Opinion and suggestions...

dahamsta

Marcus, a WikiWikiWeb is a web-enabled "whiteboard" of sorts, where anyone and everyone can contribute. The IrelandOffline WikiWikiWeb was set up so ordinary members (no offense like) could help write the FAQ, and it was extremely successful until some kidiots decided it would be funny - it wasn't - to use the virtual duster and attempt to wipe out the hard work of others. Luckily, I was able to salvage the lot, but it had to be locked down after that. The job was done though, and the information now just needs to be collated and organised on the site proper. The original WikiWikiWeb is here if you want to read more.

Seamus, yes, a public meeting has been discussed, and I think we all want one as much as the membership, since the committee would like to have a full meeting on the same day. I can't give you a date, but I think January or February are quite likely.

Phactom XP, this has also been discussed, but as it happens our priority is to set up a virtual voting booth for the committee, as holding votes on our mailing list has been somewhat awkward. A voting booth for the membership was mentioned too, but it would only be used for vital matters. The first thing we need to do in this case is to reorganise the membership into a proper database, and this is in-hand - I'll be working on it myself next week.

Dustaz, I reckon I covered everything above, yeah?

adam

angryuser

Quote "Ok, I can't go into detail because we're still discussing it,
Ultimately though, for now, you're going to have to sit back and be patient with us a little more." unquote.

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Quote "Finally, and this is a heartfelt request - when people do post blatant and unhelpful criticism, could you all just ignore it please. Pretend the post isn't there, block the user, do what you want, but just ignore it. " unquote.

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Here we go again. Wait. !! Be patient. We will tell you. !! What is this kind of attitude ? Should we not be told, all the time, of things being planned, things being discussed, etc: Are we just a flock of sheep to be led along like idiots ? Why does a committee member, or members adopt such an attitude ? Why are ideas and plans and proposals not written up and published for ALL to read about as soon as they are 'thought up' or 'considered' ???
Why should they not be made open to all members to discuss ?
We dont belong to an Army, where we are only told about things when the 'officers' think fit !! We are a voluntary band of people dedicated to obtaining better internet access, is that not true ?
I see the above quoted remarks so often it makes my blood boil.
Secondly, why are some so afraid of criticism ? Will this post be considered criticism too ? It is an accepted thing in such an organisation, that if you set yourself up as a committee, and take up a lead position, then criticism goes with the job. !! If you cannot take criticism, or cannot accept variable views and comments, then you shouldnt be in the job !! Things are not set in stone, just because a committee members says something. That 'something' may not be agreeable to all members, and they therefore have a right to say so. The biggest mistake being made is in NOT keeping members 'informed' of 'everything' all the time, and on a regular basis. As soon as that is rectified, you will find relationships improve, and criticism diminish.

dahamsta

Should we not be told, all the time, of things being planned, things being discussed, etc

No. If we do that, we might as well roll up our sleeping bags now and go home, because we will never achieve anything. I mean that, I'm not exagerrating to inflate my own self-importance, I'm telling you like it is. If we release details of everything we do, IrelandOffline will be a group of 1300 people with no power, no say, no nothing. All we'll be is better informed, that's all we'll have, and that will be absolutely useless to us.

I'll give you an example: About a month and a half ago, I met a senior opposition politician to discuss the current situation. That person told me that they see it as a valid issue, but it has to be one that can be sold to the electorate, and that means it has to be sold to the party. I couldn't tell you about that - I still can't - because if it was made public, the risk of failure, of the person backing off, was too high. My conversation with that person has led to further developments, which again I can't reveal because the risks are too high. All I can reveal is that they are significant, and could very easily lead to the issues we discuss on a daily basis becoming election issues. That's not to be sneezed at, no matter how you look at it. In recent weeks, this has cooled off, but we'll ramp up again next week. Now, ask yourself, is it worth taking the risk and posting the details of this here? When nothing has actually happened yet? I'll answer for you: it's not. This is something you have to accept. I know you don't like it, and as a proponent of transparency I know how you feel, but that's how it is. I'm sorry.

Are we just a flock of sheep to be led along like idiots ?

Now, I told you the above in the hope of making you understand, because to be honest I'm utterly sick to death of these accusations. And that's what they are, accusations. Every month, every week, we have to put up with this kind of stuff. We tolerate it because we understand how you feel, but it doesn't make us any less angry at being treated in this way. So the above was the carrot, and here's the stick - don't you dare accuse us of treating you like sheep. You have no right to make that suggestion, and you offend me personally when you say it. I've never treated anyone on this board like sheep, and I never will.

Secondly, why are some so afraid of criticism ? Will this post be considered criticism too ? It is an accepted thing in such an organisation, that if you set yourself up as a committee, and take up a lead position, then criticism goes with the job. !!

First of all, I've made it abundantly clear here numerous times that criticism is welcome when it accompanyied by constructive commentary. If you, or anyone else, is not happy with what you're doing, you're free to voice that here, but if you don't offer alternatives, suggestions on how to improve, your post will be treated with the contempt it deserves. That's why the answer to your second question is 'yes', it is considered criticism, useless criticism. All you're doing is complaining. If you have a solution, post it, otherwise go and join Marcus in the Recycle Bin. I would prefer if you didn't to be honest, but that's how it is.

The answer to your third comment is more repetition - this isn't a job. A job suggests some kind of renumeration, and unless my wages are going into an account in Switzerland that I haven't been informed about yet, I remain voluntary. I do this because I hate the position we've all been put in, and because I think I can help correct it. But until such time as you pay me the ton an hour I would ordinarily be getting paid while I'm doing this, you have no right to criticise me. None.

You can take all that as you like, but I'm not looking for a flame war here, and I won't respond to more criticism unless there's valid commentary included. If it does turn into a flame war, I'll split it and dump it in the Recycle Bin, and we can continue it there.

adam

angryuser

Yes, this is one last attempt to get you to see the light. If it fails then so be it, the membership will have to decide over the coming weeks, months, years, who was right and who was wrong ?
All your words merely confirm what I have been saying all along, and the more you say the deeper you become embroiled in your own importance. For instance "YOU WILL ANSWER FOR ME" ? what arrogance is that ? Why shouldnt we be told and know about everything that is being done, said, and acted upon without having to DRAG it out of you like its some kind of state secret ?? Why the secrecy ? Your arguments as to the need for secrecy are totally invalid, and are your own arguments, not the arguments of the members !! We, the members decide, not you.
Who gave you authority to decide anything ? The RECYCLE BIN ? Your arrogance is only surpassed by your ignorance. !!
You go on about alternatives and constructive commentary like its compulsary. We are free, as members, to voice our unhappiness at anything we view as wrong. If you want constructive commentary, here it is. Change your ways, change your attitude, change the way you view your position, change the way you treat the members and the 'cause' as a whole. If you cant change, then get out, before you have us all going down YOUR road, and following YOUR ideas, which from what can be seen are the wrong ideas, and the wrong road. ??
In conclusion. If your SECRET activities turn out to be unsuccessful then that means we NEVER get to know about them at all ? So that could, and does lead to everybody thinking that NOTHING is being done. !! ?? Is that what you want ?? Isnt that self defeating ? I had no complaints, in fact was fully behind the original committee in its efforts until you came along. Now your arrogance and self importance is ruining everything, and the forum, and the 'objective' seems to have become something far less worthy of support now than it was before your arrival. ?
Finally, such talk of "Switzerland" is childish, and your statement that we have no right to criticise because your unpaid is totally muddled thinking. That kind of statement makes you ABOVE criticism. !! Are you some kind of Saint that you cannot be criticised ? Come down to earth Adam, and join the members !!

MarcusGarvey

If this was a completely transparent organisation then Eircom and everyone else would see whats going on with future plans and might try and put a stop to it.

An example of this would be political lobbying. Say for example that IrelandOffline were in talks with a junior minister about the telecommunications bill, then if this ws made public you can bet Eircom will also try and lobby the TD and interfere. A large organisation like Eircom are way more experienced with spin and lobbying tactics. Secrecy in this case is an advantage for the IrelandOffline group.

Or look at it in another hpothetical way, say IrelandOffline was in talks with another Telco who found some loophole to get cheap bandwidth to the masses. If IrelandOffline ley everyone know about this you can be sure that the other dominant telco are going to preserve their advantage by closing the loop hole.

While I dislike the "we're doing something but we can't tell you " statements there is merit in sometimes keeping things quiet.

pete

OK then Mr "angryuser" - can you give us a list of all YOUR wonderful efforts to effect change?

hmm?

What about all the politicians you've met with?
(Yes, I know you got a letter from your TD. Contacting your own local representatives is the least anyone who calls themselves a "member" of Ireland Offline should do - I'm talking actual meetings with actual ministers who have an actual say in what happens.)

OK then show us all the newspaper interviews you've done, raising public awareness?

hmm?

Right. Thought as much.

Ireland Offline isn't a members only club, or a political party, or a representative organisation - it's a lobby group. None of us paid to join, and none of us has any god given right to know what's going on. You are not "free as a member" to do anything except put up or shut up. If you don't like how they carry out their work then either come up with some viable alternatives or stop supporting their work. (Note for the hard-of-thinking: Telling the world and his mother what you plan to do is not a viable operational plan for a political lobby group. Also, please note that saying "Change what you're doing" does not qualify as constructive if an alternative is not specified).

The most that 90% of us "ordinary members" have ever done is express our support for the goals of the committee. That support buys us the right to precisely no say in how they operate - and this is how it should be. The difference between the committee and "members" like you is they are actually doing something about the situation, unlike people like you who bitch and moan from the sidelines with absolutely no concept of how a lobby group needs to operate.

Grow up for christs sake. Oh, and welcome to the real world.

murcielago

It would help me greatly in my evaluation of the arguments offered by the two sides if I did have some knowledge of the backgrounds - qualifications, experience in other areas, experience within IOFFL, and membership status in IOFFL, that is, founder member, recent member, sleeping or active committee member, etc. - of the protagonists.

Negotiating, lobbying, PR, organising etc. tend to be based on subjective judgements. A particular proposal cannot be sent to a lab or workshop for testing. Instead they remain to be tested in real life situations and this is a risky and expensive business. This highlights the need for proven knowledge and expertise on the part of those who want the authority to make important decisions.

Expertise can be acquired from a person's own relevant experience. It can also be provided by learning from the experience of others. Books and professional studies aim to give the newbie a start by providing him/her with the distilled knowledge borne of the experience of others and so on.

The time has come to set out our stall as a semi-professional organisation. By that I mean unpaid people leading the action in as professional a manner as they have learned to do in the course of their own professional and voluntary etc. activities. Enthusiastic others can join in and learn from their betters while at the same time contributing drive and energy and getting ready to take over the show in due course. Asking questions is an important role for newbies and oldies alike. Indeed knowing the question to ask can be much more important than having answers to irrelevant ones. Accordingly, I do not agree at all with the daft notion that one cannot criticise or question without offering a solution. When Eircom supplies me with a lousy telephone connection I know it and am entitled to demand rectification without having to take the engineer by the hand and show her/him how to do it.

Murcielago

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
Accordingly, I do not agree at all with the daft notion that one cannot criticise or question without offering a solution. When Eircom supplies me with a lousy telephone connection I know it and am entitled to demand rectification without having to take the engineer by the hand and show her/him how to do it.

Murcielago

There's an ever-so-slight difference between your relationship with Ireland Offline and your relationship with Eircom: You're paying Eircom to provide a service.

angryuser

Suggestion
Limit the Forum to three threads. Yes, only three. (1) Suggestions, Ideas (2) Commiitte Reports.
(3) General discussions amongst members.
No.1. should only contain ideas and suggestions. No arguments, counter proposals.Purely constructive ideas
for discussion by the committee. Anything that is not a pure suggestion or new idea should be deleted.
No.2 should be limited to access by the committte, (except for viewing of course) and should contain 'regular' updates of happenings and activities by the committe. Not only successful accomplishments, but 'everything' that they are doing and engaged upon. This thread could also contain responses, by the committee, to the suggestions and ideas of members in thread No.1.
No.3. should be a general discussion thread, where all topics of discussion "relating" to the IOFFL objectives can be aired and discussed.
The three threads should be adequately HEADED with the exact Title of that thread. This will enable members to read about new ideas, and read about committee activities, without having to troll through countless other subjects and threads which might be of no interest to them at all.
These three Threads should be allowed to continue until manageable posting proportions have been reached, and then the oldest batch of postings should be transferred to another site called perhaps "Old Suggestions" and
"Old Committe Reports" ??
At present the Forum is just a hotchpotch of writings and suggestions and arguments and links and ideas going on and on forever. The new forum would, as suggested contain just three threads only, and be easily navigated and selectable. Anyone wanting to read the "old" sections can be redirected to them with a link.
This would have the added advantage of giving potential viewers from Goverment, Eircom, Business, and so on a picture of a properly organised and adequately functional Forum and give a much better impression of IOFFL than they are likely to gain at present ? Also the committee members need only view No.3. out of interest, and can then concentrate on No.1. and No.2.
In addition the previous idea of "don't let the opposition know what were doing" is counter productive. Let them see what we are doing. Let them see that we mean business. Let them see we are lobbying parties, government, businesses, and so on. This is more likely to give an impression that "IOFFL is to be taken seriously" than the current "veil of secrecy" will engender ??
In conclusion it is to be hoped that this topic does not generate too many posts of agreement/disagreement, the important thing is for the committe to vote on its feasability/usefullness. We do not want this topic immersed in another batch of hundreds of postings, and in the process loose its objective altogether, which is exactly what happens in most other cases.

seamus

I think all the trolls, bitching and moaning blah blah blah stems from some belief that they are entitled to something. Becoming a member of IOFFL is simply registering your support. Nothing else. In fact it costs more for IOFFL to have you as member then for you to stay as one. If anything, you owe them something. You might say you have sent letters to TD's, etc, but at the end of the day, you're doing it for yourself, not for IOFFL, just like most of the rest of us. Without the organisation, there would just be 1,300 people sending letters randomly, and some with about as much intelligence, foresight and anger control as a rabid dog, as we have seen on these boards, thus would prevent us from being taken seriously. Companies, Governments etc, are far more afraid of people when we are organised, obviously, and the committee members give their time and energy to keep us organised, and what do they get? An earful of bitching about how they aren't doing enough. I'm surprised they're still as enthusiastic about the whole thing

I've said it before:- Boards.ie and IOFFL are free. Get it into your head - you are entitled to nothing here. Your freedom of speech, right to reply and right to criticise are null and void. And if you don't like it, fück off. Period. :mad:

pete

Originally posted by angryuser
In addition the previous idea of "don't let the opposition know what were doing" is counter productive. Let them see what we are doing. Let them see that we mean business. Let them see we are lobbying parties, government, businesses, and so on. This is more likely to give an impression that "IOFFL is to be taken seriously" than the current "veil of secrecy" will engender ??

I hope this isn't misinterpreted as a flame, because I'm genuinely curious to know....Do you actually read other peoples posts?

I'm just dumbfounded at the thought that someone could so completely and utterly fail to see why there must be secrecy around these activities.

pete

dahamsta

Angryuser, first of all, I'm not going to argue with you any more on the matter of full disclosure, because it's obvious we're at an impasse, and neither of us are going to change the others mind.

I personally don't believe it is in the best interest of the organisation to dislose everything we do to the membership, for the reasons stated above, and others. As a vocal proponent of transparency, that's a difficult position for me to take, but I believe that this situation, this organisation, is very different to the organisations I normally scream "the word" at (hello IEDR fans).

Unfortunately, there is very little either of us can do to resolve our differences, because when all is said and done, the committee agrees with me, and so do most of the members who have responded on this issue in the past. The best we can do is to try and be /more/ forthright with you, and we are addressing that. The suggestions for more regular updates have been discussed, both here and on the committee mailing list, and it's something we want to deal with. We will, I promise you.

In the coming weeks, the membership details will be moved to a dedicated database, and an automated request will be sent out for members to validate their membership and to provide further details for our records (which will of course be protected rigorously). Part of that will be opt-in scheduled mailings, at the users discretion - they will be able to choose weekly[1], fortnightly, monthly, "as it happens" or of course no updates. Even if there is nothing to report, we will send these mailings out.

Crucially though, our position on full disclosure will remain unchanged. We will disclose all we can to the membership, however anything we think may be damaging to our efforts will remain unsaid. We may hint at interesting items of news to keep your spirits up, but that's the best we can do. I'm sorry we can't do better, but again, that's just the way it is.

Murcielago, when we're updating the website in the coming weeks, I'll put your suggestion about membership profiles to the commitee. Although I'm not sure anyone will be particularly impressed with it, personally I have no objection to having my profile available on the website, as long as my personal contact details remain private. I've already received threatening and offensive email from some of our members, and it's not something I particularly enjoy.

Angryuser, in reference to your last post, it's quite likely that we'll go that way anyway (we've discussed it already, and Tom (DeVore) has kindly offered to set up more boards for us) but since there is also the Working Groups to consider (they will most likely require private forums too) I would personally prefer to see how that goes. A lot of this is reliant on how we migrate and redevelop the website in the coming weeks, as we will have to come to a decision on how to deal with the ever-expanding IrelandOffline.

Finally, angryuser, do you have any objection to me deleting the thread where you posted the above message? There's no point in discussing it in two places, yes? [EDIT: Never mind, threads merged, duplicates deleted.]

adam

[1] Weekly may not be a valid option, we'll see how we go.

SkepticOne

By threads do you mean the equivalent of 'topics' within a forum or do you mean that the existing IOFFL forum be sub-divided up into three sections?

I.e. would people still be able to create topics?

dahamsta

By threads do you mean the equivalent of 'topics' within a forum or do you mean that the existing IOFFL forum be sub-divided up into three sections? I.e. would people still be able to create topics?

The first would be unworkable anyway. I would guess angryuser meant separate forums, as we dicussed last week (except of course it was two then).

As I said in the thread posted by Dave, we'll probably need to set up separate forums or mailing lists for the working groups anyway, although how we'll go about that is arguable. Perhaps we could leave membership of the WG's open or summat?

I guess this should really be moved back to a separate thread now. Boy is my face red.

adam

murcielago

Pete

Payment in money is not the only reward people get out of doing things including participation in committees and providing services as officers. Otherwise we would have no voluntary organisations at all.

Officers/committees do need to get satisfaction and recognition from their efforts. Intangible benefits include the experience and knowledge gained from chairing of meetings, providing the services of secretay, treasurer, PRO etc. The next time you apply for a job you may be asked about your voluntary, professional body or community etc. activities. And it may be a bonus to be able to say you have been chairman of several voluntary groups. In most jobs there is indeed a lot of committee or task force work. But very little is taught in formal courses to help the newbie to perform successfully in this area and so on. If anybody wishes it I can return to a more considered post on this whole area of voluntary service.

Murcielago

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
Pete

Payment in money is not the only reward people get out of doing things including participation in committees and providing services as officers. Otherwise we would have no voluntary organisations at all.

And the relevance of this is what, exactly? Since you conveniently left out the point I was actually making, allow me to remind you. You said:

Accordingly, I do not agree at all with the daft notion that one cannot criticise or question without offering a solution. When Eircom supplies me with a lousy telephone connection I know it and am entitled to demand rectification without having to take the engineer by the hand and show her/him how to do it.

and i said:

There's an ever-so-slight difference between your relationship with Ireland Offline and your relationship with Eircom: You're paying Eircom to provide a service.

I was merely pointing out that your analogy was flawed. You are attempting to compare the service levels you expect from a commercial body - one which you pay to provide clearly defined services - and a voluntary lobby group which receives nothing from you. What gives you the right to "demand rectification" from Ireland Offline?

Are you suggesting that the couple of lines that Ireland Offline committee members could add to their CV's makes all the bull they have to put up with here in return for their efforts on our behalf worth it in some way?

I sincerely doubt it is.

I have no idea how the committee puts up with this sort of thing. I know I wouldn't have the patience.

murcielago

Pete

I regret I seem not to have made myself very clear at all.

The easiest point to clarify is that my absence of knowledge of the backgrounds of those people who have made dogmatic statements refers mainly to non committee members. I have gleaned background knowledge on a number of the committee such as Martin Harran, Elana Keogh, Adamasta, Bard and perhaps one or two others. Further, both Martin and Elana related their backgrounds to the work they do for Ireland Offline. Elana for example had PR/media/negotiating/voluntary affairs, competence prior to her arrival on IOFFl and it shows. Others do make claims about the right way to apply pressure and negotiate etc. I would just like to know from all such claimants the basis on which they make dogmatic statements. There are as you may have heard more ways to kill a cat than by choking him with butter. I simply don't trust dogmatics to have the mental training and flexibility to represent me on any important matter. Negotiators will often have to think on their feet and should be able to respond appropriately to anything put to them by the other side. A small point would be for committee members to identify themselves as such when giving a committee point of or support view. I know I do have them somewhere, but like many others am in a rush when browsing here.


My second point is a little more sophisticated and is clearly beyond your present state of intellectual development. I notice you did not take up my offer to submit a considered post on why some people do take on often thankless work while others will disappear at the first hint of a contrary viewpoint.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Murcielago

dahamsta

My second point is a little more sophisticated and is clearly beyond your present state of intellectual development.

Pete has been argumentative but not offensive murcielago. I would appreciate it if you acted in the same way.

adam

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
Pete

I regret I seem not to have made myself very clear at all.

The easiest point to clarify is that my absence of knowledge of the backgrounds of those people who have made dogmatic statements refers mainly to non committee members. I have gleaned background knowledge on a number of the committee such as Martin Harran, Elana Keogh, Adamasta, Bard and perhaps one or two others. Further, both Martin and Elana related their backgrounds to the work they do for Ireland Offline. Elana for example had PR/media/negotiating/voluntary affairs, competence prior to her arrival on IOFFl and it shows. Others do make claims about the right way to apply pressure and negotiate etc. I would just like to know from all such claimants the basis on which they make dogmatic statements. There are as you may have heard more ways to kill a cat than by choking him with butter. I simply don't trust dogmatics to have the mental training and flexibility to represent me on any important matter. Negotiators will often have to think on their feet and should be able to respond appropriately to anything put to them by the other side. A small point would be for committee members to identify themselves as such when giving a committee point of or support view. I know I do have them somewhere, but like many others am in a rush when browsing here.

Yes. Very good.

Now when you get down off your high horse I'd like you to go back to my earlier posts and show me where the hell I ever disagreed or contradicted with any of this????

I really thought I made myself clear earlier. Obviously I was wrong, but I don't think it necessary to restate it for someone of such obviously high intellectual capacity. Just go back and read what I said, and if it's not too much trouble maybe you could try to answer the question. The one that was asked, not the one you choose to answer, that is.

My second point is a little more sophisticated and is clearly beyond your present state of intellectual development.

Yes that's very mature. Tell you what - why don't we sack the committee right now, and then you can take over. Oh please won't you represent us? You're just what IOFFL needs right now - someone who can talk at politicians, someone capable of having a completely one sided conversation with them, someone who is at ease totally ignoring what they have to say, and hey! When that doesn't work, sure you can always call them stupid! That's sure to impress them.

No, really.

I notice you did not take up my offer to submit a considered post on why some people do take on often thankless work while others will disappear at the first hint of a contrary viewpoint.

If it was in any way relevant, I might have.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Murcielago

Don't mention it.

pete

NeilF

Originally posted by dahamsta
we'll probably need to set up separate forums or mailing lists for the working groups anyway, although how we'll go about that is arguable.

I'd say go for mailing lists because at least they can be read off-line, archived and searched locally. We are, after all, acutely aware of the cost of being on-line.

This should probably be in another thread also so if you move yours you can move mine too

murcielago

Since you conveniently left out ..
What gives you the right ...?
pointing out that your analogy was flawed ..
Are you suggesting ...?
I hve no idea how the committee puts up with this sort of thing

Dahamsta

I consider all the above part sentences and part questions to be highly insnsitive and therefore offensive in polite dialogue. Each one contains the word you or your. Pointing out conjures up the pointing of a finger at me. I am accused of unethical behaviour. I have conveniently left out .. and so on.
The most offensive of all is an implied reprimand in 'I have no idea ..' and an implication that I have been an unhelpful, troublesome and unconstructive contributor.

People who have behaved in this way in the past have been tolerated for too long. I had thought that a change was in the air.

BTW dahamsta how many previous posters have you rebuked other than those who used obscene language or advocated illegal activity? There are different ways for dealing with ignorant people. I choose mine.

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
I consider all the above part sentences and part questions to be highly insnsitive and therefore offensive in polite dialogue. Each one contains the word you or your. Pointing out conjures up the pointing of a finger at me.

I'm sorry. Any hope of further intelligent discourse just went out the window.

Comedy Gold.

murcielago

Dahamsta,

Please check your PM box

NeilF

Originally posted by murcielago
polite dialogue

:eek:

murcielago

quote from Pete.

Several posts over time have asked the perfectly reasonable question as to why anyone should want to be an officer or committee member of IOFFL.

A similar question is put day-in-day out in relation to practically every voluntary group in this country and abroad.

It is an entirely proper question to make. It is also proper and relevant to try to find a general proposition to try to explain the phenomenon. There is a body of research into the topic.

Murcielago

pete

Muriel,

About 3 posts back you made it abundantly clear that you are a complete and utter *bleep*. Nothing you are saying has any relevance to the *bleep* I called you on.

Nothing.

I pointed out a flaw in your argument. I asked you some simple questions. You chose to move the goalposts.

End of discussion.

Nobody cares.

Go to bed.

Goodnight,
pete

ps you were possibly right about the finger bit - except it's not quite pointing at you....

(edited for a bit of self-censorship)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by murcielago
Several posts over time have asked the perfectly reasonable question as to why anyone should want to be an officer or committee member of IOFFL.

For me it is mainly because I support the goals of IOFFL and I think I can contribute contribute towards these goals.

dahamsta

Pete, murcielago,

Do me a favour and either stop arguing or take it elsewhere, please. Private Messaging, Recycle Bin, wherever, I don't care, just somewhere else.

Thanks,
adam

pete

Originally posted by dahamsta
Pete, murcielago,

Do me a favour and either stop arguing or take it elsewhere, please. Private Messaging, Recycle Bin, wherever, I don't care, just somewhere else.

Thanks,
adam

edit: actually scratch that last comment. I took it too far, and i apologise. I guess i don't take too well to being insulted.

murcielago

I thought I had sent this post earlier but it doesn't appear to show. My PC seems to have new yearitis

1. You are paying Eircom to provide a service
2. Commercial v. Voluntary
3. Move the goalposts

1. True. A more general concept is that I want and am getting a benefit from Eircom (in exchange for cash - the benefit Eircom gets from me). I want also a benefit from being here on IOFFL; otherwise I would not waste time, effort and expense. The same concept of having a need to satisfy and having it satisfied (by another) in exchange for something that I give is known as an exchange of benefits. This is the kernal of what marketing (which includes negotiation) is all about.

Does IOFFL want my support and that of all its members? And does IOFFL want to increase the overall membership? I would hope the answer is yes to both questions. This is an example of marketing in practice. And all the tools of marketing should be considerd for use as appropriate. I do not wish to give an opportunity for another negative comment. But I must confirm that I like many others have made contributions that do not appear here. Even the few planned puny posts I did make here did involve some reflection and effort. Obviously, you are not in sympathy with anything I have posted, but hopefully somebody did benefit. I do not go along with the concept that in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed person is not alone king but doesn't want or need input from anybody else.

2. Commercial v. Voluntary
Has anybody bothered to study the structure of the Irish economy? How much of our GDP is accounted for by the services delivered by voluntary undertakings. Such research has been done elsewhere. Neither economists (other than partial economists) or marketing professionals make any artificial distinction beween services and goods provided by commercial as distinct from Voluntary organisations. For many years some economists (and the revenue commissioners) did tend to ignore benefits in kind.

3. Move the goalposts
As 1 & 2 should show I have not moved the goalposts perceived by me when I came into this field. When others do not see the entire field, that is not a problem of my making but nevertheless it does concern me when their myopia causes them to impact negatively on what I am trying to achieve for IOFFL. I do take seriously my obligation to reciprocate benefit to all who may visit here and also the thousands who may never hear of IOFFL.

Finally excuse any errors of spelling or syntax. It is late and I am properly advised to go to bed.

Thanks to anybody who has attended to this post. And BTW this is not a considered post on voluntary organisations

Prosperous and peaceful New Year to all

Murcielago


Dahamsta; this post has been in preparation for some time and in-between interruptions. It is intended to be informative and explanatory as requested by Pete. The content is important in its own right