Dail Eireann has too many TD's !!

gandalf

Right I think its time to start talking about domestic politics a little more on this board.

One idea or thought thats been knocking around my head for a while now is the state of the Irish Government or lack of a decent one. Many decisions which are for the benefit of the country are been held up or scrapped because of whats called "parish pump" politics, especially when the government is a minority one and depending on dubious "independents". I have been thinking about ways to combat this.

In my opinion we have too many TD's for a country of our size. According to the government site we have one TD per 20000/30000 people I feel that this should be upped to approx 50000 people. Hopefully this will make the Irish electorate think about the way they use their vote and allow them to make sure that they elect a capable representative based on their ability and not the fact that "Daddy had the seat and handed it down to me" or "We can't get ITV or Channel4".

With this in mind I looked into the currect situation where we have 166 TD's and using CSO data from 1996 I have worked out
the TD allocation for the following areas based on population. I believe that the current locations for constituencies should be changed to the following.

Leinster
Area Population No. Of TD's
Carlow 41,616 1
Dublin Co. Borough 481,854 10
Dun-Laoghaire Rathdown 189,999 4
Fingal 167,683 3
South Dublin 218,728 4
Kildare 134,992 3
Kilkenny 75,336 2
Laois 52,945 1
Longford 30,166 1
Louth 92,166 2
Meath 109,732 2
Offaly 59,117 1
Westmeath 63,314 1
Wexford 104,371 2
Wicklow 102,683 2


Munster
Area Population No. Of TD's
Clare 94,006 2
Cork Co. Borough 127,187 3
Cork County 293,323 6
Kerry 126,130 3
Limerick Co. Borough 52,039 1
Limerick County 113,003 2
Tipperary N.R. 58,021 1
Tipperary S.R. 75,514 2
Waterford Co. Borough 42,540 1
Waterford County 51,140 1

Connacht
Area Population No. Of TD's
Galway Co. Borough 57,241 1
Galway County 131,613 3
Leitrim 25,057 1
Mayo 111,524 2
Roscommon 51,975 1
Sligo 55,821 1

Ulster (Irish Rep)
Area Population No. Of TD's
Cavan 52,944 1
Donegal 129,994 3
Monaghan 51,313 1


This brings the total down to 75 which I believe is a more manageable number for a National Goverment in a country of our
size. It also will save us a fair bit per year in TD's Salaries, I believe that their current salary is £55,000pa, that means we would save £5,005,000 per year, then factor in the pensions etc after that.

So what do you lot think then ?

Gandalf.

Stats etc. taken from
http://www.irlgov.ie/oireachtas
www.cso.ie

Victor

This works better:

[b]Leinster
Area			Population	 No. Of TD's[/B]
Carlow			41,616		1
Dublin Co. Borough	481,854		10
Dun-Laoghaire Rathdown	189,999		4
Fingal			167,683		3
South Dublin 		218,728		4
Kildare			134,992		3
Kilkenny		75,336		2
Laois			52,945		1
Longford		30,166		1
Louth			92,166		2
Meath			109,732		2
Offaly			59,117		1
Westmeath		63,314		1
Wexford			104,371		2
Wicklow			102,683		2
					

[B]Munster
Area			Population	No. Of TD's[/B]
Clare			94,006		2	
Cork Co. Borough	127,187		3
Cork County		293,323		6
Kerry			126,130		3
Limerick Co. Borough	52,039		1
Limerick County		113,003		2
Tipperary N.R.		58,021		1
Tipperary S.R.		75,514		2
Waterford Co. Borough	42,540		1
Waterford County	51,140		1
					
[B]Connacht
Area			Population	No. Of TD's[/B]
Galway Co. Borough	57,241		1
Galway County		131,613		3
Leitrim			25,057		1
Mayo			111,524		2
Roscommon		51,975		1
Sligo			55,821		1
					
[B]Ulster (Irish Rep)
Area			Population	No. Of TD's[/B]
Cavan			52,944		1
Donegal			129,994		3
Monaghan		51,313		1

I can understand your concept (in the UK its about one MP per 100,000), but it would be unfair to do it like the above. Assuming a first past the post and / or PRSTV system, Fianna Fail would win most of the one-seat constituencies, half of the seats in the 2-seaters and two thirds of the seats in the 3-seaters, and so on. Only your 6 and 10-seater would be fair. You would need to set up a number to balanced constituencies similar to what we have at the moment.

75 might be too few. By my reckoning FF would have 45 of 75 seats. Not conducive to democracy.

No. of seats	1	2	3	4	6	10	Total
Total		15	18	18	8	6	10	75
FF		13	9	12	4	3	4	45

It would be useful to reduce the number of TDs to circa 100 and make a number (say, 50%) of Senators elected by popular vote.

However, you would need to create a balance at local level. Currently, local authorities vary between 5,000 and 500,000 inhabitants. This needs to be readjusted to create more representative local authorities of 50,000 - 60,000 inhabitants (considered the ideal), with a better structure of regional authorities with populations of 400,000 - 600,000. Hopefully creating a balance of local representation and efficiency.

Boston

thats a useless idea, for starters tds dont give a damn about people who elect them, even less if theres 20000 more to chose from.

your vote means little as it is without deluting it, you really think "people" (as if your better then those fools) will take more time to decide who they vote for

and the current situation is good, would you rather a goverment that would steam roll any bill it wanted like in england. the indies have done alot of me personally by having goverments by the balls in the past and long may it continue.

gandalf

Boston what exactly have the independents done for you. I can off the top of my head name one important piece of legislation that they stopped in its tracks. The Government tried to stop dual mandate thats a TD thats also a Counciller, but because some of the independents fell into this catagory they put a gun to the Governments head and that was dropped. How the hell can you adequately represent issues locally and nationally properly, surely one if not both are full time jobs. This also counts for MEP's as well.

As regards having larger catchment areas of voters, it would elimate the effect of sure doesn't "So and So" come from the area votes. PR should stay in place, maybe its an idea to combine two smaller 1 seaters into one of 2, and maybe reduce that 10 seater in Dublin to two 5 seaters one Northside and one Southside.

More power should be given to Local Authorities for local issues and let the Dail handle the issues that effect us Nationally.

I agree with Victor the local authorities need to be sorted as well. Having some serving a small number of people and other serving half a million is also unintelligent.

Gandalf.

mike65

There are without question too many TDs' but who the hell
among them is going to vote themselves out of a job?

None of them!

My own thought on numbers is to have twice as many
consituances but only 1 TD per area, to be elected by
PR, as was noted in above posts Waterford where I live
should have 2 areas - city and county. The same would apply
in other areas such as Kilkenny, where a town or city
has a population to justify its own seat which can then
have its own ethos reflected by its TD.

I mention this because under current system the hicks can end up
effectivly deciding all the TDs' leaving the city folk feeling
under-represented, while at the same time the the TDs' for a
constituancy could all be from the city and so not
reflect rural concerns.

Anyway thsats my twoeurocents worth.

Mike.

JustHalf

I have this idea, not fully thought out yet.

Executive Council of Ministers:
A group of no more than 8 ministers, elected by proportional representation after each national poll by the Greater Assembly, with the powers to -
* Call emergency sessions of the Lesser and Greater Assemblies
* Engage directly in international affairs
* Speak on behalf of the Irish nation
* Schedule national polls for a specific date, within one month of the four-year anniversary of the previous national poll
A full-day meeting must be held at least three times a week, to be attended by all members. Absenteeism is not accepted.

Lesser Assembly
A group consisting of the Executive Council and other ministers, to make up the number of approximately 20% of that of the Greater Assembly. Ministers are elected to these positions by proportional representation by the Greater Assembly. They have the power to -
* Draft and approve Bills, to be processed by the Greater Assemby
* Take part in sub-committees formed for a specific purpose by the Executive Council or Lesser Assembly
* Call for referenda, by a simple majority vote
* Call for the re-election of the Executive Council, by a simple majority vote
A full-day session must be held at least twice a week, to be attended by all members. Absenteeism is not accepted.

Greater Assembly
A group selected by the people of the nation, by way of a national poll or bi-election, by proportional representation. This body would have the powers to-
* Pass Bills approved by the Lesser Assembly into law
* Call for referenda, by a two-thirds majority vote
* Call for the re-election of the Lesser Assembly, by a simple majority vote
A full-day session must be held at least once week, to be attended by all members. Absenteeism is not accepted.

Red Moose

Originally posted by Victor
This works better:


75 might be too few. By my reckoning FF would have 45 of 75 seats. Not conducive to democracy.

Surely that *is* democracy - if the party get's the majority of votes, and therefore seats, it wins.

I hate this coalition crap because nothing ever gets done except a bunch of people arguing because no one government goal is OK with the other coalition member;s, so it all goes to **** (and seeing the health, transport, education & communications, heck just about every ministry, of this country go to hell is evidence that our government is basically a polite anarchy).

I have nothing against letting whoever wants to try and get elected, but the need of the majority being the single winner *is* democracy, where the losers are then free to complain and try and win people over the next time.

As it stands I wouldn't mind a simple FF-only government, without any of the socialist addendums to the Dail that sour ambition for those who want to earn money.

If it was 1 per 50,000, and FF get in because the majority of people vote that way, then regardless of what you personally want, it *is* democracy.

How can you say it isn't? I can't understand why you say if that was they way FF would win by majority - christ isn't that the point?

Or would it be better if both Bush AND Gore got elected and had a coalition government? Man that would be funny........

OK, like so - if the limit on government was shortened, they would have less time to **** around, and if they screwed up, another party could try and get elected - by majority - and the people could focus on what specific governments were good, or bad, etc., . Coalitions are not conducive to democracy because probably again next year they'll all get elected once again and do the same **** job and nothing will get done again by the same people in the same roles.....never changing because there's a lack of competition even in politics in this country (not just telecoms !).

SO we end up with one constant government that never ever ever has learned from it's mistakes because it ...never had to....they all just get elected again and again......

sceptre

I still like the idea touted in one Yes Prime Minister ep of having local elected councillors to represent 200 or maybe 500 people. These councillors elect the next level from their number, they elect the next and so on.

Assuming 1.5 million voters:

250 people elect their councillor (6000 of these for local/regional government).

These 6000 elect the next level (assuming same 1/250 ratio)

Leaves us with a government of 24

Advantage - because every group would be in personal contact with the person representingn them.

Disadvantage - it would take out the current party system (or is that an advantage?)


Good suggestions above though. They're not going to reduce the number of Tds any time soon - far too many people would feel they'd be voting themselves out of a job rather than the off-chance that we might do it.

sceptre

Originally posted by Red Moose

Or would it be better if both Bush AND Gore got elected and had a coalition government? Man that would be funny........

It would have been funny if Cheney had to regard tennessee or wherever it was as his home state (as well as texas) as he used live in both states.

it was a close-run thing in any case with both of them having declared texas residency

Could have ended up with a Republican pres and Democratic vice-pres.

Now that I would have laughed at for four years (or at least until the eventual assassination of one of them).

Victor

Originally posted by Victor
75 might be too few. By my reckoning FF would have 45 of 75 seats. Not conducive to democracy.

Originally posted by Red Moose
Surely that *is* democracy - if the party get's the majority of votes, and therefore seats, it wins.

But FF has rarely if ever got a majority of the votes. If they held 60% of seats, you might as well declare the FF leader dictator for life, quite simply because he could never, ever be challenged on anything. Now remember what happens when politicians feel they are secure?

Originally posted by Red Moose
I hate this coalition crap because nothing ever gets done except a bunch of people arguing because no one government goal is OK with the other coalition member;s, so it all goes to **** (and seeing the health, transport, education & communications, heck just about every ministry, of this country go to hell is evidence that our government is basically a polite anarchy).[/B]

Do you really trust FF in a maority government?

Originally posted by Red Moose
SO we end up with one constant government that never ever ever has learned from it's mistakes because it ...never had to....they all just get elected again and again...... [/B]

My point exactly.

Boston

Originally posted by gandalf
Boston what exactly have the independents done for you. I can off the top of my head name one important piece of legislation that they stopped in its tracks. The Government tried to stop dual mandate thats a TD thats also a Counciller, but because some of the independents fell into this catagory they put a gun to the Governments head and that was dropped. How the hell can you adequately represent issues locally and nationally properly, surely one if not both are full time jobs. This also counts for MEP's as well.

ill agree they have pissed me off with the abortion thing, i feel its been done to much, and having endless debates on the ****ing subject is pointless, the people spoke they spoke again and they spoke again. this is what the communication bill was droped for.

recent events and see labour in action, makes we want to switch to them, id love to see a labour - FF goverment, Id also love to see bertie losse his seat, which is the one im in to either labour or sinn fein

Red Moose

It's more that if FF were to win straight, with a majority, and they sucked, then everybody who voted for them would have to admit "they sucked".

BUt the way it stands, exactly who is to blame? No particular party, so the FF fans will vote FF again, believing FF were good, same for the other parties.

By forcing one party into a majority, they can be analysed easily, and the public will be focussed on them alone, to see them for good or bad. It would also increase the accountability by a vast margin - if they really were a shower of idiots *cough*Tainaiste *cough* - it would be obvious, and I wouldn't vote for them again.

It's the fact that basically it's a collective mess - and this is a government made up of most of the parties. If FG got a majority, won, and sucked for 7 years or whatever, then next time people would know that FG sucked. It's sort of like a FUD campaign, but with every party participating in each other's FUD, resulting in no one party ever getting it's objectives met, so who do we trust? No-one.....and it's the same over and over again.

I would like to think next May or whenever the election is on, that say this FF government sucked, I'm voting Labour. BUt whatever happens, both will get elected anyway in the coalition (like it won't happen).

No focus - so the public can't see once and for all what party is **** and what isn't. Of course, that's probably because they are all ****, but there you go. Irony is sometimes so....ironic.....:)

gandalf

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»


ill agree they have pissed me off with the abortion thing, i feel its been done to much, and having endless debates on the ****ing subject is pointless, the people spoke they spoke again and they spoke again. this is what the communication bill was droped for.

recent events and see labour in action, makes we want to switch to them, id love to see a labour - FF goverment, Id also love to see bertie losse his seat, which is the one im in to either labour or sinn fein

Yep they are one of the main reasons we're having an abortion referendum. It is a waste of taxpayers money and a waste of valuable debating time.

BTW I think Red Moose has a good point. If we did have one party in majority then if they made a mess of things people would know who to blame. The way it is now FF will blame the PD's, the PD's will blame the Independents and the Independents will go great we still have ITV & Channel 4 !!!

Gandalf.