Israel waving it's nukes at the Arabs

Hobbes

Unbelivable, and I see they said they didn't want UN observers to be sent to Palistine.

Manach

Intersting article, given the fact that would and have taken steps to prevent Arab countries acquring similar technology (ie the air strikes in the 80s on Iraqi nuclear facilities).

Chaos-Engine

Given Israel's unpredictable nature and the fact that they have Nukes. Would this not classify it as the USA's worst enemy...
"A ROGUE STATE WITH NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES"

GoneShootin

another exuse for bush to spend more money on the war machine

JustHalf

Explain how Israel is a rogue state, Chaos-Engine.

Victor

The agreement with France was unprecedented. Until then, no country had supplied another with the means for developing a nuclear capability. Mr Karpin believes that Mr Peres may have been motivated to speak on the subject because he hopes that it will help to secure his place in history.

Not 100% accurate - the 'plundering' of Germany in the last days of WWII gave Russia, the UK and the USA a substantial boost - including the capture of 520kg of Uranium on the German submarine U-234. The Geermans may not have 'helped' the creation of the American bombs, but they did end up supplying a fair bit of the Uranium.

GoneShootin

came across this :

http://www3.sympatico.ca/sworker/356-12-Israel.html

JustHalf

Victor, the new pedantic man!

Gone Shootin, that article can't be used to prove that Israel is a rogue state. It only refers to it as a rogue state, it doesn't prove that it is one.

And for God's sake, when did Israel begin ethnic cleansing?

Ah, the new thinking -- thinking as far as is politically convenient.

Victor

Originally posted by JustHalf
Victor, the new pedantic man!

I've been pedantic all along.

Originally posted by JustHalf
Gone Shootin, that article can't be used to prove that Israel is a rogue state. It only refers to it as a rogue state, it doesn't prove that it is one.

To be fair, it potrays many of the features of a 'rogue state' (death penalty, assassination, military zones of occupation, excessive expenditure on weapons ...). The difference is (a) it has a major sponsor (b) it also has characteristics of a non-rogue (nominal democracy, open trade, ...). I would say it is borderline.

Originally posted by JustHalf
And for God's sake, when did Israel begin ethnic cleansing?

Between 1946-48, Israeli militias forced the residents out of quite a few border villages.

Originally posted by JustHalf
Ah, the new thinking -- thinking as far as is politically convenient.

Any chance of fewer personal insults?

Sand

Hmm Im not sure how having the death penalty makes you a rogue state- possibly by the definitions of Brussels but?

Assassinations (Before anyone comes steaming in here with a post about the right to decide, the justice systems, and so and so forth I am talking in general terms, so keep your Israel is the spawn of Satan speech to yourself) are a matter of curiosity to me. Whats the difference between killing an enemy and assassinating him? He ends up just as dead? You might say theyre picking a specific individual to kill but a sniper will tend to kill an officer first to weaken an enemies command structure - Is the sniper an assassin? Assassination seems to be another word for picking out a specific enemy and killing him to deny his abilities and resources to the other side. The US, which is not a 'rogue state' (Thats not meant as a troll but Im sure its a red flag to some) , has carried out assassinations in the past, and is attempting them now (who seriously believes Bin Laden will be taken alive? ) and assassinations in the future against identified terrorists are hardly unlikely, regardless of what theyre called.

I cant argue with the milatary occupation zones, but excessive expenditure on weapons? Wouldnt you say appropriate given Israels security needs?

As regards the nukes, their proliferation is wrong but the cat was let out of the bag and there is little that can be done about it- Israel will certainly not relinquish the deterrence supplied by the nukes so long as its security is threatened by its Arab neighbours.

Winning Hand

Originally posted by Sand
The US, which is not a 'rogue state' (Thats not meant as a troll but Im sure its a red flag to some) , has carried out assassinations in the past, and is attempting them now (who seriously believes Bin Laden will be taken alive? ) and assassinations in the future against identified terrorists are hardly unlikely, regardless of what theyre called.I cant argue with the milatary occupation zones, but excessive expenditure on weapons? Wouldnt you say appropriate given Israels security needs?

Actually if I remember right america has long relinquished the right to assasinate enemies. The reason im saying this is a few days after sept 11 there were discussions on d'telly about why not just assasinate bin ladin, the reply being that america cannot carry them out, but that maybe they were gonna call in a few favours from mossad to do the work.

At any rate the nukes are not a deterrant towards palestine (this is half intended as a joke before you all go off on it) as palestine is full of jewish settlements. "Shooting oneself in the foot" is an accurate description.

Instead they seem to be directed more towards countries like Egypt, Iraq and Syria.

What I find to be most confusing about the whole thing is that France of all people were the ones who supplied the information, seeing as the french have a large arab connection.

DadaKopf

What makes you think that Mosad would be the ones to carry out assasinations and not the CIA? People are pretty naive if they think the US has altogether abandoned state assassinations, of course they still happen. The CIA, Mosad, US funded militias, it's all the same result in the end.

And in other news, it's become known that Eritrea and Ethiopia has signed a 'secret' deal with the US. In return for financial support, both countries have agreed to a limited number (4 at last count) of US bases on the coast and on islands of both countries. The decision by America was taken because they fear the Saudis will fall into Mullah rule in the near future - possibly within six months. America, realising a lot of people in that area tend not to like her, has decided to expand military influence! Just in case like. Needless to say, it's all been hushed up. The Yanks are the good guys, arent they.

Kind of ironic that, while on one hand Bush is justifiably attempting to make the US more self-sufficient and isolationist, his administration is furthering their iron grip on the middle-east.

Rogue State, indeed.

Typedef

The definition of a 'rouge state' is a state that has been deemed to be 'rouge' by the USA, that's pretty simple don't you think? Hmm so the French supplied 'some' military technology to the Israelis, not all, who is the biggest military supporter of Israel, yes you guessed it, the USA. Who invented atomic weapons? Yes you guessed it again, the USA.

I have to laugh, Israeli security needs apparently need to label Yassir Arafat as 'irrelevant', so according to the Israeli government, the most prominent Palestinian in the world, the media face of Palestine is 'irrelevant', that is a great point of reference for starting a dialogue no? Irrelevant.

As regards the nukes, their proliferation is wrong but the cat was let out of the bag and there is little that can be done about it- Israel will certainly not relinquish the deterrence supplied by the nukes so long as its security is threatened by its Arab neighbours.

So it's ok for Israel to develop nuclear weapons, because all of the irrational and 'irrelevant' arabs that surround Israel are hell bent on the destruction of Israel, but watch out, if the French don't sell you nuclear technology with American blessing to defend yourself from those mad Arabs(who have way too much oil), or worse yet, if you are Arabs, then that makes you a 'rouge state' not fit to develop nuclear weapons(presumably because Arabs just don't have those sort of security concerns), much like Pakistan(which is a military dictatorship, not one of those pagan Muslim states) was until "we" needed use of their airspace to "smoke out" the "terrorists" in Afghanistan, right, sure.

So just so everyone is clear on this Israel who has been flouting the UN and the mainstream of international opinion for the last fifity years or so is the appropiate sort of regieme to develop nuclear weapons, because of the 'Arab' threat.

Of course the benevolent Israelis can be trusted to use thier nukes wisely, ask the UN if you don't believe me.

excerpt Israel

UN resolutions, which now number 66, contain the international community's list of indictments against the Jewish state. The basic issues were all spelled out even before the 1967 Security Council resolution calling for a land-for-peace settlement

The core issues, as contained in resolutions passed before 1967, remain the Palestinian refugee problem, the status of Jerusalem, and the location of Israel's boundaries. These are the basic issues. They spring from 1948, not 1967.

The early U.N. resolutions call for Israel to repatriate or compensate the original 750,000 refugees of 1948-9 and to renounce Jerusalem as its capital and regard it as a corpus separatum, an international city dominated by neither Arab nor Israeli. (The U. S. position on Jerusalem is slightly different and, not surprisingly, closer to Israel's. It says Jerusalem should not be a divided city and its final status should be decided by the parties.) Finally, the original U.N. partition of Palestine awarded Israel an area only about three-quarters of its current official size. Israel's increase was gained at the expense of the Palestinians in the earlier conquests of 1948.

Of course Israel is not a 'rouge-state', no, no, no, you have to heckle the USA to attain that kind of derision. No instead Israel is a "democracy" to paraphrase the Americans, no arguing with logic like that eh?

Sand

Instead they seem to be directed more towards countries like Egypt, Iraq and Syria.

Im pretty sure thats what I meant when I said arab neighbours as opposed to the palestinians.

Im aware the US has officially abandoned assassination (think it was Nixon who banned it- not sure). However it seems pretty clear to me given Bushs "dead or alive" stance that Bin Laden will not be taken alive unless he is incredibly lucky.

As stated in the quoted article France at the time saw Israel as an ally against a common Arab threat (France in North Africa and Israel against everybody else). I dont belive France had a significant Arab population at that time- If youre arsed looking up French demographics for the past 50 years then you deserve the right to correct me:)

Type if you say Israel is a rogue state then its good enough for me. No arguing with logic like that.

Boston

Typedef opinions are all impowering, and you would want to be on the ball to argue with him, though i have seeen him say some pretty daft things.

either which way, isreal fires off nukes then the whole middle east is fubared

Sand

I agree Boston. I truly met my match in the shape of Typedef. I mean if he has a groupie then he must be right, right?

Boston

whos that then, i speak as someone whos been on the recieving end of this razor sharp insight. it wasnt pretty

Typedef

Originally posted by Sand
I agree Boston. I truly met my match in the shape of Typedef. I mean... ..he must be right, right?

Well said.
Kool, the myth of the strongman, I think I will run for dictator, yes, yes, you may call me Il-Duce. Also,I now feel it only proper to reveal that yes, my real name is Michael Noonan and yes, I want to be the next Taoiseach.
My first acts as benevolant leader will be to
1. Go to war with Britain
2. Tax shoes
3. Expell Israelis from the West Bank
4. Return the Sun to the sky.
5. Never again allow those pagan Muslim's steal the Sun.
6. All women must report to the Leader's regal palace of equality in the Phoenix park, so that they may be classified and begin producing beautiful arian... eh I mean Irish babies by the dozen.

Mein Fuhrer I can walk.


THOUGHTCRIME

Sand

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
i speak as someone whos been on the recieving end of this razor sharp insight.

Hmm have i underestimated you Boston, cos your displaying a great sense of humour:)

JustHalf

Originally posted by Typedef
yes, yes, you may call me Il-Duce.

[tripe deleted]

gandalf

Justhalf I have deleted your last post you know why. I am also closing this thread as its has run its course.

Gandalf.