Hypocrisy of this Government reaches a new high

bonkey

Originally posted by swiss
To bring in the attorney general, to me, seems somewhat like overkill. I find it difficult to believe that this case is without precedent, and presents the government as having a hardline attitude towards refugees who wish to stay here.

I was of the impression that the AG usually represented the government when constitutional issues were at stake.

I'm interested to see the second article - that the government "backs down". Was there any backing down at all here? As I pointed out before, the government cannot decide issues where the constitution is called into question, and must defer to a court ruling. Given that this woman
a) Is not an Irish citizen, and
b) initiated the court case challenging the constitution

then I would imagine that the government had no choice but to take her to court, regardless of their opinions on the issue. Their stance once in court is what tells.

A couple of things have spring to mind about this case which makes it even more interesting...

1) Where/how did an asylum seeker learn so much about Irish constitutional law to be able to find and challenge this potential loophole?

2) The state seems to be accepting some of the claims of the mother-to-be, but essentially saying that at most it would require a seperate deportation for the unnamed child. I'm not even sure teh judge will swallow this one, because you cannot name an unborn child on a deportation order, as the child has no legal name.

3) I notice that the woman's defense is also arguing that the Minister for Justice had not stated the reasons for deportation, which he is obliged to do.

Item 3 on this is the kicker. Despite all the various cries about racism in the press, here, and no doubt elsewhere, the fact remains that the woman herself does not allegedly know the reasons for her deportation, other than that she was refused refugee status. Given this lack of knowledge, is it not a bit precipitous to be laying claims of racism?

Whether or not the figures Sand posted are accurate, there has been a massive influx of asylum seekers over recent years. For this reason alone the process has become more "red-taped" - we must have some control over the flood. While I do not agree with some of the conditions which are imposed on asylum seekers, I agree with the government 100% that control is needed. Its not racism, its pragmatism. It would be racism if we refused many genuine asylum seekers on "engineered" grounds, granted certain ethnicities exemption (official or under the table) from this process, or if we refused specific ethnicities. Putting controls in place is not racist. I have yet to see an explanation of why our immigration/asylum laws are racist. I accept that many Irish people are quite racist, and particularly unwelcoming of refugees. I accept that the structures the government put in place have been somewhat tempered by this public reaction (the government obviously trying to keep the people happy and still do some of the right thing). I do not accept, however, that the granting of asylum is racially biased as seems to be argued by several people here.

In this case, control was applied, and the request for asylum denied. Anyone claiming to know more, or saying "this would never happen to a white woman" is basically expressing an unfounded opinion and no more. Show me the white women who avoided the red tape since the process was toughened in the past 5 years. Show me the reasons why this specific refusal is unfair. Then you have grounds for racist claims.

In the meantime, however, this remains nothing but opportunistic journalism - sensationalising a case far beyond its merits.

jc

The Gopher

Originally posted by Victor


Not wishing to fall into a trap but aren't Vietnamese people typically of Asian descent? And wasn't that about 20-25 years ago? And weren't they also treated badly?

Note the words "black ppl and so on"i.e other darker skinned ppls.

tools

[Racist claptrap snipped - Tools post something like this again and I will make your life a misery on these boards - Gandalf]

As Brian Lenihan said when asked about Ireland's atrocious emigration levels (30,000 a year at the peak), "We can't all live on a small island".



Look at the pathetic scroungers off to be useless in Americay. Gah.

Victor

Originally posted by tools
[tools racist crap removed]

Yeah, there is enough Irish people to do that .....

The Gopher

Originally posted by tools
[tools racist crap removed]

Im not sure if this is meant to be sarcastic but if it isnt it shows the typical attitude of an Irish waster.I really have to laugh when I hear my mother complaining that the gov has put Romanians in expensive houses near us.She dosent realise that they would just as easily put Irishppl there too.These ppl are likely there until they get corpo housing-I really doubt the gov would buy any1 a 250K house.There are probably hundreds of poor Irish round the island living for a few weeks in the likes of Castleknock before being moved on to the likes of Finglas.Ppl who complain the most recieve the most-for christs sake my mother hadnt a proper job in 16 years until recently out of sheer laziness.She had crap cleaning a job or 2,but only to claim dole after 6 months.And these are the ppl she would complain about.Sure there are crooked foreigners,but think of how many crooked natives you also know.If you got 12 Nigerians in a room chances are 3 may be dodgy.Then again so are probably 3 outta 12 Irish.Every race has crooks in equal measure.

Sand

And because we have some crooks its okay for more crooks to come? That appears to be your reasoning there.

I see were back to the racism again. Good to see there can be an immigration debate with it involved. I do get tired of all those reasonable ones where the arguments stress the economic pros and cons of immigration, the illegal nature of entry used by many migrants, and what migration achieves in the long term.

Has anyone considered that perhaps instead of simply absorpbing the flow of migration we should instead attempt to encourage them to solve the problems in their own countries- that this would help a lot more people than asylum currently does? Given the standard doctrine of a refugee fleeing a dictatorship is it wise to encourage the opposition forces, that would in time reform their country with aid, to instead flee and leave the dictatorship in power? Which does the most good in the long run?

Typedef

yawn...

And because we have some crooks its okay for more crooks to come? That appears to be your reasoning there.

Yeah right Sand, maybe the Republic should screen for the "crook gene" before admitting anyone into the country, that and the "Islamic terrorist gene". Or just simply bar anyone from coming to Ireland who is 1. Black 2.Romanian or 3.Muslim.

I see were back to the racism again. Good to see there can be an immigration debate with it involved. I do get tired of all those reasonable ones where the arguments stress the economic pros and cons of immigration, the illegal nature of entry used by many migrants, and what migration achieves in the long term.

Namely a multiculutral, and (striving for) pluralist society, not a one party right wing, totalitarian, big brother, repressive, xenophobic and self obsessed society, that perpetually elects the same tired and corrupt self-interested politicians, who do nothing but waste state resources and get themselves re-elected. Sure Ireland can have a platform of xenophobia and intraspective immigration laws that cater to the lowest common denominator of racist tendancies, and have the statuatory getting tough on immigration story every few weeks to make the "public" feel good about being the "second whitest country in the world", but I think that is extremely unhealthy. Do you people know that Ireland is the second whitest country in the world, sad fact.

Has anyone considered that perhaps instead of simply absorpbing the flow of migration we should instead attempt to encourage them to solve the problems in their own countries

Like how "we" helped the Afghani people solve their problems? By dropping bombs on them? Interferring in other countries internal affairs is wht the US has been doing for 75 years now give or take, though their proxies the CIA, or by simply going to war and all it gets the US, is enemies and all it brings to the world is human proxy genocide based on "American interests" like in Iraq. Hey Sand have you ever heard of the Common Agricultural Policy? Well in Europe it servs function X and function Y right, but when so-called "third world countries" (who are "coincidentially" former colonies of some of our "european partners") want to import produce into the EU, the Common Agricultrual Policy is used to prevent those contries from processing their raw materials. The CAP countries will not import the raw materials in a processed form, instead the CAP countries seek to provide those processing jobs within the CAP and thus maintain CAP interests, effectively preventing the move from a primary or agriarian economy to one of secondary or tertiary basis for the raw materials provider. So how about "we" dismantle the CAP, or simply give away the massive mountains, nay the glutenous mountains of excess food that sit in warehouses throughout the EU due to overproduction caused by the CAP? Hmm no, that hits a little too close to home doesn't it, I mean that actually might affect Ireland and our own comfortable little lives wouldn't it, to much like putting our money where our mouths, or rather "their" mouths are huh?
I mean who cares if the CAP exploits former colonies in a neo-imperialist economic rule, who cares if the money the former-colonies get from sale of their raw produce does not go to education and health care, but goes to paying off the massive interest repayments on debts that those same former colonies have amassed? So long as the CAP countries 1. Sell weapons to each side in African wars(wars fought because of boundaries the Powers of the day, now EU/CAP countries drew) 2. Keep the former-colonies in a new-imperialist economic doldrum 3. Maintain their own jobs and access to raw materials/ their interests?

Given the standard doctrine of a refugee fleeing a dictatorship is it wise to encourage the opposition forces, that would in time reform their country with aid, to instead flee and leave the dictatorship in power? Which does the most good in the long run?

Sand, God did not come down from heaven and give the west the sceptre of illucidation with which to decide which countries the "west" may and may not arbitrarily, according to the fashion of economic-political thought, install and toppel governments around the world. It is politics like that, that have brought about the massive deaths in Iraq due to the US playing god in that region (as "we" all well know), it is policies like that, that have the Mexican government spurred by "globalisation" to begin "displacing" native peoples in the South of Mexico, quite similar to how the Australian government "displaced" aborigines and then let off a whole load of nuclear weapons on the same ostensibly pristine aborigine land.

In the long run, countries like Ireland who are amongst the richest in the world could reap massive benefits from allowing high levels of immigration, just look at the United States, over 95% of it's citizens are colonists or are living on land that former colonists stole from the native Indians, so in a wider sense, allowing people who are self-starters, motivated and have the desire to leave their own country to make a better life somewhere else means that the recipeint country in this case, literally imports enthusiastic and motivated people.

Take the Irish that immagrated to the USA during and immediately after the famine in the 1840's, those people were refugees, now I know that lots of the anti-immigration/refugee people in Ireland seem to be quite pro-Us so take example from the USA of the 1840's and welcome immigrants to Ireland. Ireland is a fairly underpopulated country, so why should the Irish fear adding some new and interesting people to the mix of Irish life? How could the Irish expect the US to take Irish immigrants for so long and in such high numbers, but when the shoe is on the other foot, start baning on about changing the machisma of other countries(given the disasterous examples cited)?

Aspro

Typedef, you're wasting your time.

You can't turn Adolf into Mother Theresa. Mé Féiners only care about themselves and making money at the expense of others.

They are deliberately blind to the inequalities and injustices of our world because after all "people are selfish" etc etc crapology.

Has anyone considered that perhaps instead of simply absorpbing the flow of migration we should instead attempt to encourage them to solve the problems in their own countries- that this would help a lot more people than asylum currently does?

That is the most arrogant comment I've heard in a long while.
Yeah, cos people should be confined to one geographical area, shouldn't they? Those silly ignorant savages fighting amongst themselves. Our governments in the West have nothing to do with their situations, do they? Never supported a tin pot dictator or sold them weapons, did they?

If capital can flow freely across borders, so should people be able to. Human history is a history of migration and resettlement.

Lemming

Originally posted by Typedef
In the long run, countries like Ireland who are amongst the richest in the world could reap massive benefits from allowing high levels of immigration, just look at the United States, over 95% of it's citizens are colonists or are living on land that former colonists stole from the native Indians, so in a wider sense, allowing people who are self-starters, motivated and etc

And what happened to the native indians Typedef?? There's a lesson there. Technically those people you spout on about in the US ARE the colonists that you spoke of and that land STILL belongs rightfully to the native indians.

Also, as a woman pointed out about the famine on the radio last year, the Irish that left weren't given sh*te when they arrived into the US. They had to fend for themselves. They weren't given state assistance in any great shape or form. So equating the famine to the current influx of ECONOMIC migrants falsely claiming to be refugees is an insult to those that were forced to leave.

Whilst we're on the whole thingy of these people, I have no problem with migrants, but when they falsely gain entry to MY country, and exploit ME (tax payer) to support them and theirs, I have a VERY big problem.

Try to see what I'm saying instead of howling "racist" at every person that points out that MASSIVE exploitation of our system is being carried out. Nay .. let me rephrase that: the Irish asylum system is being systematically RAPED by chancers.

And what do you think that is doing for the chances of genuine asylum-seekers?? It's alienating the natives to people that truly need our support and sympathy. It's making it harder for them to become accepted or to gain asylum status because the system becomes more and more jaded and cynical to their plight. Consider the Bosnians taken in. Was there a fuss kicked up?? No, because people knew they were genuine and were sympathetic to them. What do you think would happen to a genuine asylum seeker in the current climate?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Aspro
If capital can flow freely across borders, so should people be able to.

Erm it does. It's called the EU.

I'm sure money doesn't flow all that freely from countries that people are trying to leave. It certainly doesn't across countries outside of the EU.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
Has anyone considered that perhaps instead of simply absorpbing the flow of migration we should instead attempt to encourage them to solve the problems in their own countries- that this would help a lot more people than asylum currently does? Given the standard doctrine of a refugee fleeing a dictatorship is it wise to encourage the opposition forces, that would in time reform their country with aid, to instead flee and leave the dictatorship in power? Which does the most good in the long run?

Yes, I can see it now...

"I'm sorry sir, you cant come in to Ireland for asylum. We know your political leaders jailed half your family, and killed your parents for alleged political activism, but we think you should return to your country and face these despots down. To help you, we will offer moral encouragement from our safe little corner here that you cant come in to. After all, thats why you havent overthrown your oppressive government to date - you werent getting our moral support. And just to show we're not all bad, we'll put you on a plane to make sure you get back there to fight this oppression as quickly as possible".

I dont think that will work somehow.

jc

Typedef

Originally posted by Lemming
And what happened to the native indians Typedef?? There's a lesson there. Technically those people you spout on about in the US ARE the colonists that you spoke of and that land STILL belongs rightfully to the native indians.

To be more acurate the indians were invaded and colonised by the industrial powers(Britian) and rising industrial powers(the first colonies), whereas the Irish are amongst the most affluent people in the world and there is no question of the government allowing such massive numbers of migrants to outnumber Irish 10 to 1, so stop trying to deflect the argument.

Also, as a woman pointed out about the famine on the radio last year, the Irish that left weren't given sh*te when they arrived into the US. They had to fend for themselves. They weren't given state assistance in any great shape or form. So equating the famine to the current influx of ECONOMIC migrants falsely claiming to be refugees is an insult to those that were forced to leave.

Insult? I think that there are huge equivalences between the Irish of the day who were socio-economic migrants and the 'refugees' of today, emphasis on the 'socio' portion of socio-economic. Now people can bury their heads in the Sand and simply ignore that Ireland is the second whitest country in the world and continue to 'talk tough' on immigrants or people can welcome multicultralism and diversity to the Republic.

Whilst we're on the whole thingy of these people, I have no problem with migrants, but when they falsely gain entry to MY country, and exploit ME (tax payer) to support them and theirs, I have a VERY big problem.

When you throw litter on the ground you are exploiting "Your country". There are parts of the world which are substantially poorer than Ireland and yes people want to have the opportunity to make money, that's not a crime, it should be ecouraged, especially by the right wing who are on a constant whinge about the left and the lefts money wasting(FYI Bill Clinton Leftist President: Avg Economic growth 4% pa, George Bush Rightist President: Avg Economic growth 1.7% pa). If Ireland weren't so xenophobic and racist, people who wanted to come to Ireland to make their fortunes would be free to do so, but no the Irish state long time pontificator of equality an fairness and freedom can't even stretch it's arcane and exclusionary immigration attitudes to abrogate a noose like Ireland being the second whitest country in the world, now that is nothing to do with refugees.

Try to see what I'm saying instead of howling "racist" at every person that points out that MASSIVE exploitation of our system is being carried out. Nay .. let me rephrase that: the Irish asylum system is being systematically RAPED by chancers.

The Irish Republic is the (let me say this again) second whitest country in the world, the Irish Republic is the bad guy here, get a grip.

It's alienating the natives to people that truly need our support and sympathy. It's making it harder for them to become accepted or to gain asylum status because the system becomes more and more jaded and cynical to their plight. Consider the Bosnians taken in. Was there a fuss kicked up?? No, because people knew they were genuine and were sympathetic to them. What do you think would happen to a genuine asylum seeker in the current climate?

Seeing as how your chances of getting "refugee status" are what 1 in 10, or was it 1 in 5, I don't think that this state will be swamped by a huge influx of "undesirable people" anytime soon, so you people burying your heads in the Sand can relax. What migrant people really want is for the Irsh to put there immigration laws where there supposed principals of Democracy and equality are and relax the laws regarding migration outside of EU countries, I don't want to live in a whites only, quasi-celtic supremecist, right wing, xenophobic place and people should stop whinging about "refugees defrauding the 'system'" or "taking jobs" and get up off of their prejudices and go and make a life for themselves.

Biffa Bacon

The Irish Republic is the (let me say this again) second whitest country in the world, the Irish Republic is the bad guy here

What's wrong with that? Also Typedef, what is your immigration policy? Who should be allowed in and who should not? I don't want Ireland to become a multicultural society because I think it would be an anlienating place to live.

Lemming

Originally posted by Typedef

Insult? I think that there are huge equivalences between the Irish of the day who were socio-economic migrants and the 'refugees' of today, emphasis on the 'socio' portion of socio-economic. Now people can bury their heads in the Sand and simply ignore that Ireland is the second whitest country in the world and continue to 'talk tough' on immigrants or people can welcome multicultralism and diversity to the Republic.

Yes .. "Insult". The difference is that we didn't go in and claim asylum (falsely too I might add) and expect to be handed money left right and centre. This is also NOT a case of "2nd whitest country in the world." As I do believe you said "Stop trying to deflect the arguement".

am trying to argue the cynical way in which WE (yup .. you, your family, me, mine, etc) are being exploited by these people who have no business claiming refugee status. If you wanted to move to another country as an econmic migrant, you'd be expected to pay your own way in said country. Yet ... these "refugees" expect us to set them up.

Seeing as how your chances of getting "refugee status" are what 1 in 10, or was it 1 in 5, I don't think that this state will be swamped by a huge influx of "undesirable people" anytime soon, so you people burying your heads in the Sand

Already happening. So pull your own head out of the sand. Housing can't cope, and the situation is costing the Irish taxpayer an enourmous sum of money per year, and growing ever and ever bigger.

What migrant people really want is for the Irsh to put there immigration laws where there supposed principals of Democracy and equality are and relax the laws regarding migration outside of EU countries.

Hmmm .. I do believe MOST countries are rather stringent about migration. Don't the USA hold a f*cking lottery for green cards ffs?? What about New Zealand?? You have to have min. £3000 (or equivalent Euro) in your bank account so you're self-sufficient and not walkign straight onto their social welfare??

besides ... 2 wrongs don't make a right, so these people can't claim the moral high-ground by falsely portraying themselves as refugees.

people should stop whinging about "refugees defrauding the 'system'"

90something percent of them ARE you twit!! (internal government figure)

Tell ye what ... the following ACTUALLY happened:

A family member of mine worked in the Dept. of Justice when a woman came in claiming to be from nigeria or somewhere with 2 children. So they went and get a translator.

The woman went off with the translator whilst the two children were left in the care of workers. One of the guys asked the yoiung boy - about 12 years old - (there was a boy and girl) if he liked football, not really expecting an answer. The boy responded in an ENGLISH accent that he followed Liverpool and had been to see them the week before, and that they (the family) were only over for the day on the boat for a "holiday".

"taking jobs" and get up off of their prejudices and go and make a life for themselves.

you said that Typedef .. not me. I have no problems with them working. it's the manner in which they are trying to get into the country that gets me p*ssed.

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
There are parts of the world which are substantially poorer than Ireland and yes people want to have the opportunity to make money, that's not a crime, it should be ecouraged

Absolutely, except that the so-called economic refugees are (to a large extent) believed to be coming over here to live off a generous welfare system. There are those who want to come here, get a job, and do well, but these are not the people whom Lemming is complaining about at a guess.

Seeing as how your chances of getting "refugee status" are what 1 in 10, or was it 1 in 5, I don't think that this state will be swamped by a huge influx of "undesirable people" anytime soon, so you people burying your heads in the Sand can relax

Now hang on a sec - you're the one complaining about the racism and xenophobia in our country which you want to see gone. Now you're saying that because so many refugees are refused (which you have in the past attributed at least in part to racism or xenophobia) that we dont need to worry about being swamped by them.

You cant have both sides. Either we are right to refuse them on a simple "numbers" basis, or we are racist.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

I don't want Ireland to become a multicultural society because I think it would be an anlienating place to live.

I see.

You would also accept then that every other nation in the world should also have the right to do so, and indeed would have been perfectly correct to tell the millions of Irish emigrants over the past 2 centuries to sod off?

Exactly what is alienating about multiculturalism, by the way, other than xenophobism ???

jc

Lemming

Originally posted by bonkey

Absolutely, except that the so-called economic refugees are (to a large extent) believed to be coming over here to live off a generous welfare system. There are those who want to come here, get a job, and do well, but these are not the people whom Lemming is complaining about at a guess.

Head of Nail ... .meet hammer!! Got it in one bonkey

I now await TypeDef and co to call me "racist" .

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by bonkey

You would also accept then that every other nation in the world should also have the right to do so, and indeed would have been perfectly correct to tell the millions of Irish emigrants over the past 2 centuries to sod off?

Yes and yes.

Exactly what is alienating about multiculturalism, by the way, other than xenophobism ???

Multiculturalism as I see it is where all cultures are considered equal, i.e. there is no defining national culture. This robs people of their identity, leading to alienation.

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Multiculturalism as I see it is where all cultures are considered equal, i.e. there is no defining national culture. This robs people of their identity, leading to alienation.

Ah - ok. As matter of interest, have you ever lived in a multicultural society?

Are you implying that America, Britain, and France (picking the three most multicultural western nations I can think of offhand) no longer have a national identity? If anything, the opposite is true. As foreigners start eroding the national identity, the natives rally round and become even more nationalistic. Over time the foreigners become "natives of foreign descent" and are integrated into the nationalistic identity. Take the large number of Pakistanis in England for example. While there are those who stick to themselves, and cling to their own ways, these people typically form tight small communities and wouldnt be in your way. Many more of them, however, embrace the nation they find themselves in, particularly one or two generations in.

Multicultural diversity, if anything, strengthens national identity in my opinion, and gives us all the chance to learn a little.

IMHO, people put too much weight on "loss of national identity". If its so fragile a thing that it cant withstand some competition then its a myth to begin with.

jc

tools

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

Multiculturalism as I see it is where all cultures are considered equal, i.e. there is no defining national culture. This robs people of their identity, leading to alienation.

Ah the voice of reason. We should instigate a massive "send 'em back where they came from" policy.
First we need samples of everyone's DNA. Starting with kicking out anyone of viking extraction, then we do the normans, then the bloody brits, then the even bloodier scots prods, then getting bang up to date, we boot out asians, blacks, americans, australians, western europeans, eastern europeans and so on. Irish "identity" must be reclaimed. We must go back to our roots, dancing at the crossroads with comely irish maidens, listening to the seanchai by the turf fire, and all that bolloks before it's too late.

We should ban travel in case anyone picks up alien cultural habits and infects the rest of us with them. Look at the damage the negro invention, so-called "rock and roll music", has done to our young people! We should also restrict information through the various media for the same reason. Who needs a newspaper when oul' Mickey O'Mick is there to sing us songs about the glorious exploits of the Fianna!?

If this policy cannot be carried out in full, even a partial success should be aimed for. Who is considered a greater threat to our identity and culture? It would have to be said that europeans with similar skin tones to ourselves stand much less chance of alienating our people so we should turn our immediate attention to more insidious dangerous races who have no intention of "fitting in" and adopting irish "culture" (our proud traditions of bad food, alcoholism and institutionalized child abuse) , such as the blacks, asians and arabs. We should follow Austria's Freedom Party's example and "encourage" them to leave.

Typedef

Originally posted by Lemming

I now await TypeDef and co to call me "racist" .

Prejudiced that you would say that about me,sure, but I don't have much evidence yet(to call you a racist more than a few times) in succession and mean it, but keep up the anti-foreigner tirade. I'm sure I can be pursuaded.

Funny thing is the common misconception that 4/5 people who apply for refugee status should be refused because they are all really trying to defraud the Irish state. Give me a break, 4 out of 5 refugee applicants are not trying to leech the state, that's just racist propaganda. The notion that tens of thousands of people from around the world are clambouring to get into Ireland as refugees and leech the state is just racist propaganda and paranoia. The reality is that Irish people don't want black people or east Europeans living in Ireland, sure the Irish are well capable(rightly so) of highlighting social injustice and marginilisation in Northern Ireland, just look at the Holy Cross situation if you need qualification, but when push comes to shove, the Irish don't have the courage of their convictions, becuase "we" not only have no compassion for foreigners and the ubiquitous "refugee", but actual contempt for them too.

Let me just say to you people who want to keep Ireland "pure" and monocultural, that life did not originate in Ireland, so in a sense all Irish people are migrants, therefore saying things like "I like Ireland for the Irish" is fine, but don't place constraints on who may and may not be Irish, once "our" ancestors weren't Irish too, so lets get down off of our high and might hypocritical horses and show some goddam human compassion.

Lemming

Originally posted by Typedef
Funny thing is the common misconception that 4/5 people who apply for refugee status should be refused because they are all really trying to defraud the Irish state. Give me a break, 4 out of 5 refugee applicants are not trying to leech the state, that's just racist propaganda. The notion that tens of thousands of people from around the world are clambouring to get into Ireland as refugees and leech the state is just racist propaganda and paranoia. The reality is that Irish people don't want black people or east Europeans living in Ireland.

Ermm ... actually .. 4/5 ARE trying to defraud the state. By claiming false asylum in order to migrate, they are carrying out defraudulent acts. And its NOT racist propoganda. As I've said elsewhere on these boards, several of my family members are civil servants (which dept.s they work for I'll not say) and lets just say ... I hear the information that NONE of you (or journalists) get to hear. I'm not divulging most of it, and I'll stop at what I've said already.

As for tens of thousands clambouring to get into the Ireland as refugees .. that IS a reality already again TypeDef, we're taking in over 10,000 people a year. The VAST majority are economic migrants, and not refugees as they claim.

As for the "reality" of Irish people not wanting blacks or whatever, I think you'll find that most of the ordinary punters out there are not against these people, but are against the fact that they are being taken for a ride by chancers. I'd not be so quick to brand this country racist without taking into account that most ordinary people feel that they are being taken advantage of willy-nilly by bogus claimants.

For example, if someone's taking me for a ride, I'll be amazingly stubborn, and un-cooperative with them, verging on agressive. If they're not, well then, let the good times roll and lets live together in peace.

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
Funny thing is the common misconception that 4/5 people who apply for refugee status should be refused because they are all really trying to defraud the Irish state. Give me a break, 4 out of 5 refugee applicants are not trying to leech the state, that's just racist propaganda.

You have of course, evidence of this?

I presume, also, that there is evidence that either those who make the decisions are racist, or that they have racist guidelines handed to them? At the end of the day, these are the people who make the case-by-case decisions....not the public.

if you dont have evidence , then at best you have a conspiracy theory, and at worst are blatantly slandering the state employees who run the immigration services.

The notion that tens of thousands of people from around the world are clambouring to get into Ireland as refugees and leech the state is just racist propaganda and paranoia.

Really? I thought the reality was that Ireland had (until recently at least) one of the easiest "entry paths", which was accompanied with some of the best treatment and funding for refugees.

Also, are you implying that there arent thousands of people seeking to get in to Ireland? That the annual figures presented by the government are somehow faked to grossly exaggerate the problem? Again - can you provide a shred of evidence, or is this just another rage against the machine?

The reality is that Irish people don't want black people or east Europeans living in Ireland,

This does not have any bearing on whether or not these people are trying to get in, or whether or not people are trying to get in to abuse the system.

If we are so unwelcoming, why do we still have one of the most refugee-friendly sets of laws? And why do they still come here? Why dont they go somewhere which is refugee friendly?

While I agree with you that Ireland is a highly racist nation, I firmly believe that you are oversimplifying the problem down to a single issue. The fact is that there is truth in both sides.

Yes we are a racist nation.
Yes we are unwelcoming to large numbers of refugees.
Yes, we offer (or had to recently) some of the best treatment for refugees,
Yes, we were one of the more open nations for refugees.

jc

Typedef

bonkey let me revise up the statistic of 4/5 the actual numbers seem to be much higher
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2000/0523/hom24.htm

Originally posted by Lemming
Ermm ... actually .. 4/5 ARE trying to defraud the state. By claiming false asylum in order to migrate, they are carrying out defraudulent acts. And its NOT racist propoganda. As I've said elsewhere on these boards, several of my family members are civil servants (which dept.s they work for I'll not say) and lets just say ... I hear the information that NONE of you (or journalists) get to hear. I'm not divulging most of it, and I'll stop at what I've said already.

Emm the same civil servants that are denying 4/5 applications for asylum? Hardly surprising you have such a cynical outlook on refugees is it?

As for tens of thousands clambouring to get into the Ireland as refugees .. that IS a reality already again TypeDef, we're taking in over 10,000 people a year. The VAST majority are economic migrants, and not refugees as they claim.

No, the vast majority get labelled as so by this right wing government which is just playing to Irish peoples fears and prejudices and entrenching the "whites only" policy of the Republic.

As for the "reality" of Irish people not wanting blacks or whatever, I think you'll find that most of the ordinary punters out there are not against these people, but are against the fact that they are being taken for a ride by chancers.

Do you mean the likes of Michael Lowry, Liam Lawlor and John Redmond or welfare recipeints?

I'd not be so quick to brand this country racist without taking into account that most ordinary people feel that they are being taken advantage of willy-nilly by bogus claimants.

Bogus, whats bogus is the fact that there is one count em one other country that has a higher portion of white people to non-white in the world bar the Republik, hmm I'm not saying that implys that Ireland is a racist, secratian and hypocritical place, but that fact coupled with the fact that 4/5 of asylum seekers get branded as "economic leeches", I would have to say that yes, it does mean the country is racist. I mean come on , how many people do you know who call black people the N word, how many of you do it yourselves? If the Irish are not so racist then why do "we" seem so?

For example, if someone's taking me for a ride, I'll be amazingly stubborn, and un-cooperative with them, verging on agressive.

Well whatever gets you off pal, that is really not my issue.

Lemming

Originally posted by Typedef

Emm the same civil servants that are denying 4/5 applications for asylum? Hardly surprising you have such a cynical outlook on refugees is it?

Excuse me?? Are you calling my family members racists?? Who are you to judge people you've never met you prejudiced little sh*t?? You've just overstepped the mark sunshine.

My family have done NOTHING to offend you, so how dare you attack them by implying that they are racist. It's me that you're arguing with, NOT them, so if you're gonna have a go at someone have a go at me.

Do you mean the likes of Michael Lowry, Liam Lawlor and John Redmond or welfare recipeints?

I think you'll find most people want the likes of Lawlor hung drawn and quarted, and bertie is skating on thin ice in terms of policical survival over this one.

As for welfare recipients ... the ones that never work out of sheer laziness and are perfectly capable of it ... yes I am referring to them. I am also referring to those that are moonlighting whilst claiming.

Bogus, whats bogus is the fact that there is one count em one other country that has a higher portion of white people to non-white in the world bar the Republik, hmm I'm not saying that implys that Ireland is a racist,

yes you are actually, by implication. And as I've said before ... that above point as no bearing on this discussion and you're simply trying to use sensationalism to deflect people from the arguement at hand.

but that fact coupled with the fact that 4/5 of asylum seekers get branded as "economic leeches"

Have you considered the fact that 4/5 actually ARE trying to take advantage of the welfare system?? How about all those romanians for one?? Most of them are claiming under several different aliases and then sending the money home to Romania. The romanian consul has even stated that they are migrants, not refugees

Sand

Okay Type, lets dance:cool:

Do you people know that Ireland is the second whitest country in the world, sad fact.

I read this and immediately thought Guilty White Male. Also the hypocrisy of assuming a country which as less white would magically be more left wing (why should this make me happier? )from a person who thinks profiling is racist. Britain is the closest multi cultural society to ours, personally I cant wait till Ireland can celebrate its first racial riots in cities. And to enlighten you I couldnt give one plumdrop if Ireland was the whitest country in the world let alone the second. Im not as concerned with race as you are.

Like how "we" helped the Afghani people solve their problems?

Yeah pretty much. Repressive taliban gone, representivie interim government in. Win , win. Course "we" didnt do much except not get in the way.

As for the CAP you seem to misunderstand what my economic views are- I dont agree with CAP, if farming is not economically viable for small farmers then they shouldnt be in the bussiness. The rest of your rant is thus ****e.

Same for the Irish famine- They didnt get any state aid, the american economy required a lot of low skilled workers for its labour intensive economy and the "taming" of the west was still occuring. Im not so sure Irelands economic posistion demands an influx of unskilled migrants tbh especially given the infrastructural strain mentioned.

I don't want to live in a whites only, quasi-celtic supremecist, right wing, xenophobic place

Move to Rwanda then. Oh wait theyre a black only, quasi hutu supremacist, right wing , xenophobic place. Kinda blows your whole argument about multi culturalism out of the water doesnt it?

Bonkey:

Multicultural diversity, if anything, strengthens national identity in my opinion, and gives us all the chance to learn a little.

I assume you dont mean the arranged marraiges, female genital mutilation and other anti female practices (nice neck rings, shame about the neck)? I can guarantee someones going to jump on me for daring to cast a negative light on multiculturism but i dont honestly give a crap tbh:)

As Lemming said Ive also heard stories regarding "refugees". Amazing the amount of "Nigerians" with Mancunian accents.

Ive got to say my last post was an attempt to take racism out of the debate. Im glad to see the old reliable Judean Peopls Front grabbed the argument by the scruff of the neck to direct it back to the racist fundamentals. Its pretty much the only argument they have.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by bonkey

Ah - ok. As matter of interest, have you ever lived in a multicultural society?

No.

Are you implying that America, Britain, and France (picking the three most multicultural western nations I can think of offhand) no longer have a national identity?

I would say they have lost something of their original national identity, something I don't want to happen in Ireland.
Let's be clear, I'm not saying I don't want any foreigners living in Ireland, I just don't want their cultures being given equal status with our indigenous culture.

tools: I really don't see the point in satirising views I never expressed.

Typedef

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

I just don't want their cultures being given equal status with our indigenous culture.

tools: I really don't see the point in satirising views I never expressed.

Errm go join the DUP so, or better yet expell all the Catholics as Catholicism is not indigenous, yes expell anyone who does not hold old celtic beliefs, or rather make them and their culture a lesser sub-culture, a symbiot culture of second class citizens. Remember how the Nationalists in the North of Ireland were campainging for "parity of esteem"? Do I take it you don't support this cause or you just don't support "parity of esteem" for whatever your tunnel view of Irishness is?

Yeah pretty much. Repressive taliban gone, representivie interim government in. Win , win. Course "we" didnt do much except not get in the way.

Come on Sand, the "allies" are already talking about the "Balkanisation" of Afghanistan or how it may well degenerate into another civil war, and what do the allies propose to do if that happens? Seems pretty clear if you believe the commentators in the British media that the "allies" will attempt to enact a "civil" government and if the region destabilises will put up their hands and say "not our problem, we tried, look we even tried to enact a civil government", right yeah, the attitude is not even worth the lies it's told on.

Oh and the Common Agricultural Policy is as much a machisma of neo-colonialism as it is a mechanism of agricultural economic placation within the CAP area. I can substanciate claims that unfair trade restrictions and the use of the economic dominance of the EU over developing countries is having an adverse affect on the developing countries. So in a wider sense the Irish are more than ready to use the CAP to their advantage and the advantage of the EU and refuse at the same time to take refugees from third world and developing countries, so do you know what that makes us? Neo-colonialists, xenophobic economic neo-colonialists.

If the Irish are so liberated in their racial attitudes (barring above quote) then why are so few Nigerian applicants approved for refugee status, remember that Nigeria was under a repressive military junta that was supported by our friends the Shell petro-chemical corporation. http://www.essential.org/monitor/hyper/mm1297.02.html

How could the Irish deny the legitimate preogative of people seeking refuge from a country that is in economic and political doldrums post this military junta ? A junta supported for one greedy corporations oil interests? I would call it racism, pure and simple as the case for refugee status is clear. I know lots of people would like to think that Ireland is so important and tales of Ireland have travelled so far that people all over the world know of our "give away" social welfare system, but the reality, the facts are that, that simply is not the case. No one could care less about getting out of Nigeria so that they could be on social welfare in a country most people on this planet couldn't find on a map, get a life.

Sand

Not racism Type - Its economics- Irelands economy improves beyond all recognition and our "refugee" intake grows beyond all recognition. From 39 to 10938 (28000% + growth) in 8 years. The vast majority of them arent refugees but rather economic migrants, not covered by Ireland obligations and thus refused asylum. It really is that simple unless youve got some way of explaining why applications have grown so dramatically since 1992 (when there was 39 applications for the entire year).

The afghans are a lot better off now than they were under the Taliban. It was done a relatively little cost. Win, win.

Think youll find the CAP has more to do with vote buying from the farmers than vaguely defined neo colonialism or whatever.

The Gopher

How can we be second most white?With the exception of gypsies in Romaina,Ex Soviet areas,Czechslovakia and Serbia there are practically no non whites in the likes of Poland,Albania,Croatia Bosnia etc.