bin Laden not the leader?

Gordon

I just saw the translation of the meeting of bin Laden with other people supporting his cause/friends of his cause. People obviously believe that he is now even more guilty of the badness that occured in America. The reasons for the intent of his actions are not at issue for me right now, the question for me right now is... authority.

I can't remember the exact transcribed words but as far as I remember, he said that he had no knowledge of when the [sep 11th] attack would take place. It was apparently an event that would be synchronised by the people that ordered it.

What I am saying is - Osama bin Laden was not the man that knew the precise date and time of the attack.... he was told to initiate it by a higher power.

Who is that power, who are the people behind Osama bin Laden??

Red Moose

Don't they operate in "cells" which are contact with each other but work independently. He may be the leader, and the idea to do it came from one of the other cells, and all he says is "that's cool, go right ahead".

Plus, they appear to be under the impression that if anyone above Bin Laden gives the orders, it's "Allah! Allah be praised". So it looks like Allah should be held responsible.

Spunog UIE

ah tis all a fake, a sham, a scapegoat. t'wasn't really the taliban at all. Just so the US can get someone and not be left hangin sayin we dunno who dun it, or in a more extream view just an excuse for the ol' us to get some more oil. would they scarfice all those ppl??????? i wouldn't put it past them esp. with bush.

and that video is so bloddy dodgy. the whole think stinks.

Gargoyle

Uh...ok Gideon. Sure.

bonkey

Originally posted by Gordon
I can't remember the exact transcribed words but as far as I remember, he said that he had no knowledge of when the [sep 11th] attack would take place. It was apparently an event that would be synchronised by the people that ordered it.

Interesting. I havent read the full transcript yet, but one of the things the media have made much of reporting is that bin Laden apparently admits to having turned on the radio shortly before the attacks commenced in order to catch the US reaction...which would be at odds with what you think you read.

I'm not saying you're wrong....just that both of us need to go read the full transcript.

While I'm not so sure about Gideon's standpoint, it is true that the video has already been declared a fake by a number of sources. This, of course, would be expected, whether it was true or not.

I just fave a few questions which make me uneasy about the tape. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it, but just that I'm not quite 100% comfortable with it.

1) The sound quality is alleged to be terrible, and this shows in the transmitted copy. However, given the close proximity of the camera to the subjects, this strikes me as somewhat unusual

2) Why was the video ever made? Why would bin Laden allow such a tape to be made, proving both that he was not in isolation and that he had something to do with the attacks, while he was still protesting his innocence

3) Why was the tape left "lying around" in some Al-Aqeda station? Unless this was a widely copied and distributed tape (no reports on the possibiloty of this), then it seems highly unusual that bin Laden would let someone tape him for no apparent reason, and then leave the tape in some Al Qaeda position.

4) Why did Al Qaeda not destroy the tape once the war began. What was so important about this tape that it was worth keeping around? I can understand keeping "terrorist manuals" and the other stuff which has been uncovered, but this tape seems such a liability....

5) I watched about 10 minutes of the tape last night on CNN. Either their transmission was arsed, or something is very dodgy. In most cases, due to the heavy beards, you cannot see peoples lips. However, at one point, the guy sitting to bin Laden's right (as you look at the picture) had his lips moving well out of synch with the transmitted sound - including long silences in the spoken record while his lips were still moving.

6) Again, in the piece I saw, the hand movements seem very unusual for the subject matter at hand. The gestures do not seem to match up with what is being said.

Also on CNN last night was some political analyst who asked the very question I've been wondering for a while - what do the US hope to gain from releasing the tape? It is nothing more than a public-relations move. But public relations to who? And why?

If we are to believe the media and most US-based US-supporting posters here, the US citizenship fully support this war, and dont care about the rest of the worlds opinion anyway. So exactly who is the public relations aimed at?

I seriously hope for everyone's sake that the tape is genuine. If it is ever found out that the video has been doctored in any way, or that the translation is significantly flawed in any way, then I would expect that such a scandal could potentially bring down a government. This is the only major reason I have for ignoring my "uneasiness" above. If the tape is doctored or faked in any way, it must have been done with the utmost care to make sure it could pass any test, because the implications of it failing such tests are horrendous.

jc

Gordon

Way to go off topic there Bonkey!

Originally posted by bonkey

bin Laden apparently admits to having turned on the radio shortly before the attacks commenced.

As far as I remember, he was written to be saying that he switched on the news after the event and he said to wait for more. I guess we need the full transcript... /me gets my bin Google search engine roaring.. vrrooooommmm

Gordon

OK my apologies, he knew about it a week in advance

"We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on. It was 5:30 p.m. our time. I was sitting with Dr.
Ahmad Abu-al-((Khair)). Immediately, we heard the news that a plane had hit the World Trade Center."

From http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2001/d20011213ubl.pdf

Hobbes

Originally posted by bonkey
I can understand keeping "terrorist manuals" and the other stuff which has been uncovered, but this tape seems such a liability..../B]

I would just like to correct this point. No terrorist manuals have been found by the US.

There was only one manual and it was found by the British in a home in England early last year.

Also if you read a bit of it, you'll notice they share the same opinion of that any evidence should be destroyed.

bonkey

Originally posted by Hobbes
I would just like to correct this point. No terrorist manuals have been found by the US.

A CNN reporter in Tora Bora last night was flicking through a manual in Arabic with the occasional engligh title like "Homemade Gas Nerve", "Mustard Gas" and (I think) "Saran Gas". When I say "manual" it was hand-written notes, but containing the same type of information a "real" manual would. Also included were methods to judge distances to tanks without range-finding equipment.

This doc was apparently found in one of the recently captured Al Qaeda training camps.

This is what I was referring to. I would call it a manual, as did the reporter.

As for the exact date of the attacks - its entirely probable that someone in the US was coordinating the flight schedules, and booking tickets, not someone in Afghanistan. bin Laden being informed fo the date indicates nothing significant.

For example, if Dubya were to tell the US armed forces tomorrow morning "invade country X", someone would still have to come back and tell him "we will cross the border in y days". bin Laden may have orchestrated the plan, given its go-ahead, and then been informed of the actual date when the plan would be carried out. I'm not saying he did, just that the wording of the transcript does not imply higher powers, just that bin Laden did not act alone (which we know anyway).

jc

seamus

It does all stink a tad rotten though imo. At one point, UBL(:)) is (according to the transcript) talking about the people who did it, but his body language(hand gestures) seem to convey that he is talking about the actual crash itself. Hmmm..
2fm, in their news yesterday had a few good unbiased lines about it, such as '...where Osama Bin Laden is apparently talking about the WTC attacks......the translation, which was supplied by the U.S. Government...'. IMO, it does have massive potential for conspiracy theorists. The US release this video, with their own translation of what people are saying. At many points, they write the words (..inaudible...) but as someone said, the camera was very close to them, and couldn't they just have turned up the volume/enhanced the sound Plus anyone who stepped up and challenged the US's translation would quickly be sat on, arrested, probed, humilated and thrown in jail while they decide if he is part of the terrorist group or not. I know I'd keep schtum

Sand

Originally posted by bonkey

or not.



2) Why was the video ever made? Why would bin Laden allow such a tape to be made, proving both that he was not in isolation and that he had something to do with the attacks, while he was still protesting his innocence

3) Why was the tape left "lying around" in some Al-Aqeda station? Unless this was a widely copied and distributed tape (no reports on the possibiloty of this), then it seems highly unusual that bin Laden would let someone tape him for no apparent reason, and then leave the tape in some Al Qaeda position.

4) Why did Al Qaeda not destroy the tape once the war began. What was so important about this tape that it was worth keeping around? I can understand keeping "terrorist manuals" and the other stuff which has been uncovered, but this tape seems such a liability....
jc

2)&4) Id imagine Bin Laden has no intention of ever standing trial himself, and once the war had started it didnt really matter if the US had proof or didnt- he was still going to wind up just as dead. As such he would have little concern for admitting his guilt for the attack. Id imagine from his point of view its very very hard to keep mum on what must be the crowning point of his sick career. He appears to have made many videos previous to this, so i can only assume he didnt mind being videoed again.

3) The Taliban (and their Al-Qaeda buddies) were routed extremely quickly. They left in a huge hurry. Id imagine their greatest priority, with bombs falling and opposition fighters on the warpath, was not some video made weeks ago, and maybe stored away in some forgotten corner.

yankinlk

ahhhh, the conspiracy theorists = those people that hide under rocks, never get out, fantasize about how smart they are.

I recon you guys are correct, the tape is fake. Infact the whole war is a sham. In fact, its a wellknown fact those two towers were never hit in the first place, they were dismantled because the rent was too high...no one worked their after the stock market crashed anyway.

Celt

Originally posted by yankinlk
ahhhh, the conspiracy theorists = those people that hide under rocks, never get out, fantasize about how smart they are.

I recon you guys are correct, the tape is fake. Infact the whole war is a sham. In fact, its a wellknown fact those two towers were never hit in the first place, they were dismantled because the rent was too high...no one worked their after the stock market crashed anyway.

*sigh*
Your sarcasm and wit is too intelligent for us "conspiracy theorists".