Those American Terrorists....

bonkey

Watching some CNN show last night, where they were discussing what shoul dbe done with young J.Walker. There was some ex-military bloke who wanted him hung drawn and quartered (I exaggerate slightly) as a traitor, while the lawyer was trying to calmly explain why Walker may not actually be guilty of any crime according to US law.

Anyway, towards the end of the piece, as people went off on tangents, someone made a very good point....what about the American terrorists?

Family Planning clinics (which I assume is the politically correct term for abortion clinics) get bombed or burned down on a regular basis in the US, and those working in them are frequently attacked. Nurses have had acid thrown in their faces. In the South, there are still cases of "black churches" (his term, not mine) being burned.

Now, whatever about the latter which could be classed as racism or racial hatred, the bombinb and burning of clinics, and the attacking of those who work there due to religious or ideological differences is a form of terrorism.

So - with the US on its high horse to rid the world of terrorism, will it turn its eyes to its own domestic terrorism, or will this be ignored for some reason?

jc

Baz_

troll...

Well worded but,

troll...

bonkey

Baz - no, it isnt a troll.

America has gone out of their way to make anti-terrorism a high-profile international issue.

Depending on who you listen to, and what the topic at hand is, you will get a different story as to what terrorism exactly is being targetted.

However, the basic fact is that actions like the ones I described ar occurring in the US, and are not classified as terrorism.

Why are the people who systematically target abortion clinics for destruction in an organised fashion not classed as terrorists? They attack innocent people, and destroy infrastructural resources, purely because of an ideological difference.

If you still consder this a troll, fine, just answer two questions :

1) Why is this not terrorism?
2) If it is terrorism, why is it not a visibly high-priority for the US in their current fight against terrorism? Surely their first step would be to get their own house in order?

jc

Gargoyle

As someone else said, you'll probably never be able to account for the lone Timothy McVeigh types. All you can do is try to root out the organizations like Al Queda.

Stopping terrorism all together is unrealistic. With dedication, intelligence, force, and patience, however, I believe you can eliminate or drastically reduce the organizations like Al Queda or, yes, Hamas (gasp!).

swiss

However, those involved in such attacks are part of an organisation. Thus, by that rationale, they can be classed as part of a terrorist organisation. This definition may appear contrived or pedantic, but given Dubya's pledge to 'root terrorism out' one can wonder why his attitude in relation to domestic trouble is not nearly as belligerent as his attitude towards the Al Qu'aeda (sp?) network.

This, in my view, borders on hypocrasy, and demonstrates double standards in American politics. These same double standards are evidenced in the US's policies towards Israel/Palestine.

It reduces their moral 'supremacy' and severely undermines their motives in relation to their 'war' in both afghanistan and their war of words with Iraq.

Just my 2c on a busy Friday afternoon.

Gargoyle

If those individuals are found to be part of a terrorist organization withing the US, I expect that the full power of law enforcement would "root out" that organization, provided they had the intelligence to know where it was.

The difference comes when you're dealing with countries who are either unwilling to eliminate terrorist cells for whatever reason, or unable to eliminate them.

bonkey

Originally posted by Gargoyle
If those individuals are found to be part of a terrorist organization withing the US, I expect that the full power of law enforcement would "root out" that organization, provided they had the intelligence to know where it was.

The difference comes when you're dealing with countries who are either unwilling to eliminate terrorist cells for whatever reason, or unable to eliminate them.

I fail to see the difference.

The US has groups withing it who are performing organised terrorist acts. The US has failed or is unwilling to declare these people as terrorists.

So - and here is the simple question - is it terrorism? If it is, then America is as guilty of harbouring and shielding terrorists in its own nation as any other nation which it seeks to point fingers at. The only difference is that these terrorists do not work on an international level.

I am not saying that the US is wrong to seek the end of Al Qaeda and Hamas, just that it should get its own house in order as well...

If, on the other hand, these acts are not organised terrorist acts, then I would like to know where the difference lies.

jc

Typedef

Originally posted by swiss

This, in my view, borders on hypocrasy, and demonstrates double standards in American politics. These same double standards are evidenced in the US's policies towards Israel/Palestine.

It reduces their moral 'supremacy' and severely undermines their motives in relation to their 'war' in both afghanistan and their war of words with Iraq.

Just my 2c on a busy Friday afternoon.

Moral supremecy, what a riot. The USA has been toppeling, installing, murdering and creating dictators, puppet governments and banana republics for the last 100 years, moral supremecy, pull the other one. The only supremecy the US posesses is the large number of troops, planes, warships and nuclear weapons, moral supremecy that's laughable.

Fact is this conflict is a show-war, much like the 100 hour war against Iraq, it serves the purpose of revanche that the US political right wing has fostered and it distracts the attention of the American and World's attention from the utter collapse that has happened in the US economy over the last year. Oh I almost forgot the war gives jobs and money to GWB's masonic buddies in the armaments industry. So you see eveyone is a winner, except of course for those Muslim mud-people in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine, but hey you can't make an omlett right?

Sand

Originally posted by Typedef
it distracts the attention of the American and World's attention from the utter collapse that has happened in the US economy over the last year.

When the September 11th attacks had already done that? And utter collapse? Please.

Oh I almost forgot the war gives jobs and money to GWB's masonic buddies in the armaments industry.

I thought it was the oil industry that was supposed to be his puppet masters?

So you see eveyone is a winner, except of course for those Muslim mud-people in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine,

Those being targeted in afghanistan are muslim fundamentalist terrorists, not mud people- whoever they are.

Bonkey Im picking up that youre more concerned with the fact that theyre not officially labeled terrorists?

Gargoyle

Originally posted by bonkey


I fail to see the difference.

The US has groups withing it who are performing organised terrorist acts. The US has failed or is unwilling to declare these people as terrorists.

jc

Who are these groups? Are they groups or people acting alone? I definitely think abortion clinic attacks should be quelled. Keep in mind, however, we are talking about vastly different goals of the two types of terrorism. One type of terrorism seeks to prevent people from having access to abortions. The other type seeks to anhilliate our country, and kill all our people.

Hobbes

When the September 11th attacks had already done that? And utter collapse? Please.

The US was on the edge of a massive recession, despite being in one now the 9/11 attacks distracted it quite nicely and a lot of businesses blamed it on the attacks then the actual causes.

Go back through the posts on the humanities boards a few months before the attacks and you will see discussions on the recession and it's possible causes.

I thought it was the oil industry that was supposed to be his puppet masters?

I thought it was Col Saunders running the show? Anyway Bush isn't a freemason. He is a skull and bones chap though.

One type of terrorism seeks to prevent people from having access to abortions. The other type seeks to anhilliate our country, and kill all our people.

Hmm, so it's ok to throw acid into nurses faces because they are American and they don't want to kill *our* people? Btw, Anthrax letters? Old news, apparantly abortion clinics have been getting them mailed to them for years.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Hobbes


Hmm, so it's ok to throw acid into nurses faces because they are American and they don't want to kill *our* people? Btw, Anthrax letters? Old news, apparantly abortion clinics have been getting them mailed to them for years.

Hmm... hobbes, I re-read my post a couple times to try and figure out how you could put these words into my mouth based on what I said, but its still beyond me. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten?

Sharkey

Originally posted by bonkey
Watching some CNN show last night, where they were discussing what shoul dbe done with young J.Walker. ... Family Planning clinics (which I assume is the politically correct term for abortion clinics) get bombed or burned down on a regular basis in the US, and those working in them are frequently attacked. Nurses have had acid thrown in their faces. In the South, there are still cases of "black churches" (his term, not mine) being burned.

FYI : The reports of Black Churches being burned is semi-true. Some churches were burned, a percentage of them "black" churches, but there was no pattern of racial hatred behind those burnings -- and I believe the majority of arsenist were black,

Regarding the Clinics and medical workers -- there's a body of law already in place -- Arson, assault, battery, murder etc that treat these creeps as the criminals they are.

Regarding Walker -- Personally, I think he should answer to the Afghans as he was killing their people on their soil. Accoordingly, let the Afghans mete their justice.

Sand

Hobbes: The recession was caused by what causes most recessions- failing confidence in the economy. And the economy had been an issue since the presidential election. 9/11 certainly wrenched the medias attention from the economy, but that mightnt be a bad thing ( Youll find the recession will continue as long as people feel theres a recession and will end when people start feeling confident again and start spending), and it seems highly unlikely that the first thing Bush said when he heard about the attacks was "woohoo, finnaly got those bastards off my back about the economy".

Hobbes

I wish I could find the thread again sand but it was a lot more complicated then that. Part had been of the presidential election (although why it's beyond me, Corporations tend to have more power then the president).

Other factors was the .com collapse, caused by people wasting massive amounts of money in the hopes of either getting rich on the IPO's or getting bought out by another company. Very few of internet companies had actual viable products.

Another was internet advertising (which does not work) caused massive problems, especially after the Sam Jain incident, a lot of advertising companies refused to pay the sites while threatening them of taking what they own.

Then there was the self fulfilling prophesy. Companies were warned of a slow down, so they tucked in their belts and spent less. Because of this less products where bought generating less cash for companies. One very good example of this was the airlines. Most companies cut back on business travel (certainly business class) which hammered the airline companies so much that a lot of them where planning to lay off 1000's or file for bankruptcy. In fact 9/11 was a godsend for them as the goverment gave them a bail out fund.

Then there was the day traders as well. In some cases companies where put out of business due to day trading. Palm is certainly a good example of what day trading can do.

lucindrea

hmmm

Law - abortion is legal
Law - to protest above law is legal including trying to convince others to not get an abortion.
Illegal - to use any method that hurts others or others property to protest said law will land you in a 6X6 cell.
Illegal - to form an organization that promotes the use of illegal activities will land you in a 6X6 cell.

So what happens is you have an abortion clinic ... you have protestors outside ... every so often you get 1 nut case that assaults the women going into the clinic or a doctor or the property of the clinic itself ... these people GO TO JAIL .... the us does not in anyway incorrouge this ... any group that does is promptly shut down and in most cases the leaders go to jail.

There is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion for or agenst the rest of society or forming an origination that does so .... BUT once you perform any illegal act to enforce your opinion you have stepped over the line.

The "terrorist" originations that the US is going after promote violence ... the anti-abortion originations do not promote violence ... but I do believe their are LOTS of people in Afghanistan that do not like violence ( I like to think most ) and their always is 1 or 2 nutz in an anti-abortion group that do.

Hobbes

try doing a search for "abortion clinics attacks" and see how long it's been going on. Years. Yet send a couple of the same type of letters to the goverment and they actually do something about it.

American

Originally posted by bonkey
Watching some CNN show last night,

Also know here as the Communist News Network or the Clinton News Network as you don't generally see on this show people who can articulate well the conservative or Republican viewpoint, thus their discussion groups have typically been with sell out or knuckle-draggers representing our views.

..what about the American terrorists?
Family Planning clinics get bombed or burned down on a regular basis in the US, and those working in them are frequently attacked. Nurses have had acid thrown in their faces.

You got some stats of the frequency or the total number of such crimes being committed? And have you got some stats on the sentences these perpetrators got? Far as I know anyone caught is put in jail or given a death sentence if there are special circumstances to the crime of murder.

will it turn its eyes to its own domestic terrorism, or will this be ignored for some reason?
jc

Name me a specific case that is being ignored?

adnans

Originally posted by Gargoyle
As someone else said, you'll probably never be able to account for the lone Timothy McVeigh types.

wasnt timothy part of the US army and some militia group in America?

adnans

American

Originally posted by adnans
wish a robot would get elected president. That way, when he came to town, we could all take a shot at him and not feel too bad.
adnans

I wonder how they felt in Shirley Jackson's short story The Lottery after they elected someone, then immediately stoned them to death.

adnans

what the hell does my signature which came from mr jack handy's archive of deep thoughts has anything to do with the current topic? if you have anything meaningful to post please do so. to asses my signature, please start another thread.

just a note for any future arguments. we dont hate america and its people. most of us like to think that it is the most cultural place on earth. its a free country where people can live their lives in peace knowing that they can persue their future without oppression and mistreatment. on the other hand, the people, induviduals, parties that have a say in the US government are, in my opinion, not the most intellectual thinkers when it comes to the policies regarding the whole world. even though their heart may be in the right place, their actions do not show that. they appear justified when so many crimes are unanswered and just moved aside.

so lets not just comment on the signatures while ignoring the whole post please.

adnans