XP ... is it worth it?

DeVore

I'm going to have to upgrade to XP and generally upgrade my aging 450. I figure best to do them all together.

Anyone got any reports FROM FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE of what XP is like? I've seen it and it looks all Mac-cy (I know that can be changed).

Is it any good?

DeV.

koneko

I have it, it's pretty swank. I'm not a big Microsoft fan, but XP is pretty good alright (better than I thought it would be, ha).

Desktop-wise, you can pick use the new XP style (rounded corners everywhere), or the standard Windows one, lots of stuff included. One of my faves is where I get a message saying "A network cable is unplugged", so I don't spend an hour trying to figure out why my network won't work, when it's just a simple cable :P

It seemed to increase my whole PC performance (graphics/gaming mainly), but doesn't for everyone.

Occidental

If you're coming from the world of 98 or Me, then stability is the big bonus.

Been running Pro for a few weeks on a number of PIII and P4 workstations. Most of these had come from the world of 98, Me and NT4. I've had a few apps that fall over, mostly 5 years and older, but all without taking the system with them. McAfee and print queues (normally a good test) have also run without any problems.

On the looks side, it's a more feely carey type of Windows than we're used to with lots of little bits thrown in for graphics, multimedia etc. Some of the menus and taskbars have been arsed around again, but still lead to roughly the same places.

XP Home is very much the same as the Pro version, with the one huge difference being that XP Home will not log on to a domain(replacement for 98 and Me my arse!).

The pricing from Microsoft is taking the p!ss somewhat, especially for all the companies who will be forced to buy XP Pro rather than home.

If you're going to upgrade I would say do it for the stability and not the gimics.

Dr. Loon

Yeah...I got it, and I like it....seems to run alot faster generally. Althuogh I had problems with my DVD performance slowing down, but I can sort that.... all round I reckon it's fairly slick.

Boston

i find it buggy, you should probably wait awhile.
personaly i like win2k pro much more, its alot more stable, and i like small res which seems to be a problem in Xp

Shinji

If you're running a 9x core OS, then upgrading to XP is something which absolutely makes sense; in fact, unless there's an issue with old hardware support, I'd do it right away on any system that meets base spec.

The additional stability is massively helpful, and MS have managed the impressive feat of simultaneously dumbing the OS down in order to make it more friendly for people who just want a PC that works, and also making the under-the-bonnet workings of the PC more accessible to those who want to fiddle around.

Initially I advised people running 2k to hold back from installing XP, since there seemed to be few benefits, but I can't see any good reason now for them not to upgrade. It's 2k Version 2 for all intents and purposes, and the addition of some really nice stuff (like the new terminal services system) makes the upgrade well worth it. I've yet to find any major bugs and the system is significantly more stable than any Linux workstation environment I've ever used.

Caveat: it doesn't like ABIT boards with onboard Highpoint RAID controllers.

FWIW, the new interface can be turned off entirely, giving you vanilla Windows once again. Personally I stick to a combination of old and new - I prefer the old Start menu and so on, but the new file folders work nicely for me.

Shiminay

My brother just got a new PC with it on board and I only had a brief fling with it. I bumped the res up and it still looked huge and that annoys me (cause I like my 1600X1200), but games ran rather nicely on it.

It appears to like the networking (mini LAN in the house) - picked up the network without my having to do any work at all, but I want to look further into it and see what's what.

Overall, I'd say it'll do well for them. Stability is the key to it.

Kairo

Originally posted by Shinji

Caveat: it doesn't like ABIT boards with onboard Highpoint RAID controllers.

ACK! And what the fúck do you think I'm getting? An Abit board with RAID and Windows XP.

Typical. :mad:

yellum

They seemed to have rejigged the code because the OS runs faster than 2K which is a nice little bonus.

The UI is only okay but at least you can modify it. Definetly great for the non techy OS users, makes life easier for them and the OS protects itself from them doing dumb things to it.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Shinji

Caveat: it doesn't like ABIT boards with onboard Highpoint RAID controllers.

Yikes, can you be more specific?

Hobbes

Originally posted by yellum
They seemed to have rejigged the code because the OS runs faster than 2K which is a nice little bonus.

Erm from the stats I've seen it really doesn't run that much faster at all and doesn't it need more memory then W2K Pro?

Personally I prefer W2K Pro to XP. Feels a lot better to me and also your not locking yourself into the stuff MS cripples you on.

Shinji

Sure. As far as I recall, it's the Abit KT7A-RAID (and presumably applies also to the KG7A-RAID) which has the trouble - the OS simply will not install, and makes all manner of whining error messages.

There are two solutions. The first is to download the latest Highpoint RAID drivers, put 'em on a floppy, and when the install process asks for "Third Party SCSI or RAID drivers", insert the floppy and hit F6. This will install compliant drivers and the XP install process will work fine.

The other option, which is the one I used when installing on a machine here during the week, is to move the drives off the RAID controller back onto the standard IDE onboard controller, disable the RAID controller in the BIOS, and once XP is installed, re-enable the RAID controller in the BIOS, boot and install the latest Highpoint drivers.


It's worth noting that this does not apply to PCI card Highpoint controllers such as the ABIT Hot Rod Pro card, which work perfectly happily with Windows XP. That's what I'm personally working with on my main system and it hasn't had a bother.

Shinji

Feels a lot better to me and also your not locking yourself into the stuff MS cripples you on.

The look and feel can be entirely reverted back to the 2k Pro way of doing things. The main tip is to disable the XP window borders (in Display Properties) and disable the Welcome Screen (in the Users subsection of Control Panel) which gives you back the traditional login screen and the traditional (and more useful) CTRL-ALT-DEL menu, including the Lock Workstation option.


Regarding the stuff MS cripples you on, I've yet to find any of this frankly. Windows Messenger is pre-installed; I don't mind this because I use it anyway (it rocks) and you can uninstall it easily.

The CD burning thing is silly, a single ASPI patch fixes that; this also applies to ripping CDs to MP3s.

The DIVX thing was cracked in minutes once the DIVX dudes got their hands on WinXP, and DivX 4 is now fully XP compliant.

Mmm, what else... Windows Media Player is actually a lot more stable, reliable and speedy than it was under 2k. And you can still install third party players if you wish.

If you're perfectly happy with 2kPro, then there's no particular reason to upgrade of course. I personally like the speed boost, certain aspects of the new look and feel, the better compatability with certain hardware and, most importantly, the overhauled terminal services. Using a PC sitting at home on my cablemodem over a laptop from a train outside Waterloo station over an HSCD link simply rocks

yellum

Originally posted by Hobbes


Erm from the stats I've seen it really doesn't run that much faster at all and doesn't it need more memory then W2K Pro?

Well I already had lots of memory anyway and met the requirements. From running it on my work machine I found it runs faster, I don't know why ...

Cake Fiend

I've been dual-booting 2K Pro and XP Pro for a few months now and 2K will be going out the window fairly soon. Basically I haven't come across anything I can't do under XP that I can under 2K, and I haven't booted 2K since I installed XP. If you're currently running 2k and planning to pay for XP however, I don't see any major reason to upgrade if you're happy with 2K. If you're on 9x or ME (get with the times ) then stability and compatibility are good enough reasons.

I see XP as 2K with bits and bobs added in, most notably increased general compatibility (in my experience) with older programs. This is important to me as I play a lot of old games and emulators, some of which don't work well or at all under 2K, but can be coaxed into running on XP by changing compatibility modes. As for Media Player, bleh, I still use 6.4

I use an ABIT BX133 RAID with onboard Highpoint controller and I've yet to have any problems, but that could be because of the drivers already having been installed under 2K.

Boston

the Highpoint controller wont have any problems under windows Xp, it seems that theres excellent raid support in Xp, saves allot of hassel

amp

Weh, Win XP is to Win 2k what Win ME was to Win 98.

The version number tells the truth: Win XP is 5.1. I'll wait till they release v6 thanks.

corkey

Hi does Xp work with AmD CPU OK ? :rolleyes:

7Day Theory

[insert opinion]im suprised that anything runs on an AMD cpu, considering how cheaply they are made and how hot they run.[/insert opinion]


If its an AMD Athlon or Duron then you will be ok.

Shinji

Works perfectly fine on an AMD processor.

[insert opinion]That would be the AMD processors which run significantly faster than the much more expensive Intel equivalents, and which have absolutely no heating problems whatsoever as long as you have the common sense to invest in a decent heatsink and thermal paste. [/insert opinion]

7Day Theory

---->points Shinji to a video which he may have seen, but clearly shows which processor is made to a much higher standard.

[warning]AMD ownners,this will scare the cr@p out of you and to Intel owners, this instill some confidence in you[/warning]

Video is here ..only 9MB.

Cake Fiend

Don't give me that crap, I for one have the sense to attach an appropriate heatsink properly and although I generally use Intel chips, those videos are not going to deter me from buying AMD chips.

[edit] Think I might have come across as a bit aggro with that comment, I was a tad drunken at the time But anyone who knows what they're doing shouldn't be in much danger of frying their chip. [/edit]

7Day Theory

Originally posted by Sico

Please try to ensure you have something resembling a clue of what you're talking about before posting in future :rolleyes:

I really did think that the video would only reinforce my point, and that being "Intel chips are made to a higher standard than AMD chips".


Attaching a quality heatsink and fan are default measures when installing any chip, but should the worst happen (ie) the heat sink become detatched from the chip which chip would you rather in your pride and joy?

Quoted From: THG It is no rare occasion that the processor heat sink fell off while the system was in transport. <edit> The result is a black screen when the system is started for the fist time

And then theres AMD specific heat sink problems:

Quoted From: THG large heat sinks have one big problem however. They are often extremely heavy as well. If the mounting mechanism for those devices is not very sturdy, the heavy heat sink can still fall off because the mounting mechanism breaks off.

After a poor game of CS or HL have you ever accidently booted the PC?

Personally i would go for Intel time after time, and that was before watching this video, but im not a performance nut, i would be satisfied with the slower P4, but thats me.

Koopa

yeah i wish nvidia had used the intel auto shutoff thing on their geforce chips.. its the sort of thing that youd think of as a "useless feature" when comparing chips , but its actually not useless (wouldnt stop me buying an amd chip, but only because theyre cheaper or whatever)

i had a creative labs geforce 256, worked fine for about 15 months, then the fan on the heatsink stopped working, for no apparent reason.. might have been caused by dust, since i run my pc with one side of the case open (heat), but anyway, it stopped working.. so, since the heatsink was basically just a (really thin and crap) sheet of metal without the fan, i took it off and attached an older heatsink i had lying about.. this worked fine for another 2 months, then one day while i was using the PC, the display went weird (horizontal shadows across the screen caused by text or graphics, overall brightness of screen really low, colours kindof 'wrong').. i tried rebooting, but it stayed the same, i could see the distortion even in the bios screen, so it was definitely a hardware thing

i checked the graphics card to make sure it was seated properly etc in the agp slot (it was), when i noticed the heatsink was kindof hanging off the card, not making proper contact with the chip.. so the card was obviously heat-damaged due to no heatsink - "that wouldnt happen with an intel chip pffffft"

Shinji

Two small points which I've made before, but deserve making again.

Firstly, you know that "Dr" that Tom puts in front of his name occasionally on that site? Guess what he's a doctor of. Go on, guess. Something nice and techy that qualifies him to comment in this way on hardware yeah? Nope, friend Tom is in fact a Doctor of Dentistry, and no more qualified to write about this stuff than any other fanboy on the net. His site is good, but in no way more trustworthy than any other amateur hardware site.

Second point is less general and pertains to the video you just linked to. Mention this vid to any AMD employee and they'll shake their heads sadly - it's been a really nasty PR blow for them, and it's entirely not their fault. The fact is that the motherboard which Tom tested the P4 on had P4 specific temperature control/shut-off devices onboard, and the AMD chip was tested on a board which doesn't actually support AMD's heat protection system. Not exactly a fair comparison eh? No wonder the Athlon comes off badly!

For what it's worth, the P4 chips actually run hotter than equivalent benchmark speed Athlons. The difference is that AMDs chips are designed to continue running regardless - they rely on the mobo to chop the power if it gets dangerously hot, and they have better heat tolerances anyway. P4 chips can drop their speed by as much as half in order to compensate for getting hot, and often do even when the heat is within safety limits.

My AthlonXP 1800+ runs comfortably at 50 degrees centigrade, I'm reliably informed that if I had a P4 at this temperature it'd be running at 75% of normal speed to compensate - without telling me, of course.

Koopa - yeah, Geforces are STUPIDLY hot. The air coming off the fan on the pre-production GF3 Ti500 I had for a while left a brown scorch mark on the paper sticker on the back of the network card directly opposite it - scary stuff, I'd hate to see what'd happen if the heatsink on that fell off.

Victor

I'll probably get smacked for this, but someone (who should know) was saying the XP security doesn't "like" downgrades to previous versions.

7Day Theory

Originally posted by Shinji


and no more qualified to write about this stuff than any other fanboy on the net. His site is good, but in no way more trustworthy than any other amateur hardware site.

Yeah sure Shinji, THG is an amateur site....
Its not my only source for information, i also use Sharky and Anandtech, but THG is the original, most popular, and just like microsoft is subject to haters because of this.

Originally posted by Shinji

Mention this vid to any AMD employee and they'll shake their heads sadly - it's been a really nasty PR blow for them, and it's entirely not their fault. The fact is that the motherboard which Tom tested the P4 on had P4 specific temperature control/shut-off devices onboard.

The P4 mobo security features were never needed because the chip is advanced enough to throttle itself back inorder to curb overheating, if this fails the chip is shut down, but that obviously did not happen as the system remained functional without the heatsink and when the heatsink was replaced the system returned to normal status.

Originally posted by Shinji

and the AMD chip was tested on a board which doesn't actually support AMD's heat protection system..

This Athlon using the 'Palomino'-core, has no thermal protection and is completely reliant on the motherboard saving it in an overheating situation but that did not work even though the motherboard had "Palomino thermal protection circuitry"

We used a specific Palomino motherboard, Siemens' D1289 with VIA's KT266 chipset. Siemens assured us that the thermal protection circuitry is definitely working on their motherboard

Originally posted by Shinji

For what it's worth, the P4 chips actually run hotter than equivalent benchmark speed Athlons.

I have never used an AMD chip, so hopefully this thread will let me know if im right or if you are...:)

Which Runs Hotter?


Maybe i will have to eat my words...:)

Boston

Shinji is right, when you take it that a 1.4ghz will out perform a p4 1.8ghz on most benchmarks

but with the developemnt of new DDR chipsets for the p4 and the new windows Xp, this may not be the case for much longer.

Shinji

even though the motherboard had "Palomino thermal protection circuitry"

This is the point that AMD dispute. They're absolutely adamant that the board he tested his chip on did not have this functionality enabled.



For what it's worth, this is a bloody stupid argument in the first place. I've been running Athlon processors for a very long time, and have had a wide selection of the little fellas in my machine, with a variety of cooling solutions (current one being a SuperOrb - I was watercooling for a while, and have had all manner of others) and have NEVER had a heatsink fall off, ever. The clips to hold these things onto a Socket A processor are exceptionally resilient and well-designed - it's hard enough to get the little feckers off when you want to, never mind have them fall off in transit or some such nonsense!

Same goes for pretty much everyone in my clan and anyone else I know who owns one of these. I probably know about a hundred people running Socket A athlon processors right now. I know of not a single one who has ever had their cooler become loose or fall off.

7Day Theory

ok argument ends...

sceptre

Shinji, you've just meade me think twice about getting a GeForce - last thing I want to do is leave the machine on while I go away for a weekend and come back with the damn flat on fire