Opinion and suggestions...

murcielago

Since you conveniently left out ..
What gives you the right ...?
pointing out that your analogy was flawed ..
Are you suggesting ...?
I hve no idea how the committee puts up with this sort of thing

Dahamsta

I consider all the above part sentences and part questions to be highly insnsitive and therefore offensive in polite dialogue. Each one contains the word you or your. Pointing out conjures up the pointing of a finger at me. I am accused of unethical behaviour. I have conveniently left out .. and so on.
The most offensive of all is an implied reprimand in 'I have no idea ..' and an implication that I have been an unhelpful, troublesome and unconstructive contributor.

People who have behaved in this way in the past have been tolerated for too long. I had thought that a change was in the air.

BTW dahamsta how many previous posters have you rebuked other than those who used obscene language or advocated illegal activity? There are different ways for dealing with ignorant people. I choose mine.

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
I consider all the above part sentences and part questions to be highly insnsitive and therefore offensive in polite dialogue. Each one contains the word you or your. Pointing out conjures up the pointing of a finger at me.

I'm sorry. Any hope of further intelligent discourse just went out the window.

Comedy Gold.

murcielago

Dahamsta,

Please check your PM box

NeilF

Originally posted by murcielago
polite dialogue

:eek:

murcielago

quote from Pete.

Several posts over time have asked the perfectly reasonable question as to why anyone should want to be an officer or committee member of IOFFL.

A similar question is put day-in-day out in relation to practically every voluntary group in this country and abroad.

It is an entirely proper question to make. It is also proper and relevant to try to find a general proposition to try to explain the phenomenon. There is a body of research into the topic.

Murcielago

pete

Muriel,

About 3 posts back you made it abundantly clear that you are a complete and utter *bleep*. Nothing you are saying has any relevance to the *bleep* I called you on.

Nothing.

I pointed out a flaw in your argument. I asked you some simple questions. You chose to move the goalposts.

End of discussion.

Nobody cares.

Go to bed.

Goodnight,
pete

ps you were possibly right about the finger bit - except it's not quite pointing at you....

(edited for a bit of self-censorship)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by murcielago
Several posts over time have asked the perfectly reasonable question as to why anyone should want to be an officer or committee member of IOFFL.

For me it is mainly because I support the goals of IOFFL and I think I can contribute contribute towards these goals.

dahamsta

Pete, murcielago,

Do me a favour and either stop arguing or take it elsewhere, please. Private Messaging, Recycle Bin, wherever, I don't care, just somewhere else.

Thanks,
adam

pete

Originally posted by dahamsta
Pete, murcielago,

Do me a favour and either stop arguing or take it elsewhere, please. Private Messaging, Recycle Bin, wherever, I don't care, just somewhere else.

Thanks,
adam

edit: actually scratch that last comment. I took it too far, and i apologise. I guess i don't take too well to being insulted.

murcielago

I thought I had sent this post earlier but it doesn't appear to show. My PC seems to have new yearitis

1. You are paying Eircom to provide a service
2. Commercial v. Voluntary
3. Move the goalposts

1. True. A more general concept is that I want and am getting a benefit from Eircom (in exchange for cash - the benefit Eircom gets from me). I want also a benefit from being here on IOFFL; otherwise I would not waste time, effort and expense. The same concept of having a need to satisfy and having it satisfied (by another) in exchange for something that I give is known as an exchange of benefits. This is the kernal of what marketing (which includes negotiation) is all about.

Does IOFFL want my support and that of all its members? And does IOFFL want to increase the overall membership? I would hope the answer is yes to both questions. This is an example of marketing in practice. And all the tools of marketing should be considerd for use as appropriate. I do not wish to give an opportunity for another negative comment. But I must confirm that I like many others have made contributions that do not appear here. Even the few planned puny posts I did make here did involve some reflection and effort. Obviously, you are not in sympathy with anything I have posted, but hopefully somebody did benefit. I do not go along with the concept that in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed person is not alone king but doesn't want or need input from anybody else.

2. Commercial v. Voluntary
Has anybody bothered to study the structure of the Irish economy? How much of our GDP is accounted for by the services delivered by voluntary undertakings. Such research has been done elsewhere. Neither economists (other than partial economists) or marketing professionals make any artificial distinction beween services and goods provided by commercial as distinct from Voluntary organisations. For many years some economists (and the revenue commissioners) did tend to ignore benefits in kind.

3. Move the goalposts
As 1 & 2 should show I have not moved the goalposts perceived by me when I came into this field. When others do not see the entire field, that is not a problem of my making but nevertheless it does concern me when their myopia causes them to impact negatively on what I am trying to achieve for IOFFL. I do take seriously my obligation to reciprocate benefit to all who may visit here and also the thousands who may never hear of IOFFL.

Finally excuse any errors of spelling or syntax. It is late and I am properly advised to go to bed.

Thanks to anybody who has attended to this post. And BTW this is not a considered post on voluntary organisations

Prosperous and peaceful New Year to all

Murcielago


Dahamsta; this post has been in preparation for some time and in-between interruptions. It is intended to be informative and explanatory as requested by Pete. The content is important in its own right

Phantom XP

OK. There is lot to comment on. Everyone wants to do their bit or else they wouldn't be here ? But forum is too small for all head in one room.

[Bard: No, this forum is NOT too small]

Join up @ [ URL DELETED] and contribute or dont contribute! Argue or not argure! Have degree or not have degree! etc ...

[Bard: You were BANNED, Medion. Why can't you get that into your skull? Please stop re-creating accounts. Every post you make to advertise this other forum will be either wiped, or like in this case, edited, and your account re-banned.]

If IOFFL is going to ask more members to leave this forum yet again ?

[Bard: We never asked anyone to leave this forum. Some were banned for offensive behaviour, others just left of their own accord.]

Could you please tell them "Goto [URL DELETED]" instead of telling them to go nowhere!

[Bard: Eh, no... we won't. Thanks for the suggestion all the same :rolleyes: ]

That way the members you dont want are still working towards the same goal as IOFFL and supporting another organisaition with the same goals of IOFFL!

[Bard: No, that way they are supporting you... and you have been a disruptive and abusive element on our forum and don't seem to support the way we go about achieving our goals, which we believe is the right way- so don't expect any support in return from IOFFL or its members]

Lastly but not least! Later news reports from DACS! Director is looking to mount evidance aginst Eircom for civil preceedings and personally levying the fees if backed by members.

[Bard: Ah. Nice to know you can read the papers too.... you see,... the news that IOFFL reports is news that IOFFL has been instrumental in creating. Lets wait and see what REAL news you *generate*... ]

We will not wait for the rabbit to come from the hole!
We are sending the ferrits in!

[Bard: That's nice. Now get out. Medions (latest) account "Phantom XP" now banned from IOFFL board.]

Thank you![/url]

Bard

Originally posted by dahamsta
Phactom XP, this has also been discussed, but as it happens our priority is to set up a virtual voting booth for the committee, as holding votes on our mailing list has been somewhat awkward. A voting booth for the membership was mentioned too, but it would only be used for vital matters. The first thing we need to do in this case is to reorganise the membership into a proper database, and this is in-hand - I'll be working on it myself next week.

FYI, ... Phantom XP = Medion = banned (yet again).

murcielago

Some Notes on why people join committees

People are normally chosen to serve on business committees either by virtue of the position that they hold, e.g. Personnel Manager, or because they are regarded as particularly suitable to serve on the committee.

People do not normally serve on voluntary committees unless they have volunteered or at least signified willingness to do so. Among the reasons why people are willing to serve on committees without payment are:
1. Keen interest in the subject matter and a desire to correct abuses or devise reforms;
2. Family tradition;
3. Sense of duty;
4. Sociability and desire to conform, if one's friends are already serving on the committee and invite them to join on it;
5. Desire to fill in time and to make oneself useful. This is most likely for retired people and middle-aged housewives.

On rare occasions, the dominating motive may be self-interest. More frequently, while other motives are dominant, a person may not be wholly uninfluenced by the hope that one may be able to do his family or friends a bit of good. It is only fair to add that, if such motives are in fact put into effect and become apparent, the person usually fails to secure re-election.

Whatever other reasons one may have for wishing to join a committee, a motive that is certain to be present to a lesser or greater extent is desire for increased power, influence and prestige. Were it not for this motive, very few voluntary committees would be fully manned. Up to a point this motive may be beneficial. The desire for recognition as a good committee member is likely to prompt a person to be more alert, interested and energetic than one would be otherwise, and quite modest success and recognition may suffice to keep him/her content. The danger comes when the desire for power becomes the dominant motive. The need grows with what it feeds on until nothing less than steadily increasing recognition and power will satisfy the person concerned. One will no longer be content to be an ordinary committee member, but will expect to become Chairman or at least to be acknowledged as a specially valuable and important member, to be consulted as a matter of course on all points. Often such persons get on more committees can they can cope with. Their judgement thus becomes less and less valuable, while they still retain disproportionate influence and prestige. A person who obtains a powerful position in this way may succeed in dominating the committee when present, but it is interesting to note that when not present his/her views, if known, are usually voted against: this shows the latent antagonism of other members of the group.

Some people on the other hand with no craving for power, become inveigled into joining several committees through a combination of a sense of duty and inability to say No. They find themselves drawn into a seemingly endless round of meetings, in much the same way that other people become entangled in hire purchase repayments. No sooner has one committee finished its work than they become involved with another. For meetings to become a burden rather than a pleasure should be taken by the person concerned as a warning signal that s/he has perhaps joined too many committees and should take stock of the position, concentrating on those in which one is really interested and seeking an opportunity to retire gracefully from any others. Like all good resolutions, however, this may be more easily taken than carried out.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by murcielago
Some Notes on why people join committees

Thanks for the psychology lesson.

Has everyone got the committee-sniping out of their systems yet? Can we get back to discussing issues relevant to IrelandOffline?

Thanks.

murcielago

Has everyone got the committee-sniping out of their systems yet? Can we get back to discussing issues relevant to IrelandOffline

OscarBravo et al
That is the whole point of my post and related antecedent ones.
Hopefully, we can get on towards making progress on achieving the aims and objectives of IrelandOffline. All the spurious arguments, nauseating strings of obscenities, vulgarities, reprimands and one-up-manship have done nothing but damage for IrelandOffline and more importantly for the objectives that IOFFL espouses. But telecommunications in Ireland are too important to be left to a small select minority of Thought Police who want to exclude inputs from others who do not belong to their own particular culture, discipline or cliques. We need several more lessons in areas such as economics and marketing before we can claim to have an informed, effective and responsible membership. I hope in due course to post relevant material to the relevant thread

I had always presumed the moderators determined relevance. Please excuse my lack of familiarity with the medium.

Thanks for your kind attention

Murcielago

PS. Do I detect an accusation against me of sniping against the committee? If so you are gravely mistaken. If and when I want to take issue with the committee members, individually or collectively I will do so openly and in a proper ,manner.

M

o_donnel_abu

Originally posted by murcielago
PS. Do I detect an accusation against me of sniping against the committee? If so you are gravely mistaken.

Glad you clarified that.

Your post, though, is a good example how an Off Topic subject can cause a flame war here.

The purpose of this forum is (or at least is supposed to be ) for discussion of IOFFL and matters relating directly to it.

When you post a lengthy analysis of committees and the things that go on, the natural inference is that it is targeted at the IOFFL committee.

I accept that this was not your intention and I'm not "having a go" at you, just pointing out how easy its is for people to misinterpret something and cause an unnecessary diversion.

Martin Harran

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
Do I detect an accusation against me of sniping against the committee?

Yes.

But telecommunications in Ireland are too important to be left to a small select minority of Thought Police who want to exclude inputs from others who do not belong to their own particular culture, discipline or cliques.

If that's a message of support then I hate to think what you'd say if you didn't approve of them.

pete

angryuser

Can we please stop all this arguing, counter argument, and useless posting and GET on with our objectives ?? How about some suggestions and useful ideas, to promote our cause and help us to succeed ?? My ideas, for what they are worth are here on this site: http://www.freeofcharge.net/index.htm
I posted them on this old site of mine, as it was too long in length to really fit into a posting here. Plus there are far too many very long posts on here, and posts should really be short, concise, and to the point ??

dahamsta

Can we please stop all this arguing, counter argument, and useless posting and GET on with our objectives ??

Uh, they had. three days ago?

Plus there are far too many very long posts on here, and posts should really be short, concise, and to the point ??

Depends on what it contains. If it's just empty ranting or not relevant to IO, it shouldn't be posted at all. If not, I don't see why there should be limits. Course, length often has a bearing on whether posts get read.

adam

murcielago

Angryuser

See Adam's list that anticipates your position. We do need the many (numbers) and not just the few. That has been my position ab initio.
Politicians have more cop on than the credit given to them by some on this forum. They don't want egg on their faces. They like DeVore want provable facts. The same applies to the media with which I have had a long and fruitful relationship.
I take your point about long contributions but pertinence and clarity can be more important than length. In any case good intentions don't always work out in practice. And we don't all have the ability to launch Websites

Keep up the good work

Murcielago

Bard

Originally posted by murcielago


And we don't all have the ability to launch Websites

Actually, we do... there's loads of free services around that allow people to put their sites on line. We all have the *ability*... we just don't all have the know-how to write a web site (or to write it well).

I reckon this topic has gone stale and as off topic as it can get. I'm not going to lock it though -; I'll just leave it to die of its own accord.

Boston

some of you must be pretty full of yourself if you think people that come here have the time to read 4 pages of this stuff. please god weres a sniper when you need one

murcielago

Bo$ton

Please edit so that we can understand what you wish to convey.

Brevity is the soul of wit but an intelligent audience is needed to capture the nuances. It is true we all do have ability and intellect but unfortunately some of us may have come from deprived backgrounds and so denied opportunities to develop our innate abilities. In my own case for example while having to humour, manage and coordinate various gurus both in-house and freelance - copywriters, graphic artists, photographers, Press officers, cartographers, software and hardware engineers - I have been deprived of opportunities to dabble on the job and learn by doing. You know the advice. Don't keep a dog and bark. It will not be tolerated by the unions in any case.

But sorry, I am indeed off topic.

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by murcielago

Brevity is the soul of wit but ......

But sorry, I am indeed off topic.

That quote came from Polonius in Hamlet :

Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief.

Polonius was noted for being long-winded wasn't he ? Interesting to use that phrase and following it with such a verbose observation on humanity.

murcielago

that 'tis true 'tis pity ...

o_donnel_abu

Originally posted by Bard


I reckon this topic has gone stale and as off topic as it can get. I'm not going to lock it though -; I'll just leave it to die of its own accord.

Looks like a Shakespearian death, Niall...long and drawn out


Martin

MarcusGarvey

The lady doth protest too much



This is going to turn into a Monty Python sketch next.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition