to annex territory by force then you legitimise the use of force to resist such action.

Israel seeks broad concessions from the Palestinians: it wants to annex Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem; obtain rights to Palestinian water resources in the West Bank; maintain military locations on Palestinian soil; and deny the Palestinian refugees' their right of return. Israel has not offered a single concession involving its own territory and rights.

I find this absurd, Israel invades and effectively annexs Palestinian land , supported by the Americans who have vetoed 19 seperate UN resolutions and been the principal architects of over 36 resolutions being knocked on the head(inclusive) and yet some people seem to think that this conflict is the fault of the Palestinians.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Typedef
Quite simply 100% of the land should be given back not however much Israel feels it should give back, it was not theirs to take and it is wrong to keep it, especially under the threat of more occupation and colonization.

Lets not forget that we're talking about land Israel annexed when they were attacked first, ok?

If you want to use that logic, hell, lets just give all the land in Europe back to the Italians. Land changes hands in war; that's just the way it is Typedef. And, if you really want to nitpick, at least realize that the Jewish claim to that land actually predates the Islamic religion.

That deal was the best Arafat could have hoped for, and his refusal to accept it shows that he doesn't really want peace at all IMO. If the PLO refuse to prevent terrorists from attacking Israel, and Israel can prevent said actions, they have a right, indeed a duty, to do so.

Additionally, yes, Israel is the only democracy in the region, which is why is is supported by the US. However, if the US had not sold any military aid to Israel, Eygpt and Syria would have conquered Israel and slaughtered the Jews living there years ago. Again, the military aid stems from the fact that the climate in the M.E. is such that if Israel did not have superior US military technology, they would long ago have been destroyed by their neighbors who for a very long time refused to recognise them as a legitimate state at all.

Hobbes

if you really want to nitpick, at least realize that the Jewish claim to that land actually predates the Islamic religion.

Yes shame on those evil muslims being on Iserals land before they got there.

Maybe my bible studies is out but didn't the jewish people have claim by god and that is their basis for invading? Come to think of it god even goes as far as to say "Kill the women and children" and "Plunder everything of theirs". I guess god must of been pissed that day.


That deal was the best Arafat could have hoped for,

Sometimes the best you can hope for doesn't mean it is the best for you or your people. If you bothered to read Typedefs quotes you would see that it was anything but a fair treaty. If I was in Arafats place I would of told them to go fuk themselves. Yet somehow you believe that he must kowtow and live in servitude?

I think it was mentioned here before but Arafat is the lid on the pandoras box. I pity the day someone actually tries to remove him or steps down.

Israel is the only democracy in the region,

Sorry but your wrong about that. I know someone mentioned this before and a number of other countries where listed as a democracy too. We are to believe that Democracy is a good thing? Then why is Bush fuking up the US at the moment.

if Israel did not have superior US military technology, they would long ago have been destroyed by their neighbors who for a very long time refused to recognise them as a legitimate state at all.

If they didn't have superior US military technology and funding by the US (a massive amount btw) then prehaps the US wouldn't of been a target. Ever think of that?

From what I have read the US has funded Iseral against the wishes of the UN and shot down UN charters which would of helped stabilize the area.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Hobbes

If they didn't have superior US military technology and funding by the US (a massive amount btw) then prehaps the US wouldn't of been a target. Ever think of that?

From what I have read the US has funded Iseral against the wishes of the UN and shot down UN charters which would of helped stabilize the area.

So we should have sacraficed all the Jews because it would make us less of a target? Hmm. Seems like the Europeans tried that some 50 odd years ago.

bonkey

Originally posted by Gargoyle
So we should have sacraficed all the Jews because it would make us less of a target?

Oh - here we go again....the old ludicrous "two option" argument. It reads like a broken record, and yet you seem to miss the inherent flaws in these arguments.

First of all, every situation in modern politics has more than two solutions. The criticism of American spending billions on Israel in foreign aid (mostly militaristic in nature) is generally polarised by the two sides into "you shouldnt be doing it" vs "if we didnt do it, Israel would cease to exist". Did it ever occur to you that there are other options?

What about the possibility of simply formally extending a "defense treaty" to Israel. Dont give them guns, but offer to come to their aid should they be invaded by a foreign nation? I'm sure their own military would be capable of handling small, internal issues, while the nation retained the might of the US behind them to deter their neighbours from stomping over them?

This is just one of countless possible solutions, so while you can pick flaws in it, you cannot say that there are only the two solutions - neither of which, by the way, are particularly attractive.

I also note with interest the indignation Israel expressed at Dubya coming out and saying (October sometime?) that the US wanted to see a Palestinian state, co-existing peacefully with Israel. How can a nation be indignant at their benefactor saying that they want peace with their neighbours. Israel does not want peace with Palestine. it wants to get rid of it...

jc

Victor

Originally posted by Gargoyle
Additionally, yes, Israel is the only democracy in the region, which is why is is supported by the US.

And what about Egypt, Turkey, Cyprus, Lebanon and Iran. Roughly on the level of democracy in the North America and Europe. None is perfect, I admit all have questions over them.

Let us say .....

Turkey ~= Mexico (democratic government, modernising economy, violent problems with minorities, strong concerns on human rights)

Iran ~= UK (democratic government, non-executive president for life, generally stable)

Egypt ~= USA (limited choice with restricted number of political parties, violent internal dissent, concerns about quality of life for urban poor)

Lebanon ~= Peurto Rico (nominal democracy, substantial military control by neighbour(s))

There are other countries in the region who are modernising and or are already moderate, e.g. Tunisia while it isn't open politically, would be considered stable and relatively benevolent to it's citizens.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html
http://www.billionairesforbushorgore.com/platform/

For any country to claim it has a monopoly on democracy would be folly.

Hobbes

So we should have sacraficed all the Jews because it would make us less of a target?

People who see in Black and White no nothing of a rainbow. (or something like that)

Hmm. Seems like the Europeans tried that some 50 odd years ago.

Well actually it was the Nazi's. Notice I didn't say Germans because most of the actions where the cause of a small group of people and not the population of the whole (most Germans were told that the Jewish people were relocated to another country). Much like what is happening in the US now.

Winning Hand

Originally posted by Gargoyle
And, if you really want to nitpick, at least realize that the Jewish claim to that land actually predates the Islamic religion.

Indeed, as hobbes pointed out one of the biggest raison d-etre for the jews was that they were outcasts, who slaughtered everyone for their own homeland. While we're at it, why not give Israel (Canaan) to the egyptians, or better still the syrians, or mesopotamians, or hitties, jebusites....... The jews were far from the first people to visit that region of the world. All 3 religions who hold jerusalem sacred have found others in possession of said city before them. Biblically it is thought thats why Yameh consistently chose the second sons of Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob.

Different thread different time ill discuss this further, for now Ill play my trump card.

*17Yr old Protestant with a pipe bomb with an all too short fuse*