Israel v Palestine - 2 questions

bonkey

A thought occurred to me recently, which I have been unable to find an answer for. Some of you guys appear far more clued in to what is going on in Israel than I am, so I thought this might be a good place to ask....

What percentage of the Palestinian terrorist attacks have taken place outside the occupied territories?

What percentage of Israeli attacks have taken place outside the occupied territories?

jc

Sand

Hmmm im not sure. From what i can make out from news reports- nearly all suicide bombings are inside Israel proper, probably due to the lack of a sympathetic populace meaning escape for a palestinian terrorist inside Israel is most likely impossible. Now if they were to carry out a terrorist attack on a college campus then im sure theyd find no end of sympathisers to aid their escape.

Israeli retaliations and strikes on terrorists are almost always in the gaza strip and west bank as far as i can tell.

Whats the relevance, out of curiosity?

mike65

In the 1970s' the PLO used to go round killing Isrealis outside
Israel and the occupied territories and they'd be wont to hijack the odd passanger jet too, but you may not be old enough to
remember those days... while Mossad were no doubt bumping
off same wherever they could be caught but we proberly never got to hear of that.

Mike.

Zebedee

Originally posted by Sand
- nearly all suicide bombings are inside Israel proper, probably due to the lack of a sympathetic populace meaning escape for a palestinian terrorist inside Israel is most likely impossible. .

Surely a suicide bomber wouldn't spend much time worrying about an escape route?.

Suicide bomb attacks on civilians take place inside Israel proper while there have been suicide attacks on the Israeli military inside the Occupied Territories.
Israeli attacks are on the Palestinian Authority which is in the Gaza Strip and parts of the Occupied Territories.

Sand

Thats why they use suicide bombers Zeb, cos there is no escape route- that was my point:)
Drive-by shootings of people and snipings/mortaring seem to be used against settler families, because escape is more likely.

Boston

Originally posted by Zebedee

Israeli attacks are on the Palestinian Authority which is in the Gaza Strip and parts of the Occupied Territories.

sure, those kids that isreali blow up on there way to school werent civilians, of those thousands upon thousands in refugee camps arent civilians either.

Sand

And those families and people that the palestinians *deliberately* targeted with suicide bombers werent civillians either.

Israels policy of retaliation is heavy handed to be sure. But I have little sympathy for a people who rejected an offer containing 95% of their territorial demands, preferring a campaign of terror in its stead.

Boston

so who exactly did the palestinians target, all 3 million of them that are living in utter poverty because isreal forced them out of there land, all go to gether and all bombed isreal.

ive little sympathy for dead isreali who elect a mass murderer like Ariel Sharon, who as far as im concerned feiced up the 95% agreement, before he even got power. allso that didnt allow for a palestinian state.

in isreal anybody male over 18 is open to be drafted, in that sense their all open targets.

and Israels policy of aggravation and condemnation is more then heavy handed, its on par with the actions of hamas itself.we keeps calling the palestinians terrorist, yet month in month out more of them are killed by the isreali army then the other way around. 1 police man dead and 4 injured last night, as isreal invaded part of the west bank. any other country we would be calling for their heads. the us blocked a un mandate to send foreign observers in to see exactly what crimes isreal is commiting.

if it werent for the 5 billion in millitary aid and i dear say nearly twice that in foreign aid, they recieve every year from the us, isreal would have been forced to make peace by now.
ive the feeling that arafat will be dead petty soon, and then hamas will come to power. then god help us all

Von

Originally posted by Sand
But I have little sympathy for a people who rejected an offer containing 95% of their territorial demands, preferring a campaign of terror in its stead.

Have you ever wondered about the other 5%? No one was clear on what basis the "95 per cent" of the West Bank had been calculated, since the original borders have been gerrymandered and redrawn repeatedly to accommodate Jewish settlements and extend Israeli control over East Jerusalem. But what did emerge from negotiations was that Israel would keep at least 10 per cent for its existing settlements and another 10 per cent for "security needs," in addition to having an army presence in the Jordan Valley. What land in Israel would be swapped to compensate the Palestinians for this was not specified. There were suggestions that this might be toxic waste land. The West Bank would not be contiguous but divided into three cantons separated by Jewish-only roads. The allocation of water and other resources did not even feature in the talks.

Boston

Originally posted by Von

. There were suggestions that this might be toxic waste land. The West Bank would not be contiguous but divided into three cantons separated by Jewish-only roads. The allocation of water and other resources did not even feature in the talks.

sounds about what you would expect for the isrealis

im of the ferm believe that a people under occupation have every right to fight that occupation with what ever means available.

what would you have them do, go head to head with both armies.
the only reason you call them terrorist is because the state of palestine hasnt openly decleared war on isreal, hell its not even a state.

im allways amazed when people take the stance that the isrealis have the right to defend themselves by any means. you wouldnt say that about the serbs in kosovo.

Sand

Ive got an idea. Why dont you go over and sort out the whole Palestinian situation. Your talents are wasted here sitting safely in front of your PC safe from political violence, you should be out there sharing your wisdom.

Until you do summon the guts to go and tell the Israelis they dont have the right to have a state (because they took it from the palestinians, who took it from the british (briefly), who took it from the ottomans or whoever, who took it from the Crusaders, who took it from the arabs, who took it from the romans, who took it from the Israelis, who took it from...read up on your bible for this one) perhaps the Israelies might just possibly be allowed to kill those who intend to kill them.

People have the right to life, even if they happen to be Israelis (those b4st4rds!!!) and allies of the US. They are allowed to defend their rights. The Palestinians have no right to send brainwashed fools in to kill dozens of women and children. Perhaps youve been listening to too much IRA propaganda and believe theres no difference between terrorism and a just war. The Irish republic was founded due to the fact we accepted the 95% we were offered. Meanwhile the palestinians continue to doom their children to a war they cannot win and a war that brings them only misery.

And as you recall Ariel Sharon was elected because the politics of appeasement followed by the Israeli left were rejected by the Palestinians.

A war isnt fair or just merely because the casualty lists are evenly balanced. The fact that more Hamas die than Israeli civillians is probably due to the fact that the Israelis are better equipped and trained and have very good intelligence. That doesnt make them evil. The palestinians terrorists have decided that they will best serve the palestinian people by running into shopping malls and killing and maiming dozens of women and children with exsplosives. The Israelies will not permit this to happen. They will kill them before they can do it. They will kill them should they attempt to do it. They will those who direct them. In the long run it saves lives. One scumbag terrorist dies dies, the lives of up to 25 civillians are saved....You do the math.

Boston

ha, when you cant argue the points allways resort to calling the other guy an IRA member, i find that hugely funny, if you think i support the ira, then i think you have miss read me completely haa.

then resort o the good old, well you guys nicked it from those guys before you. so if norway invaded ireland you would be perfectly happy with that then i persume?

People do have the right to life, but it seems some value life alittle different, and im sure the tanks on palestine land, and the jet fighters attacking refugee camps on the isreali border are all brainwashed into the people and never really happen. grow up, its easy to call them all insane nut jobs and leave it at that, its hard to except the fact they are people pushed to the edge by a cruel an demonic power.

im sorry if i dont feel sorry in anyway when i see isrealis dieing, i wont pertend that the palestines are any better, they are equally bad, what i hate is when one side makes the other out to be the hero, they are both two sides of the same coin.

as for the dead, i was talking civilian not military, more palestinian civilians die every month then isreali.

tell me this, one innocent Palestinian, taken for a terrorist, when hes simply trying to do his job, happens everyday there. 25 people join hamas as a result, you do the math.
i suppose its his fault for being born he got killed, maybe they cant win, but neither can isreal. for all your talk you havent been able to offer a soloution

Btw why the hell would i go to isreal, ive had this arguement a hundread times face to face with people, on the net, on the phone, whatever.

Sand

I didnt say you were an IRA member, i said you utilised the same reasoning they do for terrorism - I.E the British have tanks and aircraft, soooo lets bomb women and children in pubs and shopping markets- As long as they painted themselves as the victims against a terrible imperialist power, they were given a carte blanche for any atrocity by the left. As such its hardly surprising the IRA has adopted the political views of the left. If you find the similarities to be disturbing then perhaps you might care to take your head out of the sand.

The ol nicked it before them thing? Im saying that the palestinians took it from Israel before- why are they suddenly the wounded party when they Israelis took it back? And if Norway did happen to invade Ireland for whatever reason i wouldnt take it as a good reason to murder Norwegian women and children- would you?

Youre the only one valuing the right to life differently here. You said that because Israel has a draft that theyre all valid targets? What even those kids whose heads were beaten in by rocks in a cave about 5 months ago? They were valid targets?

You then say that you consider the palestinians to be equally bad, despite having said Israelies are a "cruel and demonic power", whilst the palestinians are "people pushed to the edge". Uh huh. Seems about as unbiased as can be to me there. Also more palestinians civillians die than israeli civillians? Possible because Hamas isnt a regular milatary force perhaps? I sure as hell dont see Israel deliberately targeting women and children for kicks.

Hmm youre saying Israel shouldnt kill terrorists because then its possible more youngsters will become terrorists (And what a surprise that would be seeing as their daily school lessons include such wonderful brainwashing as "Death to the Jews"). And your plan for stopping the terrorists would be what? Negotiating with them- Failed. Ask them nicely to stop-Failed. Give them a medal?

Boston

so you think people shouldnt use there heads and evaluate there view point for each situation. maybe you could compare the two, is some tiny way. i dont know, to me they are to very different things.

as for who took it from who, if i remember right wasnt it the romans he took it from the them. none of it matters. the past is the past today is today.

Youre the only one valuing the right to life differently here. You said that because Israel has a draft that theyre all valid targets? What even those kids whose heads were beaten in by rocks in a cave about 5 months ago? They were valid targets?

you see, the thing is you have to go back 5 months for an example of isreali kids being murdered, i only have to go back a week or two for palestinian. what you think palestinians have the copyright on violent gang beatens.

as for bias, you have to ask, what drives an sane logical person, to become a suicide bomber, and dont say it doesnt happen, that they are all raised for this, because they arnt.
ive no doubt that the likes of hamas are as bad as the isreali giverment, but what is the lieks of hamas or the plo, maybe 10% of the people, when isreal strikes back they dont keep it to that 10%

as for you last comment. if you are saying that the only way isreal can fight terrorist is to kill innocent palestinians along with them, then im sorry you have allready lost this arguement.

Ps id give the people what they want, even you must admitt, unless you plan on wiping all of them out, your going to have to talk with them at some stage

PS whats your pre occupation with weman and children? dont like men die in these attacks to. though id love to continue this all night, its 1am and im going to bed

Sand

Nice attempt to limp away from the IRA comparison:)

You contradict yourself the with your next point "the past is the past, today is today"- If so why dont the palestinians live in the today and give up their battle for a land they lost - what 53 years ago now? Surely if they were to live in today theyd be thinking more about how they can provide education, jobs, health and a decent standard of living rather than engage in a pointless war they cannot win.

I went back 5 months because that one stuck in my mind as to how utterly evil the guys who did that to 12 year olds were. Those kids werent hit by accident by a stray missle or bullet. They were beaten in pure cold blooded evil. If i wanted to i could have mentioned the Israeli children who were killed in bombings of resteraunts and malls. By the way you still havent answered my challenge on how you value an Israelis life to be worth less than a Palestinian life.

Im glad you dont dispute your biasedness and instead attempt to engage about what makes a suicide bomber. I can honestly say i dont know. Thankfully the leaders of this country concentrated on providing me with oppurtunites , whereas the best the palestinians get is those "Death to the Jews" chants and trained how to strip assault rifles. this would relate to my above point about why dont the palestinians live in the present.

The Israelies gave em 95% of what they wanted. Now thats a pretty damn good deal imo. However the palestinians thought they could get more by bombing israeli women and children.

I never said Israel targeted innocent civillians. I said they targeted terrorists. Unfortunately these terrorists have a habit of using civillians as human shields. Best way for the innocent to stay alive? Dont associate with terrorists would be my guess.

My pre-occupation with women and children? Well that made me think a bit. What i came up with it this. The left wing media and many people like yourself like to dwell heavily on the the injustices done to the palestinians while at the same time glossing over the atrocities committed by the palestinians. I use the term women and children because i want people like yourself to remeber who exactly is being targeted by these b4st4rds. Though youd dearly love to you cant equate the palestinians targeting of Israeli women and children with the Israelis targeting of terrorists. If youre made feel uncomftable by my use of the phrase then perhaps you may wish to re-evaluate your position.

Von

Originally posted by Sand
The Israelies gave em 95% of what they wanted. Now thats a pretty damn good deal imo. However the palestinians thought they could get more by bombing israeli women and children.

This dude flagrantly ignored my post so here it is again.

Have you ever wondered about the other 5%? No one was clear on what basis the "95 per cent" of the West Bank had been calculated, since the original borders have been gerrymandered and redrawn repeatedly to accommodate Jewish settlements and extend Israeli control over East Jerusalem. But what did emerge from negotiations was that Israel would keep at least 10 per cent for its existing settlements and another 10 per cent for "security needs," in addition to having an army presence in the Jordan Valley. What land in Israel would be swapped to compensate the Palestinians for this was not specified. There were suggestions that this might be toxic waste land. The West Bank would not be contiguous but divided into three cantons separated by Jewish-only roads. The allocation of water and other resources did not even feature in the talks.

I don't think it's necessary to point out that water is important in that part of the world. And I have Jewish friends who've done their service in the IDF.

Boston

your talking about thinkgs taht happened hundreads of years ago, whats going on is going on now.

and that resoning for civilian deaths can be used to justifies, you can say isreali uses its civilians as human shelds in its settlements

And, btw the weman and children thing doesnt botter, me, but you seems to see a huge difference, brtween scores of innocent people dieing in a palestinian attack and scores of innocent people dieing as a result of an isreali attack on a terrorist.
your only arguement is that the terrorist uses them as shelds, hardly something they have control over, or do you think unless they start hanging hamas members from trees, that they themselves deserve to die along with the people they silently protect. tell me this, do you really think the isreali gun man in the tank cares if he takes out afew people along with his target. you think you will care, that you family will care weather or not your murder set out to dilpertly kill you or not. Your dead and thats that.

Sand

Originally posted by Von

I don't think it's necessary to point out that water is important in that part of the world. And I have Jewish friends who've done their service in the IDF.

I didnt ignore it. I read it. I just didnt see what answering it with "95% is a hell of a lot better than 0%, and as was proven in the case of Ireland it can be used as a stepping stone to greater independence" because there are plenty of people here who obviously belive compromise has no place in negotiations.

By the way suggestions that theyd give em toxic waste land? Hmm , "suggestions" from un-named sources are not enough basis to reject a deal.

Palestine wouldnt be contiguous (initially at least). Well i guess thats a good justification for suicide bombings.

Perhaps the allocation fo water etc etc did not feature because it was assumed to be a given that water could be provided from either Israeli or other arab systems? Especially given that they could make some money by selling the water to the PLO or whoever was running the show. Thats where good ol capitalist greed comes in to sideline any bias.

Did you recruit those jewish friends merely so you could use them as "Look at me, im unbiased- i have jewish friends"?

your talking about thinkgs taht happened hundreads of years ago, whats going on is going on now.

Youre just repeating the contradiction you made before. The same people who will list all of the US's infractions around the globe in chronological order and cite palestines historical right to Israel like to forget about it whenever they realise that the Israelis have an even older claim .

And, btw the weman and children thing doesnt botter, me, but you seems to see a huge difference, brtween scores of innocent people dieing in a palestinian attack and scores of innocent people dieing as a result of an isreali attack on a terrorist.

I do see a huge difference. My definition of terrorism is the deliberate targeting of a civillian population. Thats what the palestinians are doing. They are attempting to kill as many women and children as they can by suicide bombing resteraunts and shopping centers. The Israelis do not target civillians. They target terrorists. Civillians who are in proximity to terrorists at the time may die. That is unavoidable. The murder of civillians is not the Israelis goal though. That is the difference in my opinion.

Boston

you keep talking about isreali historical clams on isreal, that is an arguement allways used. he give a flying ****, you think the palestinians do, people are fighting this war for reasons alot closer to today then they are for reason a hundread or two years ago.
you keep saying im contradictign myself, im not, you clearly cant see the difference between what happened 57 years ago and continued to happen for every year since. just because the obpression happened 30, 40 even 50 years ago, doesnt mean it stoped.
i havent tried to claim the palestinians have more of a right over isreal then the Jews, im saying they have a right to life, and not to have to live in filthy refugee camps for there life, and raise their kids to do that same. what the isrealis did went against everythign the UN is meant to up hold.

As for you last comment, you seems to be under the impression that anybody killed by the isrealis are terrorist, you say that other killed are just a mistake? how can droping bombs on refugee camps by a mistake, how can sending tanks to shell police stations be a mistake either?

Sand

No i dont belive that Israels claim is historical in nature. I believe its real in nature given they live there now, run a government there and have enough tanks and aircraft to ensure they stay there. The only people living in the past are the palestinians who still live in refugeee camps because their leaders are still hung up on a war they lost 53 years ago. They lost the war, Israel exsists and isnt going anywhere- end of story. They should have spent the last 53 years trying to better their lives. Instead they waste entire generations in a petty conflict with Israel. The fact is that the Israelis have concentrated on providing a better life for themselves- meanwhile...well the palestinians are still living in filthy refugee camps.

Im not under the impression that everyone the israelis kill are terrorists. Im under the impression that everyone they target are terrorists. The balance are the poor gits who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And you have claimed that Israelis dont have an equal right to live. You claimed because Israel has a draft that theyre all "open targets". You said it.

Boston

im saying thats how palestinians justify it, that todays 18 year old kid could be tomorrows army solider "accidentally" blowing you up on your way to work. the point is, though they may not target civilians per say, when they attack they know that some will die. you have said one terrorist dies 25 poeple are saved thats its a good deal, what about 1 terrorist dies 10 people die along with him, does that sound as good? You keep on refereing to the idea of dubble intent, that if you kill someone, through your actions or inactions, once you they werent who you intended to kill, its not evil. That is a arguement that has been used to justify some of the worse things in our history.
to me if the result is the same there can be no difference, therefore isrealis are just as bad as hamas or anybody else.



btw i see your a believer that might makes right, i disagree with that one, but thats another topic

Typedef

Sand.

Fact is military repression of the people of Palestine is never going to work. The British experience and resolution in Ireland to violence can attest to this. The UK is 40 times the size of the Republic and yet the only way for the UK and Ireland to exist in a modicum of normalcy is a peace accord that encompasses the rights of both peoples, not the dominance of the UK over Ireland but by the logic that says "Israel exists and has more guns than everyone else, deal with it" the Republic would not exist, because the Irish would have realised how futile a war with such a giant of a military power would be. This is not the case therefore by the logic espoused by the existance of the Republic, the Palestinians are entirely right not to give up on righting the terrible wrongs done to them by the US-Israeli axis.

Sand

Blowing up children is not justified by the "nits make lice" argument.

If people were permitted to use civillians as human shields then it would become vastly more popular with terrorists who would then be able to kill far more women and children- whilst law and order sat on their hands unable to do anything for fear of collateral damage.

Might doesnt nessarily make right. Israel isnt interested in the milatary repression of palestinians. Theyre interested in their own security. And theyve got this Keee-Razy idea that the 200 million arabs surrounding them want to kill them all and eliminate them from history- [SARCASM]now im not sure where theyre getting that from tbh with you.[/SARCASM]

Israel exsists and it has enough guns to prevent its elimination. I could repeat it a dozen times but at the end of the day the fact remains that Palestine cannot ever hope to win the war-never ever ever . A leadership that commits its people to an unwinnable war instead of concentrating on providing them a better life is the source of the palestinian conflict imo.

The Irish did realise how futile the war with the UK was. Thats why the "95%" the British offered was accepted. Of course the hardline republicans shared your views at the time that if they just killed a bit more theyd get the full 100%. This is the same logic guiding Hamas and the PLO currently.

Typedef

You're actually blatantly wrong. Again I qualify this assertion with the existance of the Republic of Ireland. If it were simply a matter of military will the Republic would never have come to pass as .The UK had/has a big enough military to impose rule on Ireland if it so wished fact. Therefore your argument does not hold weight. The next fact is, is that a majority of people accept the right of Israel to exist, but it cannot impose the colonization and annexation of territories that do not belong to it. I know the law of the jungle might vindicate the fact that Israel is occupying land and colonising that same land in flagrant disregard of UN resolutions.

No amount of pointing to specific instances of settlers (where settler is a nice word for colonist on Palestinian land illegally occupied by said persons army in contempt of the UN and every other country in the UN bar the USA) will ever, ever, ever, make the imposition of occupation and colonization right. Somehow you are attempting to suggest that when Israel kills a suspected member of Hamas that this is justifiable but it is wrong for the Palestinians to resist occupation and kill for their cause.

You are attempting to suggest that when Israel says that killing innocent children, like the eleven year old girl killed by the Israeli army whilst in school some months back is a necessary evil, but that when the Palestinians cause the same kind of action that somehow this is unacceptable. Why is that? Why is it that Israel can call the murder of innocents "collateral damage" or some other such asorbic phrase and the USA rubber stamps such action as justafiable under "extenuating circumstances" or some other such non-thought buzz word, but the same criteria for self defence and equality is not extended to the occupied people namely the Palestinians?

Now while the USA may think that it is it's place to protect Israel from the rest of the member states of the UN and veto every single attempt to send UN observers to the Israeli occupied regions, it must be time for the USA to step back and allow an international solution for the confilict in the Middle East. Clearly the USA cannot be an impartial mediator when it is giving 8 billion dollars a year in ostensibly military aid to Israel. It is wholely right for the UN to step in, but sadly the USA can veto any mandate it does not agree with, to the determent of the defence of the Palestinian people.

Boston

i pass the arguement over to someone much better at it then i

Sand

Dear god, deliver me from this hell. Is your idea of winning an argument simply ignoring everything your opponent says and simply repating ad nauseum your foolish views until they give up in disgust?

The UK did not have the milatary power to enforce law and order in the republic. The RIC was forced to abandon its posts throughtout the country, and the British system broke down in many areas with such occurences as Dail Courts- ah feck it buy a history book and check the rest yourself.

I again must ask if youve read any of my posts as regards to my definition of terrorism. I will repeat it again for your benefit

1)The palestinians are terrorists because they deliberately target women and children and non- milatary targets in a cold blooded attempt to kill as many of them as they can. If you support this and make exscuses for it then you are supporting terrorism.
2)Israel is justified to kill these terrorists as it is their right to self defence. Civillians may die accidentally (whats your definition of accident by the way- mine is where an unintended thing comes to be)- this is a terrible thing but it is a nessary evil to defeat terrrorism.

The diffference is (And read this carefully) Palestinians Want to kill children. That is what they plan to do when they blow up resteraunts and shopping stores. There is no milatary value to these targets. Just terror.

Terrorism is not Self Defence
Terrorism is not Justifiable
Terrorism is not Okay merely because its happening to people far away.
Terrorism has not improved the plight of the Palestinian people in ANY shape or form.

Im completely shocked at your double standards. You claims not to support the IRA and indeed get insulted when you believe that I implied you did. Yet at the same time you believe terrorism is okay for palestinians- I guess it comes back to the fact that you believe that the Israelis are "getting what they deserve", much as the Americans got what they deserved on September 11th

Typedef

Aha Sand.

So terrorism is the killing of innocent people is it? Well then, at which trial did the so called "terrorists" that Israel is targetting get convicted? Do you really believe that the suspicion of being a so-called "terrorist" is justification enough to execute someone? My god the allies put the Nazi's, men and woem who had participated in the organised murder of tens of millions of people in concentration camps like Auschwitz on trial? No-one on this earth, especially a government that claims legitamicy can execute people in the manner Israel has been targetting so-called "terrorists". What if you or I were labeled a "terrorist" would it be ok to kill us? What kind of state has the power to decide person X is a terrorist and therefore does not deserve a trial and in fact should be given summary execution, and if the act of attempting to execute said suspected terrorist kills some civilians then that is "collateral damage"?

Palestinians Want to kill children.

What the hell are you trying to say? That somehow being born Palestinian makes you a cold-blooded murder defacto? Give me a break.

Let me say something very clearly. Israel is occupying land illegally, contrary to UN mandates, Israel is colonising this land with the people who used to own this land at the other end of an (American manufactured) Israeli gun. This is wrong, this must stop, the USA must allow the UN to send observers to the middle east and allow the international community to create a more partial mediated settlement between the two peoples in the middle east. You can not be a mediator between two sides wihlst arming one side against the other, that is a conflict of interest. How come the USA can use the UN to lend legitimacy to it's war in Afghanistan but, is not prepared to allow the UN send observers to the ME?

Sand

Youre right. Why doesnt the PLO arrest them and put them on trial? Its because the PLO which runs palestine is a terrorist organisation itself. So who terrorists judge the terrorists. Im sure there will be a lot of convictions.

The Nazis were put on trial because the Allies were the force of law and order in post-war germany. The PLO are the law and order in Palestine. Ironic really.

I actually realise youre right on the next point. I called the palestinian terrorists cold blooded. I shouldnt have. Theyre in the middle of the conflict. Youre the cold blooded one because you sit in safety and make exscuses for them and their atrocities. Apologies for calling the wrong people cold blooded.

The Israelis should rely upon the UN for its security then? Hmmm its track record of Srebinica and Rwanda arent exactly cheery reading are they. The UN is just a talking shop- its pathetically useless for anything except passing stupid resolutions which are ignored in the real world.

Typedef

Youre right. Why doesnt the PLO arrest them and put them on trial? Its because the PLO which runs palestine is a terrorist organisation itself. So who terrorists judge the terrorists. Im sure there will be a lot of convictions.

It is not the place of Israel (being an illegal force of occupation) to emasculate the Palestinian Authorith (not the PLO), nor is it the place of Israel to act and judge, jury & executioner.

The Nazis were put on trial because the Allies were the force of law and order in post-war germany. The PLO are the law and order in Palestine. Ironic really.

The PLO is not the force of law and order in Palestine, the PA has police and a justice system so you are quite wrong.

I actually realise youre right on the next point. I called the palestinian terrorists cold blooded. I shouldnt have. Theyre in the middle of the conflict. Youre the cold blooded one because you sit in safety and make exscuses for them and their atrocities. Apologies for calling the wrong people cold blooded.

First off, if you can't deal with the argument in a grown up fashion the don't degenerate to the level of casting aspersions on people who hold a different view to you. If you have to lower you're argument to the level of name-calling then you've already lost. Further you don't know me pal so to say I am cold-blooded is exactly the kind of sweeping, absolutist, non-thought that is used to inflame people into acting without thinking. Funnily enough it is exactly that kind of reactionary, ignorant and wholly illogical argument that seems to qualify much of the arguments that come out of the Americans when justifying the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestinian Areas. Just last night the Americans yet again vetoed a UN resolution to send observers to the ME citing exactly that kind of non-thought argument, "Israel would be isolated", which apparently is preferential to any kind of UN intervention.

The Israelis should rely upon the UN for its security then? Hmmm its track record of Srebinica and Rwanda arent exactly cheery reading are they. The UN is just a talking shop- its pathetically useless for anything except passing stupid resolutions which are ignored in the real world.

Sorry, you are the one who said the Israeli's have more guns than anyone else, so why would the UN have to provide security. For your information Israel a nuclear power and has little need of protection from anyone at this stage.
Oh and on the pathetic resolutions, the USA has used a UN resolution to justify the bombing of Afghanistan. The reason the UN gets turned into a talking shop is because the USA vetoes any actions that do not comply with US interests, like for example sending monitors to the middle east. The UN does lots of great work and it would be entirely wrong to label the UN pathetic. The only resolutions that are ignored are the resolutions the US either refuses to enforce or blatantly ignores and when the US does not get it's way in the UN, it refuses to pay it's bills, how typical, the Americans have a saying "everything is for sale" not apparently the countries that are attempting to place UN monitors in the ME it would seem no?

Sand

Originally posted by Typedef


Sorry, you are the one who said the Israeli's have more guns than anyone else, so why would the UN have to provide security.

They do- so why would they need the UNs unarmed moving targets (okay okay peacekeepers if you insist) when the best way to ensure their security is to kill those who threaten it?

Israel shouldnt have to take the place of the palestinians justice system. So why do they have to? Why hasnt arafat rounded up the terrorists and murderers in his juristiction? Until he does Israel is justified in doing so to protect itself.

PLO/PA- they both report to Arafat and are the two sides of the same coin. Calling them a law enforcement /justic agency is quite ironic given that they do their best to encourage the terrorism.

You make exscuses for and support the actions of palestinian terrorists. Youve made that very clear in your statements through this thread. I find that appalling and I consider it to be cold blooded on your part. If that offends you, tough- its my opinion and were still allowed to have them.

And the UN is a talking shop, used as a puppet by the great powers (China, the USSR and USA are all guilty of "fixing" it). The UN cannot keep the peace without the support of the great powers. It is ineffectual and pathetic. Srebinica is the prime example of how effective the UN is.

Von

Originally posted by Sand

Did you recruit those jewish friends merely so you could use them as "Look at me, im unbiased- i have jewish friends"?

Due to your predictable "if you don't approve of Israel's policies you must be nazi IRA" kind of logic, I pointed out that I have friends who have far more knowledge and understanding of the complexity of this subject (including first hand experience of being in riot situations) than all the dribbling nerds here put together. This kind of information allows me to form a rational opinion that is hopefully not biased one way or the other.

Typedef

They do- so why would they need the UNs unarmed moving targets (okay okay peacekeepers if you insist) when the best way to ensure their security is to kill those who threaten it?

Number one, UN monitors are not peace keepers but monitors there is a difference, understand this and move on.
Number two, if you kill someone who you think "threatens your security" that is called summary execution and is akin to murder. So by your agrgument you are attempting to say that because the response of the PA is not adequate for Israel, that Israel may arbitrarily decide that person X is a terrorist, threatens Israeli security and must be executed. What you are attempting to justify is a totalitarian state that has the power to arbitrarily execute people on the suspicion of terrorism or any other reason said state may wish to execute people. In effect this amounts to a religious and socio-political ethnic cleansing. The Israeli's are not entitled to do this, might is not right, if it were Ireland would never have become a state think about it the UK is a nuclear power, if might were right Ireland would be a constituent of the UK.

Israel shouldnt have to take the place of the palestinians justice system. So why do they have to? Why hasnt arafat rounded up the terrorists and murderers in his juristiction? Until he does Israel is justified in doing so to protect itself.

Israel does not, nor has anyone asked the Israeli's to take the place of the Palestinian justice system. Israel should respect the justice system of the PA, and if the Israeli government were really interested in peace instead of trying to abrogate the influence of Yassir Arafat, Israel would respect and engage with the PA's justice mechanism. It is not the place of Israel to act as police force in-kind for Palestinians. By your argument the British would be well within their rights to cross the border and start firing on Garda stations and on the offices of the Dial because in the Republic there exist "terrorists" who pose a threat to Britian and the Irish have not arrested them. Then your argument would further qualify said British force the right to preform summary execution on people who it believed were "terrorists". Is this what you are suggesting?
Let me put it another way. Do you believe the Irish Army should cross the border into Protestant areas of Nothern Ireland and arbitrarily kill anyone deemed to be a terrorist? Sounds far fetched? Yet this is what Israel does every day. In the last few months nearly everyday the Israelis have killed 3,4,5,6,x number of people on a daily basis under the same remit. If it would not swing in Ireland, then it should not swing in Palestine pure and simple.

PLO/PA- they both report to Arafat and are the two sides of the same coin. Calling them a law enforcement /justic agency is quite ironic given that they do their best to encourage the terrorism.

Do you have any evidence that the PA's police encourage "terrorism" or are you just typing it for it's shock effect? If you have evidence of this please post it because that would be a bit of a coupt d'etat.

You make exscuses for and support the actions of palestinian terrorists. Youve made that very clear in your statements through this thread. I find that appalling and I consider it to be cold blooded on your part. If that offends you, tough- its my opinion and were still allowed to have them.

Well if we are going to allude to each others personal dispositions and not the issue of this thread, or anything even vaguely resembeling the issue may I illucidate you as to my opinion of you? I think you are a snivelling little grab assed moron. You show about as much intellegence in your posts as I would expect of someone who holds your goddam skewed right wing, darwinian views namely none. I honestly thought that only the USA could breed the kind of hick red-necked views you seem to hold but obviously I was wrong. Hey at your next meeting of the Zionists ass kissers group don't forget to bring your vaseline, wouldn't want that nice tight ass of yours getting chaffed while they bang you in it now would we?
So really the adage rings true "Never argue with and idot because they will drag you down to their level where they beat you with experience".

So now that I have come down to your level and made a personal attack against you as you have now done twice with me I believe I will go and count my sock collection or my hydrogen atom collection.
Goodbye.

Sand

Where did i say that if you disagreed with Israels policies you must be nazi IRA? My logic is that if you support terrorism in Palestine (Call it a war of liberation, or a david vs goliath struggle for freedom if it makes you sleep easier at night) then whats so different about the IRA- the onyl difference i can see in the opinions above is that the Israelis "deserve it, that nits make lice etc etc".

The quote you used was made because i find it terribly uninteresting who you are friends with. As for the value of first hand experience theres the question of losing objectivity, of not seeing the forest for the trees.

Boston

i believe that it was somewere towards the start of this and directed at me, i refused to be drawn on the subject, and then you tried to trap me several times later in simplar ways. im surprised you havent brough up osama and sept 11th.

ill admitte, i thought i wa just about going head to head with you on this, but Typedef has come out of no where and given you a good trashing, hes argueing everyone of your points and making you reavaluate your own. well done, we might just learn something here.

Von

Originally posted by Sand
As for the value of first hand experience theres the question of losing objectivity, of not seeing the forest for the trees.

I've tried me damnedest to keep up with this dude's devastating political insights but he's lost me here. If the point of view of someone living in a war zone should be dismissed cos it might affect my ability to form an objective opinion, whose opinions are considered applicable? This little dude's?

That's enuff nonsenseness. I go on holiday tomorrow.


[SIZE=f]MERRY KRISTMUSH NERDS!! [/SIZE]

Sand

Originally posted by Typedef

Well if we are going to allude to each others personal dispositions and not the issue of this thread, or anything even vaguely resembeling the issue may I illucidate you as to my opinion of you? I think you are a snivelling little grab assed moron. You show about as much intellegence in your posts as I would expect of someone who holds your goddam skewed right wing, darwinian views namely none. I honestly thought that only the USA could breed the kind of hick red-necked views you seem to hold but obviously I was wrong. Hey at your next meeting of the Zionists ass kissers group don't forget to bring your vaseline, wouldn't want that nice tight ass of yours getting chaffed while they bang you in it now would we?
So really the adage rings true "Never argue with and idot because they will drag you down to their level where they beat you with experience".

So now that I have come down to your level and made a personal attack against you as you have now done twice with me I believe I will go and count my sock collection or my hydrogen atom collection.
Goodbye.

Ive really got to laugh when i read that. You call Israel a "cruel and demonic power", you call all their citizens "open targets", you say the palestinians are a "people pushed to the edge". I say youre cold blooded about the murders of people far away. I can justify that by YOUR comments, not mine. You fall prey to the weakness of the Left- all your arguments are emotive and based on emotive dogma-Is it so unusual you fall down to the level of screaming at me? Because I believe that the palestinians campaign of terror is evil and the Israelis have a right to life and to defend that right- You believe im some sort of right wing fanatic?

P.S
Ive been made aware that I attributed those quotes i made in the paragraph above to Typedef when in fact it was his cheerleader Boston. My bad.
I will instead use the following quotes made by Typedef to back up my belief that he is cold hearted and makes exscuses for terrorists, and feels they are justified in murdering women and children.

the Palestinians are entirely right not to give up on righting the terrible wrongs done to them by the US-Israeli axis.

Somehow you are attempting to suggest that when Israel kills a suspected member of Hamas that this is justifiable but it is wrong for the Palestinians to resist occupation and kill for their cause.

the same criteria for self defence and equality is not extended to the occupied people namely the Palestinians?

so-called "terrorists".

Also your comments up there betray a startling amount of anti-americanism and homophobia/insecurity about your sexuality
End of Edit


So theyre monitors and not peacekeepers- well thatll reassure the Israelis Soooooooo much.

And yes i think anyone who threatens youre security should be summarily executed. If Arafat wont deal with the militants Israel is forced to and will do so. Its not ethnic cleansing (see more emotive dogma) its called killing terrorists.

You go back to the british-irish thing (again trying to dig up some more emotive responses, trying to trade on Irish stereotypes of the british as arrogant and ignorant). Heres the difference which you do not clearly understand. The Irish government is a democracy. Since the formation of the state it has cracked down on the IRA and other dissident groups. Does the internment of the 1930s and WW2 ring a bell? It has siezed arms dumps in the republic and co-operated with their British counterparts. They do all they can to stop terrorism. As such your argument about British assassinating people in Ireland is shown up for what it is- more emotive dogma.

If it would not swing in Ireland, then it should not swing in Palestine pure and simple.

Youre hilarious in your hypocrisy. The same guy who makes exscuses for Hamas, yet is offended when the IRA is mentioned.

Do you have any evidence that the PA's police encourage "terrorism" or are you just typing it for it's shock effect? If you have evidence of this please post it because that would be a bit of a coupt d'etat.

Lets see, Palestinian TV (owned by the PA) daily issues tirades against Israel, encouraging suicide bombers to carry out their missons. Their police force has been seen to co-ordinate rioters against Israeli forces. Their police force also allows the militants to carry out their attacks with no inteference. Compare that to how the Irish government deals with the IRA.

Should you reply please stop inventing ridiculous and pointless situations that are just an attempt to get an emotive response out of me-They might work at your Judean Peoples Front meetings but Im not that irrational. So far weve had British incursions into Ireland, Irish incursions in protestant estates, the British-Irish war, and the the Norwegian invasion of Ireland, and thats only what i can remember off hand.

Boston

Well if we are going to allude to each others personal dispositions and not the issue of this thread, or anything even vaguely resembeling the issue may I illucidate you as to my opinion of you? I think you are a snivelling little grab assed moron. You show about as much intellegence in your posts as I would expect of someone who holds your goddam skewed right wing, darwinian views namely none. I honestly thought that only the USA could breed the kind of hick red-necked views you seem to hold but obviously I was wrong. Hey at your next meeting of the Zionists ass kissers group don't forget to bring your vaseline, wouldn't want that nice tight ass of yours getting chaffed while they bang you in it now would we?
So really the adage rings true "Never argue with and idot because they will drag you down to their level where they beat you with experience".

So now that I have come down to your level and made a personal attack against you as you have now done twice with me I believe I will go and count my sock collection or my hydrogen atom collection.
Goodbye.

Ive really got to laugh when i read that. You call Israel a "cruel and demonic power", you call all their citizens "open targets", you say the palestinians are a "people pushed to the edge". I say youre cold blooded about the murders of people far away. I can justify that by YOUR comments, not mine. You fall prey to the weakness of the Left- all your arguments are emotive and based on emotive dogma-Is it so unusual you fall down to the level of screaming at me? Because I believe that the palestinians campaign of terror is evil and the Israelis have a right to life and to defend that right- You believe im some sort of right wing fanatic?

No actually that was me that said those things not him, and you couldnt argue them when it was me you were up against let alone him.

Btw, you say because arafat doesnt arrest the "terrorist" then the deaths of those killed are on his head, and that they are not murders. that exactly what you saying so dont back track now.

so the bombing of dublin by the sas, because of the irish goverments refusal to arrest ira members was clearly ok then to?

Sand

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
i believe that it was somewere towards the start of this and directed at me, i refused to be drawn on the subject, and then you tried to trap me several times later in simplar ways. im surprised you havent brough up osama and sept 11th.

ill admitte, i thought i wa just about going head to head with you on this, but Typedef has come out of no where and given you a good trashing, hes argueing everyone of your points and making you reavaluate your own. well done, we might just learn something here.

Lets see. Where did i mention the IRA and what did i say about them and you exactly?

Perhaps youve been listening to too much IRA propaganda and believe theres no difference between terrorism and a just war.

I didnt say you were an IRA member, i said you utilised the same reasoning they do for terrorism - I.E the British have tanks and aircraft, soooo lets bomb women and children in pubs and shopping markets- As long as they painted themselves as the victims against a terrible imperialist power, they were given a carte blanche for any atrocity by the left. As such its hardly surprising the IRA has adopted the political views of the left. If you find the similarities to be disturbing then perhaps you might care to take your head out of the sand.

Nice attempt to limp away from the IRA comparison

Right. Now ive got some trouble seeing where I say youre a member of the IRA. Perhaps you can highlight it for me. If not then please stop posting outright lies. An apology would be nice too but i dont expect if.

Ive already commented on Typedefs style of argument , which is basically shout louder than the other guy, refuse to listen to his points and make your "points" as emotive and fantastically outlandish as possible. And throw in a healthy dose of hypocrisy as well. If thats your view of a good debating style then lets hope you never reach public office.

Sand

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»


Btw, you say because arafat doesnt arrest the "terrorist" then the deaths of those killed are on his head, and that they are not murders. that exactly what you saying so dont back track now.

If Arafat can arrest these people and doesnt (And he isnt) then the murders they carry out are on his head. BTW are you sure youre not Typedef. You hold the same views and use the same emotive arguments (SAS bombing Dublin?- give me a break)

Boston

insinuation speaks louder then accusation, and after all, as you have said, all you need is the believe that somoeone may be a terrorist, to make it so.

Boston

Originally posted by Sand


If Arafat can arrest these people and doesnt (And he isnt) then the murders they carry out are on his head. BTW are you sure youre not Typedef. You hold the same views and use the same emotive arguments (SAS bombing Dublin?- give me a break)

i suppose it was the ira then(that makes perfect sense), or the loyalist, (if they could have done it then they could have done it again)

maybe not the sas, but some branch of the british military. either way it doesnt take away from the arguement at hand.
i notice you only argue point you can dilute an blur the lines with inane semantics

though I do find this excessively trilling and all to simulating, I feel I must retire before I say something not becoming a moderator

Sand

Originally posted by Von

I've tried me damnedest to keep up with this dude's devastating political insights but he's lost me here. If the point of view of someone living in a war zone should be dismissed cos it might affect my ability to form an objective opinion, whose opinions are considered applicable? This little dude's?

That's enuff nonsenseness. I go on holiday tomorrow.

Objectivity is a good thing. It allows you to get away from the emotive baggage attached to an issue (Not an option for the Left, because all they have is emotive points). A guy living in a war zone has a point of view. A worthy one no doubt. An objective one? And I never claimed that i knew what Israel or the Palestinians should do. I simply supported the right of Israel to defend itself and i condemmed the Palestinian leadership for only offering their people war, not prosperity. I take it you believe Israel does not have a right to defend itself and the palestinian leadership should be applauded for offering their people only war?

Sand

My arguments do not involve speculation, emotiveness or pure fantasy land stuff. If you have proof the British milatary carried out the attacks then please give it to the Gardai. By the way have you found the part where i called you an IRA member? If not would you please acknowledge that i did not call you an IRA member.

though I do find this excessively trilling and all to simulating, I feel I must retire before I say something not becoming a moderator

Youve already lied about what Ive said and refused to acknowledge that. And while what you might say (Something similar to Typedef?) is most likely unbecoming of a moderator, I wont hold it against you given youre obvious leanings to the Left. All youve know are emotive arguments. Why should i blame you for letting your emotions get the better of you?

Gargoyle

Sand, you can stop trying to argue reasonably with Typedef, its useless.

Gargoyle

As I mentioned in a previous post, a recent report by Human Rights Watch details the revolving door policy the Palestinian Authority with respect to Hamas terrorists.

So tell me, if Yasser Arafat has neither the power nor the desire to restrain Hamas from blowing up 20 more 14 year old girls in a pizza parlour, what should Israel do? It all comes down to one fundamental question: Do you, or do you not believe Israel has the right to defend itself.

I do not always agree with Israel's methods, but I do believe that they have the right, indeed the duty, to eliminate people organizing the murder of their citizens if the authority of the govenrnment in which those people reside either refuses to do so or hasn't the power to do so - especially after Arafat refused to take their offer of 90% + land and statehood even as a basis for negotiation at Camp David.

Sand

Found that Norwegian mention. It was by our sides best player Boston, not Typedef who appears to have merely constrained himself to trading on any British-Irish aggro he can.

bonkey

Someone asked in about the second post what my reasoning for asking the original question was. It was simple - a lot of people are very argumentative about the Palestinian / Israeli conflict, on various sides.

I wanted to check things :

1) I wanted the questions answered out of personal interest

2) I wanted to see whether or not those who are willing to offer long and involved commentaries supporting or condemning either side actually had access to detailed information showing a solid grasp of the actual situation, rather than the major overall points which you can (to be honest) pick up anywhere

3) I wanted to see if I could get the question answered before the entire topic devolved into a name-calling circular argument which has nothing to do with the questions posed

I've been offline for the weekend, hence the lack of moderation on this topic. However, it is off-thread, and there has been an amount of name-calling going on by moire than one poster.

Therefore - thread closed.

jc