General Election and 'vote management'

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
Victor youre assuming FF would win the majority.

Fair point, but I don't think I'm being unrealistic.

Originally posted by Sand
A voting system shouldnt be judged on whether or not your favourite party wins or not.

I actually don't mind FF being in poweer, I dislike them (or anyone else - /me is looking at independants) excessively exploiting (can I say corrupting) that power.

Originally posted by Sand

Sure there is, Socialists dont actually have an economic policy beyond raising taxes on the productive sectors of the econokmy and giving it to the unproductive sectors of the economy.

Eh, aren't you a student ...

Sand

Which has prepared my answer- Positive externalities from education . Well assuming its not an arts degree- thats just a waste of everyones time and money.:D

shotamoose

quote:

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It should be obvious that a free market, to labour the point, means the freedom of the strong to exploit the rich

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Typo perhaps? Seems to me to be an apt description of a Socialist government.

Well perhaps you (a) haven't thought out the ramifications of what people really mean by the term 'free market', and (b) have your own fairly narrow ideas about socialism, which might bear some rethinking.

Basis of economics 101 - Nobody, but nobody ever ever ever goes out to create wealth for the benefit of society. They create it for their own benefit. Until the left create an economic model that accepts this their economic policies will always be a failure.

Oh. this must be another one of these universal 'laws' of economics we keep getting told about. Which neatly enshrines careless individualism as some sort of immutable fact of life. Why should we be surprised when people are selfish and harmful to others, after all its a law of economics. Bullplop. The sooner people start questioning the flawed reasoning behind the basic assumptions of mainstream economics the sooner we can develop decent solutions to the very complex and very deeply ingrained problems we face. I'm certainly not blaming capitalism for all the problems in the world, I'm just saying that a blinkered repetition of the tired old mantras of free trade making everything okay is not good enough anymore.

As for going off topic, yeah we have been alright haven't we? Although I think the discussion so far has been a pretty natural consequence of the original post, I'd like to try returning to it again and just ask if anyone sees any merit in the idea? Some people I've spoken to about it are very enthusiastic, some just poo-poohed it immediately as unworkable and ethically dodgy. I think the first criticism is most valid: it would be hard work to get it up and running, but at least it'd be an interesting exercise. And if I was going to give it a try I'd probably need lots of help. So if anyone's got the next five months free let me know.

Sand

Why should we be surprised when people are selfish and harmful to others, after all its a law of economics.

No its the other way around. Its because people are selfish that its the underlying concept. If people arent selfish why do they save money? what they dont need they should give to those who are poorer yeah? Why is it when they invest money the two things they look at are return and risk to to them-not which investment benefits society most? You mightnt like to think people are selfish but saying bullplop wont make it any less true.

Well theyre right to say its unworkable and ethically dodgy. Unworkable because selfishness (see above) will mean politicians wont sacrifice their "exsposure"- they mighnt win this time but if they grab a significiant vote they might do better next election- Look at Nader and Gore in the US. Same reasoning, Anyone who voted Nader probably wishes they voted Gore- But Nader wouldnt cut a deal because he was aiming for that magic 5%.

Ethically dodgy because it isnt representitive of peoples views anymore - If they wanted candidate X in why didnt they vote for him in the first place- and if his manifesto is so acceptable why are there other left candidates when they apparently split the left vote? - instead it becomes about stopping candidate Y from winning - not exactly positive politics.

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
Which has prepared my answer- Positive externalities from education . Well assuming its not an arts degree- thats just a waste of everyones time and money.:D

Maybe I'm wasted, but explain this to me.

Sand

K lets see if I can explain this without the aid of a graph:)

There is a certain demand for education, based on its private benefit to the individual ( You get a better education you can get a better job, better wages- hence demand for better education for an individual). However an educated workforce brings its own additional social benefits, or positive externalities

-Better education leads to people capable of generating better ways of producing goods and services, which then pass onto the general population through knowledge and technology spillover.

-A better educated workforce attracts foreign hi tech investment (again leading to technology spill over and infrastructural investment), and the wages that these firms offer (often in excess of domestic firms) enter the domestic economy.

Because of these positive externalities its beneficial to society to encourage education. An example of a negative externality would be pollution, which it is beneficial to discourage.

Human Capital (Education and training and so on, a measurement of the "quality" of the work force is an important component of the production function which helps determine prosperity and economic growth.

DadaKopf

Get back on topic, grease balls.

Aspro

Originally posted by Sand
Agreed. Move to Cuba. Why would anyone want the left elected in the first place? Theyre idiots.

I think the population of Dublin West would have to disagree with you.

Why elect the left? Because FF, FG, Labour, PDs are all right wing and represent the rich and powerful. So who represents us?

DadaKopf

Michael Noonan's announcement, saying that he wishes to form a coalition with the Labour party, sparked a very interesting debate, which is particularly relevant to the original subject of the thread (but not so much where it's gone since).

Essentially, a panelist, justifiably said that the Irish party system is crap. There’s a huge swathe of people without good representation and that the nature of party politics in Ireland is radically changing as a direct result of advances in The North.

Strangely enough, the Labour representative agreed and proceeded to accuse Fianna Fáil of only acting on things when it reached the mainstream. This was further reinforced by Bowman. Fianna Fáil was, naturally, the party to most refute these comments, whether they were against FF or anyone else, and ended up looking bad, arrogant and chronically out of touch. Fianna Fáil was told point blank that they wait for something to reach the mainstream and then they act on it or jump on the bandwagon (reference in point was their historical approach to Northern Ireland). Why? No balls and vote maximisation (which looks like it's not working anymore - I mean, FF is going to lose Leitrim).

Why does the country continue to vote for them? Parochialism and a stagnant party-system with so little real choice that people vote for their least worst candidate, not the one most able for the job or with positive ideas. If we know we vote for the least worst candidate, why don't we change that? I can only guess that it's some particularly Irish type of conservatism.

Any way I can contribute to helping people relise this and realise that that can actually change, I'll get involved. Fritter-it is one of the simplest ideas I've seen - at least it's something other than complaining and doing nothing. Clearly shotamoose is a visionary! Ah no, it's at least comforting to see how the 'learned' of Irish politics have realised the same thing - shotamoose's idea looks like it's a start.

Sand

Why vote for FF? Their finance minister seems to know how to run a successful economy.

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
Why vote for FF? Their finance minister seems to know how to run a successful economy.

And engage in creative accounting.

And fiddle with the tax system over several years instead of implementing rapid reform - it's a great way of keeping accountants busy. Yes, lets put the countries great business minds to use at trying to work out this year's tax credits, instead of using them for innovative business ideas. :mad: