Web Design Board Proposal

beaver

Proposal for a new Board



Name: Web Design

Private: No

Reason for Board:

Short Reason: There is no board to focus on the purely aesthetic aspect of web design. Art/Animation doesn't cover it as art can be virtually anything, whereas web design must obey certain tenets so that it gets information across. Webmaster doesn't cover it as it is too broad and mixes issues of coding and markup that are of little or limited concern to the designer.

Long Reason: Over the past few months there has been a noticable change in online discussion on "web design". With the growing importance of technologies such as CSS, Javascript, XHTML, etc. the focus has switched away from the important issues that deal with the aesthetics of web design.

While these emerging technologies (still emerging in comparison to the established techniques of aesthetics) are not quite to be lumped in with the more hard-core of the development discussions (on ASP, PHP, Coldfusion, databases, etc.), they certainly have no place usurping pure design issues.

My guess on why this has happened is that no new space was created for discussion of these issues. CSS is being used not only for formatting but element positioning and so on also. It and the other technologies deserve their own space.

Check out http://www.alistapart.com/stories/bathingape/ for an interesting take on this.

Already present on boards.ie is a Webmaster board. The posts on it are varied but rarely if ever focus on aesthetic issues. The designer has no real concern for the markup of the site (unless s/he is marking it up of course, but my point is that it's largely irrelevant). The experienced designer understands the web and has enough understanding of the technologies behind it to competently design for the web without worrying about how it will be coded.

We also have an Art/Animation board. Nor does this cover the design aspect of web design properly. Art can be wide and varied - much more so than web design. Yes, there is diversity in web design - now moreso than ever, but in comparison to that which we can call art it is limited. It is bound by delimiters such as cross-browser issues, target audiences, cross-platform issues, download speeds and so on and so forth.

I believe we need a Web Design board to focus on the issues that are not being covered on the other boards.


I leave the proposal in your capable hands.

Thanks,
-Ross

Baz_

I dont think that is at all necessary, I personally would have no problem posting web design questions on the webmaster board, I think everything is catered for there. My 2 cents anyway.

beaver

Be that as it may, other people seem to have. There is very rarely any discussion on aesthetics on the Webmaster board.

You seem to have completely missed my point about why the Webmaster board is unsuitable. It is too broad. It does not foster discussion on design. There ought to be a place on the board where discussion on design can take place without discussion about coding or the technicalities behind web development.

IMO this is an opportunity to create some productive discussion on an interesting topic. I know that a lot of people are interested in this area. The Webmaster board is too given to yes/no answers and does not delve into the underlying concepts when it does very occassionally have design-related posts.

Also, as a matter of interest, could anyone posting in relation to this just mention what their link to this field is. For the record I'm a designer (both graphic and web) and I do fairly basic development work (HTML, Javascript, CSS, some ASP, PHP...).

dahamsta

I agree with Baz I'm afraid. I agree that discussion on the Webmaster board has been leaning somewhat towards backend and markup lately, but that's simply because people haven't posted on aesthetics in a while. People have though, there has always been the occasional "What do you think?" thread.

As it stands, the webmaster board is a pretty quiet forum, and I would suggest (respectfully) that if you want to discuss aesthetics, you start some threads in there. If at some time in the future the board gets clogged with aesthetics and the technical people start getting annoyed, there is always the option of splitting the forum.

This is how forum communities should work - expansion should be driven by demand, and by that I mean appreciable demand (no offense like) - in fact I firmly believe it's the only way they will work. I think DeV or one of the other admins will confirm this.

For the record, since you request it, I'm a web developer mostly concerned with technical issues these days, however I have and continue to work on frontends. Part of that is developing frontends to admin interfaces, and part of it is doing final production on the websites we develop - i.e. my partner develops the websites, and I tear them apart and put them back together again, correcting markup and layout inconsistencies.

adam

Baz_

Originally posted by beaver
Be that as it may, other people seem to have. There is very rarely any discussion on aesthetics on the Webmaster board.

You seem to have completely missed my point about why the Webmaster board is unsuitable. It is too broad. It does not foster discussion on design. There ought to be a place on the board where discussion on design can take place without discussion about coding or the technicalities behind web development.

I didnt miss your point, I just dont agree with it. I think as dahamsta said, post stuff on design and test it out, see what response you get. I agree in principle that webmaster is a broad term but again as dahamsta said if and when demand and discussion is aimed specifically at one area, and on a daily basis at that, not once in a blue moon, then it will be time to split it. Splitting it too early would dilute both boards, you dont want that. But again as I said, its just my opinion, I dont actually get a final say, so its still up in the air.

beaver

This is what I'm talking about... for example, you're on web-development lists... but I'm guessing that your partner probably isn't. He's more likely on design-specific lists.

Equally respectfully, I don't post my design-related questions to the Webmaster board because I have never seen a discussion there that suggested to me that the majority of its readers know much about aesthetics.

In any case, there is virtually no such thing as a webmaster any more. At the most basic it's generally broken into frontend and backend. They two facets are much too broad for their respective discussions to cohabitate.

As to demand, I think it's there. I think that a lot of people who consider themselves designers don't actually know the extent to which design goes and feel that they can pick it up easily or that they're naturally talented at it. This is vastly true for many people. However, there are most definitly underlying concepts regarding colour, text, layout which have not been touched upon on these board since I've been here anyway.

beaver

then it will be time to split it. Splitting it too early would dilute both boards, you dont want that

But I believe in the case for the opposite. Mixing the two together reduces the amount to which we can concentrate on one topic.

I can't but agree that the Webmaster board is not particularly active - nonetheless, I'm sure it averages a few posts a day. These posts are almost invariably about code. My point, from a designers perspective, is that design itself deserves and merits a seperate forum.

Baz_

okay then I'll test it out okay, put two posts up, purely about design, and see what response I get, thats a good test, and I've been meaning to find out about it, but when I do find out, it means I have work, thats why ive been waiting.

beaver

That could work. Of course you've given away your motive, but we'll see... go for it.

beaver

Heh, right. I've just seen your posts and we're not on the same wavelength. Your not a designer Baz_ and while I completely appreciate your opinions I just don't think that they questions you asked in those two posts are exemplary.

Here, check these out. See what design is about...

http://www.alistapart.com
http://www.evolt.org
http://www.topica.com/lists/webdesignlist/
http://www.webdesign-l.com
http://www.designers-network.com

I'll offer my answers to your posts when the experiment is over...

dahamsta

okay then I'll test it out okay, put two posts up, purely about design, and see what response I get, thats a good test, and I've been meaning to find out about it, but when I do find out, it means I have work, thats why ive been waiting.

I'd just like to point out that I replied to Baz's post before I read this.


adam

beaver

So, five hours later there's one post. Pretty damn poor.

dahamsta

Beaver, aside from five hours being a pretty short period of examination, you're knocking a "test" you've already disregarded as not being exemplary, and the fact that no-one has posted here in support for your suggestion negates the test anyway. (No offense intended or implied, I'm just making a point.) Baz's point (and mine of course), is that (apparently) there simply isn't the demand for a design only forum at the moment. I honestly believe - and I have personal experience of this, I've been running forums and mailing lists for quite a while - that the creation of new forums without an appreciable demand can be damaging to the community, because it tends to fragment groups to the stage where boards (and lists) becomes unattractive. The recent discussion on the Tech section on a whole seems to demonstrate this - some people are unhappy with even the current level of fragmentation. That's not to say there's nothing you can do though. As I've already suggested, if I was you I would start posting about design on the Webmaster forum - there's nothing and no-one stopping you - and if it becomes busy the natural next step is to split it. And viola, you get your wish!

adam

beaver

No time. Disagree. Will reply in the morning.

havok*

I'm stuck in the middle of both arguments here,

While I think beaver is right in saying the aesthetics and pure design issues (not coding) should be kept seprate to the backend kinda work, I'm sad to say that i really cant see enuff demand for it @ the moment.

Beaver I know what ya mean, Art/Animation Board is too broad, a design only board whould be really kewl. But @ the mo theres only a handful of designers on the boards.

However, a solution (mabye)

Once we get off are arses and get Dearadh up and running , We could mabye set up a Dearadh board on the boards which would link from the site. ( Check out the LOTR site, wich has its own board on their site which is part of boards.ie )
This would get a "proper desgin form" going, plus bring alot of new ppl to the boards - everybodys happy


my 2 cents

amp

Beaver thinks that because webmaster is too broad it somehow stops people from talking about design and asethetics.

Nonsense.

Webmaster is designed to be broad so that people can talk about any aspect of creating/managing/designing a website without being off-topic. Hell, we'll even count discussions about different browsers.

The general rule of new boards is that if there is enough discussion about a particular aspect of the overall topic then is deserves a seperate board. This is not the case here, there is just enough traffic here to justify the Webmaster board and splitting it would imo be detrimental to both boards.

Gambler

I have to say, I am going to fall on the unpopular side of this fence...

I am definitly BACKEND only. I used to think I did up fairly ok Designs, but then I got to know some designers and found out I was really just an uppity muppet

I think WebMaster and WebDesign Roles have evolved into two COMPLETELY different arenas, don't get me wrong here either, I do know a lot of ppl that do both very well, the thing is that when I first started writing web-pages it was a lot simpler. There were tables and image tags and that was about it..

Now you have a whole other world of CSS and all those other funky tools you can use to make the page look the way you want it to as opossed to a page that is structured as best you can manage. With all these new technologies the subject has become too big to be bundled in with all the ASP\CGI Backend side of things.. There is just to much in there. I would love to have a WebMaster Board for all my "How do I get my ASP to do what it is supposed to" and a WebDesign Board for "How do I get my CSS to look the way it is supposed to"

I don't know any Web-Designers who would spend very long using the Webmaster board but who ARE actively searching for communities of Designers to exchange ideas and learn from..

Hmmm... I think I am starting to ramble so I am going to bow out now

smoke.me.a.kipper

how about renaming the existing board to 'web creation and design'. theres certainly not eneough traffic to have a split off board. hell the webmaster board is not exactly the busiest board in the place

beaver

amp:
Nonsense.

Well, it stops me dicussing design and aesthetics, so it's not nonsense. Not a great arguement you put forward for that case.

Webmaster is designed to be broad so that people can talk about any aspect of creating/managing/designing a website without being off-topic. Hell, we'll even count discussions about different browsers.

The role webmaster barely even exists anymore, amp, because it is too broad. The web is too demanding for one person to be able to cope competently with all the different aspects. Therefore there ought be seperate discussion areas. I believe that the demand for such fora would become obvious if they were given a chance. Baz_'s posts yesterday can be taken as an example - of the few replies there were only one actually dealt with design issues, the others talked about templates - no offense to those who posted, but that's laughable to a designer worth his salt in all fairness. And that might be useful for people starting off, but there are plenty of good designers out there who do not have the opportunity to interact with a learn from other designers.

This is not the case here, there is just enough traffic here to justify the Webmaster board and splitting it would imo be detrimental to both boards.

I'm not talking about splitting it. It's fine - it focuses on backend issues which is grand - it should probably be renamed to Web Development. My view is that there is a necessity for a Web Design board also.

dahamsta

Well, it stops me dicussing design and aesthetics, so it's not nonsense.

How?

adam

beaver

Because the people who read that board for the most part are not overly concerned with design issues. I could post there asking for a site critique, but I very much doubt that I'd receive the kind of comments on aesthetics that I'd be looking for.

There has been nothing posted on that board since I've been reading it to suggest that anyone there has any major interest in design. That is not conducive to discussion on the topic.

smoke.me.a.kipper

if theres no posts on the webmaster board for design what makes you think a web design board would work?? (no flame intended )

i think a simple re-naming might be in order. "web development and design"??

amp

You're missing the point Beaver.

Boards don't create discussions, people create discussions. If there are people discussing it enough then the board is made. If they're not, it isn't. If boards were created with out prior interest then there would be hundreds of empty boards.

Hey, I've no argument with anybody over the changing roles in today's internet for people involved in the construction/design/whatever of websites, I'm simply saying that there is not enough interest at the moment on the boards to justify creating a web design board. If there was, a lot more people would be supporting your proposal.

Who knows what the future may hold? With the population of boards increasing there may come a time when there is enough interest to warrent it. If so I'll be the first to endorse your product and/or service .

beaver

The mob has spoken. Fair enough. I still disagree with the points being made. I believe that boards do create discussion. It encourages people to post on the topic. It's a pity...

amp

I bet you play Tribes

beaver

You bet wrong.

Baz_

Originally posted by beaver
The mob has spoken.

I hate that attitude, because more than one person disagrees, its a mob, string 'im up like...

Originally posted by beaver
Fair enough. I still disagree with the points being made. I believe that boards do create discussion. It encourages people to post on the topic. It's a pity...

Boards dont create discussion, I think it is better the way you said it differently, in that a well chosen name can encourage discussion. I think that it may well be time to change the boards name, but a split is still off the cards IMO. I think there simply isnt a big enough pool of posters to warrant a seperate design board.

About the replies I received, I received exactly what I asked for, and in the design one, the people who replied guessed my level of experience quite accurately and didn't go overboard on instructions. I knew the website was shiit, I put it out there for all to critique, and I think I got enough replies to keep me busy for a while. I mean the site was perfectly fine, in so far as it was easily navigable, and I could have left it without critique until I had enough content to warrant a design overhaul, I mean nobody visits it anyway so the design doesn't matter. And yet I think I got perfectly good opinions of the state of the site at the moment and I am very happy with the feedback I received, and I'm pretty sure that if I had asked for more high level critiquing that I would have received it.

However, the fact remains that this is Boards.ie, its not webdesign.ie. I'm pretty sure that this is not where you come for all your own design problems, and I'm sure that if I stick at the whole website game I will eventually have a lot more resources to fall back on. The only way that I think boards.ie will have a concentrated enough group of users big enough to warrant such a board, is if havok[asterisk]'s idea is implemented. And in that case, I, like amp will have no qualms about coming to the admin forum to back you up in your request, but for now, I think it is too early.

Sorry if I appear mobbish, but I was trying to be polite and lucid, must have failed somewher, or maybe it was that amp fellow.

*Baz_ watches amp carefully.

beaver

I hate that attitude, because more than one person disagrees, its a mob, string 'im up like...

There's no "attitude" here, man. All I'm saying is that I'm in the vast minority. I see little point in continuing a campaign for this board. Nonetheless, I still disagree. I didn't suggest anyone was going to string up anyone else. Don't be looking for things to infer.

Boards dont create discussion, I think it is better the way you said it differently, in that a well chosen name can encourage discussion. I think that it may well be time to change the boards name, but a split is still off the cards IMO. I think there simply isnt a big enough pool of posters to warrant a seperate design board.

We're over that.

About the replies I received, I received exactly what I asked for, and in the design one, the people who replied guessed my level of experience quite accurately and didn't go overboard on instructions. I knew the website was shiit, I put it out there for all to critique, and I think I got enough replies to keep me busy for a while.

All that does, Baz_, is reinforce my theory that not many designers even bother reading the Webmaster board. That or they couldn't be bothered critiqing what you put up. As Bard said "what design?" - there's nothing to critique. This is why I feel your "tests" are negated.

As for your other post - it was just ridiculous. Certainly no professional design community would tolerate the idea of a question like "I need ideas for a site" without first explaining to them the target audience, purpose and goals of the site, timeframe, resources available, colour schemes you might have in mind, etc.

I mean the site was perfectly fine

No it wasn't. It uses liquid layout for the text which lets it stretch to 100% of the screen. That's just beautiful at 1600 pixels wide I can assure you. This was pointed out thank gawds. There was more or less no design considerations to think about. Extremely bad example.

in so far as it was easily navigable, and I could have left it without critique until I had enough content to warrant a design overhaul, I mean nobody visits it anyway so the design doesn't matter.

That's true. But, you're not a web design so I once again propose that these examples are useless. Unless you misunderstand the role of web designer, you'll know that it's a very detailed area.

And yet I think I got perfectly good opinions of the state of the site at the moment and I am very happy with the feedback I received, and I'm pretty sure that if I had asked for more high level critiquing that I would have received it.

Well, go for it. I mean, why didn't you ask for more... it's in the name of proving a point like...

However, the fact remains that this is Boards.ie, its not webdesign.ie. I'm pretty sure that this is not where you come for all your own design problems, and I'm sure that if I stick at the whole website game I will eventually have a lot more resources to fall back on.

Nor is it lotr.ie, afterhours.ie, technology.ie. Whatever point you're trying to make here is completely lost.

As to your future in design - I would question whether you will have a future in design if you stick at the "whole website game". The role of webmaster is dead. The creation of the web is a widely fragmented area. Christ, on big projects there are seperate people (even teams) looking after various seperate areas such as colour, photography, copy writing, layout, programming, databases, information architecture. It's a competitive area and you need to focus.

The only way that I think boards.ie will have a concentrated enough group of users big enough to warrant such a board, is if havok[asterisk]'s idea is implemented. And in that case, I, like amp will have no qualms about coming to the admin forum to back you up in your request, but for now, I think it is too early.

I understand that perfectly. I'm simply disagreeing with you.

Sorry if I appear mobbish, but I was trying to be polite and lucid, must have failed somewher, or maybe it was that amp fellow.

This has been a perfectly polite discussion. Please don't take the word mob as an insult. I meant the "crowd", the "majority".

-Ross

Baz_

Originally posted by beaver
I mean the site was perfectly fine

No it wasn't....

in so far as it was easily navigable, and I could have left it without critique until I had enough content to warrant a design overhaul, I mean nobody visits it anyway so the design doesn't matter.

That's true...

please don't do that, dont argue with half of my sentences, I had already stated that overall the site was shiit and I meant exactly what the sentence said. I was talking specifically about one aspect. [/B][/QUOTE]

Now you keep saying you disagree, and I'm not sure what exactly you are disagreeing about but if its about there being not enough demand, well then were are the people, why are they not posting here?

Taken for www.dictionary.com

mob (mb)n.

• 1. A large disorderly crowd or throng. See Synonyms at crowd1.
• 2. The mass of common people; the populace.
  Informal.
• 3. An organized gang of criminals; a crime syndicate.
  often Mob Organized crime. Often used with the: a murder suspect with links to the Mob.
• 4.An indiscriminate or loosely associated group of persons or things: a mob of boats in the harbor.
  Australian. A flock or herd of animals.

When I think of a mob, I think of meaning 1. Wasnt trying to infer anything that wasn't already.

amp

Next week on "When Muppets Collide" Beaver suggests that the Gaelige board be divided into gaeltachts, Baz_ continues to go on about whatever he's going on about, Smak suggests a compromise in the name: "Developement in the artistic areas of internet related pages and the actions required to make such a site possible", and DeVore finally decides that the whole lot should just STFU as it's getting on his tits.


*Stop looking at me Baz_

DeVore

Amp... how true.

Ok, here's a possible solution to this problem and to any similar problems with other boards.

I'm going to skillfully craft sticky threads on most if not all boards stating the purpose of the board in question. Then people will have a good idea whats on topic and whats not.

The problem as *I* see it is not one of boards-create-discussion versus discussion-creates-boards.... its that in the space allotted we do not have enough words (or even letters!) to adequately describe the boards purpose.

Each board really needs a charter as agreed by the regulars on the board in conjunction with the moderators and the admins.

I'll mail the mods and ask them to make a first stab at it each. That should clarify things a good bit.

Then, if someone want to post on Webmaster about artistic design issues, they can be sure that they are on topic and others will know that such topics are allowable and to be expected on that board.

DeV.

Cloud

Good idea DeV.

beaver

Really amp. I would have thought that a moderator might have behaved in a somewhat less sarcastic manner when the state of the boards is being discussed.

Your last few additions to this thread are trollish. If you don't like the thread don't bother taking part in it, eh?

Baz_, I meant no negativity when I said "mob". Don't be offended. The thing I disagree with is that a new board will not create discussion. From a designers perspective I see no reason to post to any board here with indepth web design related issues. If there were a specific area for this, I would. I can't help but feel that I am not alone.

So, the state of affairs remains the same. No design specific area will be created and so the dicussion of design here will most likely remain inactive.

amp

I hereby apologise to Beaver for any sarcastic comments I made. It is beneath my humble position as moderator of two boards and given that I have been on the boards for 2 years, and the greater internet for almost 7, I really should have known better.

Because I am a moderator, I should not have a sense of humour and should treat all muppets as if they had reasonable, valid points and not using subversive means to highlight their lack of a sense of humour.

PWEASE FORGIVE MEH BEAVER!!! PWEASE DON'T LET THIS RUIN R RELATIONSHIP!!! I KWON WEH CAN MAKE IT WORK!!!! I WUB YOU!

Tip: see that broomstick up your arse? pull it out, there's a good lad

beaver

[My last post on this thread]

Two boards? Two whole boards? Wow. I bow to you. And seven years? Why that makes you the Daddy of the internet. I had no idea how cool you were. Now I want to be like you. Seven years. I can't get over that. Do you have a fan club I could join? If you don't I could start one... I'm sure you're going to have lots of admirers now we know of your acheivements.

Furthermore, I'm just so glad that you pointed out that this entire thread was simply a plot by me to highlight my lack of a sense of humour. How did I not see that happening? It's so obvious now.

As for your own sense of humour. Well, I think this thread should be transferred to the Humour board. I mean, I for one was in stitches reading your posts. The subtle humour. O! The humanity!

Jesus, is that a broomstick - I thought I just had a rather bushy tail. Thanks. That's better. Now I can be a twat like you.

amp

Wow such a lot of questions to answer.
At last, the respect I deserve. Well the fan club is actually approaching readiness under the leadership of Renton. Posters, t-shirts and mugs will be available with the my avatar on them and an appropriate catchphrase.

I'm glad you have realised the error of your ways, I only hope that others will learn from this.

Regarding your calling me a twat: I've only just changed my .sig to include Ropedrinks excellent description of me, another change would only serve to confuse, but rest assured I shall include it in the future.

Thanks for playing,
amp

Renton

Gettem girls !!!

/me looks at his angry broomstick wielding mob

/me points at Beaver

/me forsees the destruction of Beaver

DadaKopf

Wellety, wellety, wellety. Beaver, I'm with you on the whole web design aspect of discussion on related boards. It simply isn't done but not because there's no board for it, simply because most people haven't an interest or inclination to discuss it.

Suppose you got a Web Design board set up, no one would use it.

As amp [I think] said, boards don't make discussions, people do. The Webmaster board, in my opinion, is a good umbrella board for the whole web-making process and it just wouldn't work to have more boards - there are enough as it is.

I'm more than happy and very interested in discussing design issues on websites, the only reason I never stick up topics myself is because I know they won't get any replies.

Just start discussions and they'll come. I'll help you - but keep the Webmaster board as it is.

Karma

Ladies... please.

Amp, put that troll away.

A solution has been decided on which we'll try.

Thread locked before it descends into madness.

DeV.

DeVore

Was logged in as flatmate. Doh.

Closed now.

DeV.