Broadband and FRIACO

Xian

key:
sv=the silicon valley article http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svtop/broad011502.htm in Gavin's thread "Broadband in the US"
wp=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45676-2002Jan14.html

sv:
"A group of Silicon Valley business leaders today will call on the president and Congress to make high-speed Internet access available to every U.S. home and business by 2010."

wp:
"To date, roughly 80 percent of the country's homes have broadband service available to them -- via cable lines, satellite or souped-up telephone lines (known as digital subscriber lines, or DSL). Yet only about 10 percent, or 10 million homes, have signed up"

sv:
"The growth rate in broadband subscribers in the United States has decreased every quarter for about two years...TechNet attributes the slowing growth to a number of factors, including the weak economy, cumbersome state and federal government regulations, and the failure of the 1996 federal law that deregulated telecommunications services."

wp:
"In a recent test in LaGrange, Ga., 13,000 of the town's homes were offered broadband, free of charge, for a year. Only half the town wanted it."

sv
"The group calls on industry leaders to resolve copyright disputes to increase the amount of online digital entertainment available to consumers."

wp:
"At current broadband speeds "it would take longer to download a movie than to go to a video store and rent it," Rick Lane, vice president of government affairs for entertainment and media giant News Corp."

wp:
"Now, residential-level broadband service is essential to many small and home-based businesses, which rely on the Internet for conducting commerce."

I would add to the last "and the technically literate".

The industry heavy-hitters are after broadband because the computer buying public are tired of upgrading to a 1.8 Gigahertz machine when the one they bought when Windows 98 was hot off the presses does them just fine. It does word-processing, spreadsheets and it can surf the web just fine for what they've found on it. The industry wants broadband because that's the bottleneck to the delivery of "the next big thing" that will make people buy computers again. It wouldn't be wise of IrelandOffline to feed that beast. My bet is on Apple showing that the way to sell computers is through imagination and (a much-abused word at the moment) innovation rather than asking the Government for a hand-out to subsidize their vision of a superstate where everyone has a Passport, a hotmail account and virtual front-row seats in the Colosseum with Mike Tyson vs. the Christians as the headline act.

The fact is when you say "We want broadband" who are you talking for? Seamas Public? I don't think so. Seamas doesn't want broadband because there's nothing on the internet that he would want broadband *for*. He just wants to check his email, check his bank balance, check the news sites when Mount Etna erupts and the news isn't on the telly for another hour. It means the kids don't bother him with questions he doesn't know the answer to when they're doing their homework. When his wife's out on the town he might sneak in a couple of hours surfing the porn sites. Hate to say it but €ircom with their mutant mouse got Seamas spot on. What he doesn't want, however, is a surprise the next time the phone bill arrives. He wants to budget for the same amount every month for using the internet when he wants, money being tight what with the mortgage and all. The first time he gets a surprise like that it's cancel the subscription for the second phone line and hide the phone cable so the kids have to ask permission to use the internet. This is where € got it wrong. The mouse campaign was because Soula & co. were baffled why people weren't surfing when the answer's right in front of them. FRIACO!

When you point to the prices being offered for broadband in Britain, you've got to ask what percentage of the population is using it? If it's anything like the American scenario, how come the price is half that of the States when broadband companies are falling like flies across the water? Are there subsidies involved or is it a case of (the now discredited) loss-leading? I don't know. What I do know is that *this* is the bottom line that €ircom is looking at. The demand for domestic broadband simply isn't there.

Which leaves the question what price are you *really* prepared to pay for broadband?If you download music, how much are you prepared to pay rather than buying it on cd? If you are a gamer, how much would you spend in a year of your only outlet was a PS2? How long would €50 in coins last you in an amusement arcade? If you are a small business what would you be willing to pay to be able to access quicky the resources you need and be able to budget monthly for the service you are getting? Subsidizing is a bad remedy if it is to satisfy a minority and a minority is what the bulk of the members of IrelandOffline belong to: the technically literate and home-based businesses. The answer to this question, not Etain Doyle, is going to decide the price and speed of the rollout of broadband in Ireland.

Broadband, as Dahamsta said, is inevitable. Looking at the boards, the majority of you aren't going to be happy with the price it's going to be. If you think it's too much, then it wasn't really worth that much to you in the first place or you would love to have a porche but are stuck with the lada because it's what you can afford right now. Tough.

In the meantime, IrelandOffline's efforts are better used campaigning for what isn't on the table in the current discussions and for which there is a *real* public need. Something which is important to the public and fundamental to our international standing as a technology centre of Europe therefore warrants subsidization. FRIACO.

Fergus

Indeed, the UK has shown that FRIACO is the business-model of choice for moving the general public collectively up a notch, and creating a wide demand for broadband.

It has also shown that the regulator and the incumbent (BT) can solve all the technical, legal and financing issues to provide a wholesale flat-rate product to other operators across the existing PSTN infrastructure. The phone system hasn't collapsed. ISPs and BT are able to sustain a service to the consumer indefinitely at STG15/month.

Somebody give me a proper reason (apart from Eircom's downright greed and inefficiency) why the same cannot be done here, and we'll do our best to rubbish it.

Yoda

Xian said:
What he doesn't want, however, is a surprise the next time the phone bill arrives. He wants to budget for the same amount every month for using the internet when he wants, money being tight what with the mortgage and all. The first time he gets a surprise like that it's cancel the subscription for the second phone line and hide the phone cable so the kids have to ask permission to use the internet. This is where € got it wrong. The mouse campaign was because Soula & co. were baffled why people weren't surfing when the answer's right in front of them. FRIACO!
(...)
In the meantime, IrelandOffline's efforts are better used campaigning for what isn't on the table in the current discussions and for which there is a *real* public need. Something which is important to the public and fundamental to our international standing as a technology centre of Europe therefore warrants subsidization. FRIACO.

Xian is right. At present I have a 56K modem and a standard of connection speed that may not be the coolest most wicked-fast thing available, but it serves my needs except when I have to download a System upgrade from Apple. That takes a long time, which is a bit annoying.

But I can live with it. I am living with it.

What I cannot live with is that I have to pay for it by the minute. My business is small. It's heavily dependent on the web. I have to use the web when and for however long I need to use it each day, to do research or communicate. I can't predict from day to day how long I'll be on. And I can't predict from month to month what my bill is going to be. And it's been like that for years. It hurts me and it hurts my business. And that hurts Ireland -- because there is NO WAY that I am the only one in that situation.

I grew up in the States, so naturally I expected that a local phone call would cost me 10¢ no matter how long I was on. When I came to Ireland in 1989 a local phone call cost 15p or less, I don't remember, but it was that price for no matter how long I was on. I remember when Telecom Éireann changed to a per-minute tariff, because for one reason or another we had a phone repairman in the house and he and I chatted about it. The real reason, he said, that Telecom had gone to the per-minute charge for local calls wasn't a need to make money off home users and small businesses. It was to make money off the big companies who were dialling in at 8:00 in the morning on Monday and hanging up at 17:00 on Friday, using whatever equivalent of internet services there were at the time. Telecom wanted the revenue from them. Now of course all those companies pay their flat fee for fast 24-hour connection.

And we ordinary consumers are stuck paying when it hurts. When other people in other countries don't have to.

Why can't the government do something about this? For if they do not, nothing will happen.

Why can't the government consider this a priority? For if they do not, the pain we ordinary consumers are stuck with won't go away.

Please?

Yoda

NeilF

sv
"The group calls on industry leaders to resolve copyright disputes to increase the amount of online digital entertainment available to consumers."

wp:
"At current broadband speeds "it would take longer to download a movie than to go to a video store and rent it," Rick Lane, vice president of government affairs for entertainment and media giant News Corp."

This is part of the problem with broadband. The telcos thought that they could turn their monopoly on the phone lines into a media monopoly by streaming everything. The Internet is a network of computers around the world. It is not a television or cinema, nor is it a stereo.

Which leaves the question what price are you *really* prepared to pay for broadband?

That is the big bold figure at the bottom of your current Eircom bill.

Looking at the boards, the majority of you aren't going to be happy with the price it's going to be. If you think it's too much, then it wasn't really worth that much to you in the first place or you would love to have a porche but are stuck with the lada because it's what you can afford right now. Tough.

I think IrelandOffline is working for two groups. We are the first group. People who own businesses that use or need the Internet, people who are in industries where they could work from home if they had a good connection to their office, people working or studying in IT or electronics. We already know what the Internet can do for us; we know how expensive it is and we know how slow it is. We want reasonable broadband now so we can run small servers at home or in an office, use an office network remotely as fast as if you were there, have an always-on connection, download software and documentation and use technology others in the western world take for granted.

The other group is the rest of Ireland. We've seen the Internet and we think that the rest of the population should be able to get on-line cheaply and easily, so that they can experience email, visit local business' websites and use the web for research or homework. Tesco's shopping site is a brilliant example of how you can use the Internet in your daily life. For this group, broadband would be overkill, at the moment. FRIACO is what they need now.

We need both. To get widespread availability of either would be a great achievement. FRIACO will probably come first because it is easier to implement but that is no reason to ignore broadband. For some their livelihoods depend on it.

pete

Originally posted by Fergus
Somebody give me a proper reason (apart from Eircom's downright greed and inefficiency) why the same cannot be done here, and we'll do our best to rubbish it.

Beofre I read this thread, the best (only?) reason I'd seen suggested for Telecom Eireann's move away from flat rate local call charging was a need to subsidise falling revenues from long distance / international business.

Make of that what you will.

Manic

I cumminicate every day with people in the US and what takes them between 5 and 15 seconds to send, takes me 4 to 5 hours to download. One simple 5meg diagramme takes seconds for them to send , but on a 56k modem how long do you think it takes to download ? How can anyone compete with those speeds in Ireland ? Ireland it totally non compatable for any buisness outside Ireland or even inside Ireland at the moment. Eircom seems to like it that way for some reason. But i for 1 do NOT. Nice one Eircom Tossers!

Dustaz

Originally posted by Xian
The fact is when you say "We want broadband" who are you talking for? Seamas Public? I don't think so. Seamas doesn't want broadband because there's nothing on the internet that he would want broadband *for*.

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong.
This is what people said about the email when it first arrived, Its what they said about Email when it first arrived.
Im fond of the phrase 'Everyone has a place on the internet, they just need to find it.'. Whether its downloading 5megs of linux distrobutions per day , playing games or discussing recipes, theres some area of interest for everyone out there. 99 times out of 100, this area can be enjoyed AND exploited more with a better than 56k connection.

A good example is a circle of my friends. They are Joe and Joesephine Public. All of them use e-mail, most of them look at the web at some stage or another and none of them go further than that. They tend to distrust anything outside the WWW and email and refer to it as the domain of the geek.

Except one of them.
Before i got ADSL, my flatemate didnt know one end of a computer from another. He had an ireland.com account which he could only barely manage, rarely looked at the web and was the worlds biggest net-o-phile. Any conversation about the internet, access speeds or broadband would result in glazed eyes.
Ever since we got broadband however, he regards the internet in a whole new light. With web pages and downloads at a speed that you would expect, his bookmarks and program folder - that great barometer of residential internet usage - has expanded exponentially. Ive lost count of the amount of times hes turned around and said, literally, "this is the way it should be, I cant understand why more ppl dont have this" in a zen sort of way.

I guess what im trying to say is that every area of internet uisage gets an appreciable boost from broadband, be it Downloading mp3's, uploading your latest digital video classic for the world to see or video conferencing with young barry in Australia.

In short, Joe public doesnt need broadband because they dont HAVE broadband and have no idea why they would need it. Make it available, affordable and with a little investment eircom would have a cash cow for years to come.


Edit: Im not saying that FRIACO isnt important, it is, but broadband is vital

NeilF

Originally posted by Dustaz
Before i got ADSL, my flatemate didnt know one end of a computer from another.

But what if you weren't on the trial? Would you pay a couple of hundred pounds for an install and £80 or £100 per month for 12 months just to see this Internet thing? It's like Fergus said. FRIACO allows everyone to try and use the Internet without worrying about the cost. However, like your flatmate, a lot of people will like what they see and then be prepared to spend more on ADSL.

dahamsta

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong.

LOL

Edit: Im not saying that FRIACO isnt important, it is, but broadband is vital

It is, absolutely, but FRIACO is an essential part of that; it's an essential stepping stone to broadband services, and this has been proved and highlighted several times in the UK and other countries recently. When you add the need for Ireland to "get connected" to that - which is absolutely vital - FRIACO becomes far more important. And this is bolstered by the fact that broadband is progressing. Broadband is being discussed, it's being rolled out, it's being negotiated. FRIACO isn't, which is why it should be far more important for IrelandOffline to tackle right now. Remember, IrelandOffline's job isn't to actually roll out services, or to negotiate prices, it's to highlight the issues and push others into doing those things.

BTW, this is a fascinating thread, one of the best I've seen on the IO forum for quite some time. Please continue.

adam

Fooger

Personally I think if adsl is uncapped and at a reasonable price it could facilitate a flat-rate dial-up option from eircon as it would be irrelevant not to but because of its huge dependence on the leased line market it views adsl as a threat and so introduced a cap which would theoretically stop any businesses from using the product but in reality (or as far as I know) the leased line market is so over priced and with so little bandwidth that it could be under threat from 3G phones

p.s. i normally don't post but i would like to thank IOFFL for the work it has done up till now as i am also one of those who were disconnected from IOL

thanks

Fergus

Another point of note about FRIACO is that the capacity of eircom's voice telephone network must be sufficient to meet peak demand during business hours.

Although the demand goes down massively during offpeak, the capacity remains the same at all times. So there is definitely bags of spare capacity available for Internet users staying on all the time at least during off-peak .. requiring no capital expenditure to cater for it, and incurring no additional marginal costs.

Also, the per-minute charging of internet calls could be (theoretically) defended on the basis that it is to subsidise a low line rental.

The problem is
(a) the line rental is comparable to other regions (e.g. Hull, England*), where the local calls are untimed or unlimited, so it should be enough to completely cover the cost of the service and all calls made.

(b) the average duration and quantity of internet calls is far greater than voice calls (tens, maybe hundreds of times), but the 'per-minute' charges are designed to achieve adequate returns based on pre-internet short voice calls. eircom are trying to apply excessive rates designed for low demand / short calls to high-volume internet users (i.e. they are shafting them).

* http://www.kcltd.co.uk/residential-main.html : Monthly rental of STG7.34 provides for local calls at 6.46p each regardless of length. Or, monthly rental of 19.93 includes unlimited local calls with zero charge per call.

Yoda

Originally posted by NeilF
I think IrelandOffline is working for two groups. We are the first group. People who own businesses that use or need the Internet, people who are in industries where they could work from home if they had a good connection to their office, people working or studying in IT or electronics. We already know what the Internet can do for us; we know how expensive it is and we know how slow it is. We want reasonable broadband now so we can run small servers at home or in an office, use an office network remotely as fast as if you were there, have an always-on connection, download software and documentation and use technology others in the western world take for granted.

The other group is the rest of Ireland. We've seen the Internet and we think that the rest of the population should be able to get on-line cheaply and easily, so that they can experience email, visit local business' websites and use the web for research or homework. Tesco's shopping site is a brilliant example of how you can use the Internet in your daily life. For this group, broadband would be overkill, at the moment. FRIACO is what they need now.

I really can't agree with this. In the first place, the distinction you propose between "us and the rest of Ireland is completely bogus.

I own a home-based business which is strongly internet-based. I know what the Internet can do for me; I know how expensive it is and I know how slow it is. I know what always being online would mean, and I know what having a server would mean. I know what I might be able to have, and I know what I need.

What I see, right now, every month, is an outrageous phone bill, the size of which I cannot predict from month to month. This hurts my business. It makes it very difficult to plan for growth, or for hardware upgrades, and so on.

I do not "need" broadband now. I need FRIACO. I need an affordable Internet service. Its speed does not matter that much to me. Sure, my 56K modem is a lot better than the 14K modem I had a few years ago. Sure, broadband would be better than that.

What I need, what you need, and what Seán Citizen needs is a flat-rate internet service. Something predictable and affordable.

IOFFL is far too focussed on broadband. This, in my opinion, jeopardizes the hope for affordable Internet service. We need public transportation. The Porsche can come later.

Ireland needs FRIACO, as a matter of priority. 1891 numbers are not good enough.

It is crazy. In 1989, a local phone call cost 10p no matter how long you talked. The same system was available in the States and in other countries. The reason people in the States have FRIACO? Because when the internet came on the scene, that billing model was in effect. If it had been in effect here in Ireland when the internet came on the scene, we would have FRIACO. The culprit? Telecom Éireann in 1990, changing from a model that works perfectly well to a model that made them more money than can easily be imagined.

Is the ODTR listening?

NeilF

Originally posted by Yoda
I do not "need" broadband now. I need FRIACO.

What I need, what you need, and what Seán Citizen needs is a flat-rate internet service. Something predictable and affordable.

IOFFL is far too focussed on broadband.

I would consider FRIACO suitable for residential use, just to checking email, buying books from Amazon, doing a bit of research on Google etc. and for someone like an estate agent, who would use it to check their email a few times during the day and to update their website perhaps two or three times a week.

On the other hand FRIACO is not suitable for an IT professional who is sending and receiving email on an almost continuous basis, possibly working on remote systems and transferring large files several times a day. I agree that it is far better than the current situation but that doesn't make it right.

IT professionals need fast, uncapped, always-on connections that they can use all day. FRIACO is not designed to act as a 24/7 means of connecting to the Internet. It is only meant to provide a fixed cost for how you currently use the Internet, but if it it is released before ADSL and it is going to decimate your phone bill you will take it up.

However, people in the UK have been thrown off FRIACO access because they used it as if it was a leased line. You might get away with it for several months but it would only be a matter of time before you got another "Esat-2000" letter. If the Internet is central to your business could you afford that? I doubt it. You should be using broadband and you should not be paying an-arm-and-a-leg for it.

Eircom have already made a fine job of messing up Internet access in this country. We've taken the first step in coming together to get what everyone else in the western world takes for granted. If we're going to do it lets do it properly and not accept second best.

dahamsta

Hi Yoda, nice to see you around again.

IOFFL is far too focussed on broadband. This, in my opinion, jeopardizes the hope for affordable Internet service. We need public transportation. The Porsche can come later.

Certainly on the forum, broadband - DSL in particular - gets an inordinate amount of attention, when flat-rate has always been (or at least /should/ have been) our primary concern. I think there's good reason behind that though, mostly that the broadband process is moving, ever so slowly, towards fruition. It's topical, it's being discussed, and that obviously pushes us towards discussing it; and of course that pushed the organisation as a whole into giving it what could be considered too much attention. I accept that, it was wrong; but to be fair, we're still newbies when you get right down to it.

We did recognise it late last year though, when LLU started bearing fruit, and we have been addressing it quite heavily /off/ the forum. A few of us had a meeting a couple of months ago, discussing how to better organise the group, and after that we had a short informal chat about where we should be going. That resulted in the topic being discussed more heavily on our mailing list, and now we're at the stage where our discussions on the FRIACO situation are gathering momentum pretty rapidly.

You can see this already spilling over into the public forum, but the working groups have an integral part to play in our making FRIACO an issue. It's a particularly difficult subject to bring into the public eye, because there are so many issues involved, such as the most basic question of why no-one seems to have even applied for FRIACO-style access yet. We have to go into this absolutely knowing the arguments our "adverseries" - and in this case, that includes pretty much /everyone/ - are going to throw at us, so we can throw it right back in their faces.

The only way we can do that with reasonable certainty is with organisation. We need to research what's involved with FRIACO - how it works; what technical, regulatory and commercial obstacles exist. We need to poll our membership - and if possible increase it, to get a wider demographic - so we can guage and present levels of interest. And we'll need to approach and talk to the right people, at the right time, with the right information, to actually get something done. I think you'll probably see where I'm going with this by now - the Working Groups are the key.

Now that the Working Groups are coming together - I set up mailing lists and websites today - we're on the right track. We have a bee in our bonnet about FRIACO - Fergus has a whole swarm - and although we're not going to just dump broadband by the wayside, we are going to let it run its own course to a degree in the next few months. FRIACO is very much on our agenda, and we have what we think are some pretty natty ideas to try and force the issue. We're looking into the viability of those ideas at the moment, but we have backups - if they're not viable, we'll come up with something else.

Is the ODTR listening?

If you're talking about FRIACO, I think the answer is that they /are/ listening, but they're not going to actually /do/ anything, because they don't see it as their job or their problem. We're in a bit of a chicken and egg situation here:

- The ODTR will say that in a regulated environment, pricing will never be agreed before someone defines and applies for a product or service, so it's up to the OLO's, and it's not their problem.
- Eircom will tell you that no-one has applied for a product or service, so it's not their problem.
- The OLO's will tell you that it's not feasible for them to invest into a product or service without an idea of the costs involved, so it's not ther problem.

In other words, to start the process, someone has to, well, start the process, and it pretty much has to be an OLO. Esat seem unwilling to do that, and we as an organisation have difficulty understanding why that could be. As Fergus has pointed out, FRIACO /is/ viable for all parties involved when it's priced at or around £15. There is no viable argument that anyone can give us to refute that, or at least none that we can't turn on its head and shout quite loudly about.

Why have I singled out Esat on this occasion? Well, with their LLU program, Esat have already proved themselves capable of creating and managing this process, even in light of that fact that pricing has still to be resolved. So why aren't they applying for FRIACO? They have a customer base ready to migrate, they have experience with the product, they have the organisation and the wedge to do it tomorrow. So why haven't they? I have no idea, and no-one I've talked to has either. But of course, Esat isn't the only OLO or ISP out there. Why hasn't anyone else applied?

This is what we've been asking ourselves, this and a whole lot more. But in case the point hasn't been made, it's not a matter of whether or not the ODTR is listening or not at the moment, it's a case of why the OLO's appear so reticent. We'd /like/ the ODTR to take more of an interest in this, we'd /love/ them to mandate a FRIACO product or service, but that's very unlikely to happen, and it's certainly /not/ going to happen before the Communications Bill is enacted. So let's be realistic, and lay the blame where it belongs.

adam

dahamsta

Neil,

On the other hand FRIACO is not suitable for an IT professional who is sending and receiving email on an almost continuous basis, possibly working on remote systems and transferring large files several times a day. I agree that it is far better than the current situation but that doesn't make it right.

I think it's important to point out that Yoda /is/ an IT professional, and it's quite obvious that he knows what he wants, and he's put some research into finding that. I'm an IT professional too, and although I would absolutely love a broadband connection at a reasonable price, in the current situation I would have to think very carefully if both FRIACO and broadband were available to me.

Just to tackle one point in particular in your argument - sending and receiving email all day has very little reliance on bandwidth, unless you're consistently transferring files. Email can work in the background continously, while you're doing other things. So while you're reading one email, another five can be downloading in the background. Files is another matter, but it is still possible to operate reasonably well with a flat-rate connection. I managed it for quite some time on NoLimits, and I work the Internet hard - I'm a web developer, my whole day relies on it.

On top of all of that, there's the fact - and it is a provable fact - that flat-rate Internet services serve as a stepping stone to broadband services for the larger population. Most people won't jump straight to broadband, they need a taste of what can be had. And we can't forget about those people, not just because they're part of what we're fighting for, but because without them, broadband will never become mainstream. It will remain a luxury service, and that means it will /stay/ expensive. The prices won't come down, because there won't be demand.

Of course, now I'm pandering to your original argument, so I'll shut up before Yoda eats the head off me.

Eircom have already made a fine job of messing up Internet access in this country. We've taken the first step in coming together to get what everyone else in the western world takes for granted. If we're going to do it lets do it properly and not accept second best.

None of the above is meant to cheapen or belittle the need for broadband - in fact if anything, it's the opposite when you consider my final point - but again, broadband is progressing, flat-rate isn't. We have to prioritise. In the long term, FRIACO will do far more for broadband that broadband will on its tod. It's been proven it's a stepping stone. At the moment, that stepping stone is underwater; we have to yoink it up so people can stand on it.

adam

dragonkin

Ok I fully agree that FRIACO is essential... I'm a heavy internet user and although I would like broadband to download all my mp3s and movies, realisticly I don't think I'm gonna get it. Simple.

I believe that the OTDR "can" do something about FRIACO, they can make it happen eircom/esat have no excuse. Infrastructure, money etc just don't cut it and with only their greed they haven't a leg to stand on. They just need to be told, irrefutabley.

Regarding this I think a petition for broadband, but focusing on FRIACO will show that demand is there and people are fed up being offered a terrible service for terrrible prices. We are not a third world country!
So I decided to see what I could do so I created an electronic petition, I would like feed back on this and peoples opinions would be very valuable in aiding me. It is still not very user friendly but at least fully functional and hopefully all the bugs will be sorted out. This is just a test run to get opinions/suggestions etc. hopefully once everything is ironed out we can start to publicise it.


The address is http://www.darkminds.net

DragonKin

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In need of FRIACO/Broadband?

NeilF

It all depends on how much you need it My only worry would be that, in a situation where we have both ADSL and FRIACO at reasonable prices, we all try to use FRIACO in situations where ADSL would be better simply because it's cheaper. I can see a lot of IT professionals[1] installing auto-redialers and activity-generators on their (FRIACO enabled) second phone line and using it as a leased line. If you need an always-on connection you should be able to get one for a reasonable monthly charge.

sending and receiving email all day has very little reliance on bandwidth

I was thinking more of the always-on aspect rather than the bandwidth. I would like ADSL because any email would arrive instantly, because you can check every two minutes, or even run your own server. With dialup, you spend a minute connecting, which has a minimum charge etc. Likewise for remote access. You can have SSH connections or "virtual desktop" software open all the time.

[1] Lest any IT professionals or residential users become alarmed by these terms remember that they are just generic terms used to describe a broad range of users. You may be an IT professional who doesn't use the Internet a lot or you may be a residential user who does use it a lot. In that case you are special and these descriptions don't apply to you

Xian

Originally posted by dahamsta
Why have I singled out Esat on this occasion? Well, with their LLU program, Esat have already proved themselves capable of creating and managing this process, even in light of that fact that pricing has still to be resolved. So why aren't they applying for FRIACO? They have a customer base ready to migrate, they have experience with the product, they have the organisation and the wedge to do it tomorrow. So why haven't they? I have no idea, and no-one I've talked to has either. But of course, Esat isn't the only OLO or ISP out there. Why hasn't anyone else applied?

All I would say to that, dahamsta, is that the time is right for Esat to offer a flat-rate service. The problem with NoLimits was that a small percentage were using the majority of the bandwidth. Now that they will soon have the option to increase the bandwidth available to them, it should be possible to run a manageable and profitable flat-rate service to the majority of internet users who do not have the same bandwidth requirements.

NeilF

Originally posted by dahamsta
Why have I singled out Esat on this occasion? Well, with their LLU program, Esat have already proved themselves capable of creating and managing this process, even in light of that fact that pricing has still to be resolved. So why aren't they applying for FRIACO? They have a customer base ready to migrate, they have experience with the product, they have the organisation and the wedge to do it tomorrow. So why haven't they? I have no idea, and no-one I've talked to has either. But of course, Esat isn't the only OLO or ISP out there. Why hasn't anyone else applied?

Could it be that whoever is first to offer it will face all the risk and legal hassles and so all the OLOs are saying, "you go first"?

dragonkin

Originally posted by NeilF


Could it be that whoever is first to offer it will face all the risk and legal hassles and so all the OLOs are saying, "you go first"?

They also normally get the biggest share of the market you don't win in business by letting everyone else get there first.

DK

murcielago

Them & Us

I had drafted a post on the above topic but Yoda's post and Dahamsta's response made mine redundant. I value however, the post on the IT professional view-point. We don't have enough information on the different categories (and needs) of IT suppliers and clients (users).

In my family we have two IT 'professionals' and one user (me). One qualified (post grad) and experienced IT professional is an employee with a firm in a world far removed from IrelandOffline. The other started as a marketing professional, became a user of IT and set up as a one person marketing firm that involved doing websites for small firms, and mainly through self-training in IT graduated to repairing, upgrading and installing hardware & software and doing training. While this person complains about the cost and unreliability of DU the main concern is about the needs of clients. The client potential could be increased several-fold with a friaco type environment.

As a user I am fortunate in that most of my business is with the Pacific Rim which means working unsocial hours. An off-peak service such as SNL would go a long way towards meeting my needs provided I didn't have to put up with a diabolical telco/ISP service. But then again I might be able to acquire and serve domestic clients given a different IT environment.

Returning to the professional's post it would be helpful to know if the firm is a one person operation or if it employs others. And why should all the work of an IT professional be done via the internet? Presumably, this does not apply to all IT professionals. A certain overlap is bound to arise involving persons who are primarily the owners/managers of professional IT firms and others for whom the internet is just one tool amongst many. There are students (including adult students) and hobby persons and others who use the internet for personal and family needs exclusively.

It is important to bear in mind that non-business users do not reclaim vat and pay their bills out of after tax income. It does make a huge difference to the 'price' borne by the private user. It is also worth noting that in the case of the person for whom the internet is incidental to the business the main IT cost comes out of private income and is not allowable for tax purposes. Yet this is where most people become introduced to IT possibilities.

dahamsta

Neil said: My only worry would be that, in a situation where we have both ADSL and FRIACO at reasonable prices, we all try to use FRIACO in situations where ADSL would be better simply because it's cheaper...

The figures don't back that up though Neil. The UK is right in the middle of all of this now, they have both flat-rate and broadband services available. Flat-rate (and general Internet) takeup has been enormous, with a huge majority of dialup users now using flat-rate services. These users /are/ switching to broadband, and sometimes that's not even a necessity, it's a luxury they're choosing to absorb. The enormous fight between the OLO's/ISP's, Oftel and BT to bring the price of broadband down demonstrates that the OLO's and ISP's are fully convinced that lower priced broadband will allow them to convert more users to broadband, but no-one will argue that flat-rate wasn't a necessary stepping stone. Because it was. Without flat-rate services, takeup of broadband wouldn't be anything like it is now.

On the other topic, you're probably both right. There is without doubt an enormous amount of investment and finagling involved in being the first to negotiate this kind of thing. LLU is a case in point - Esat have done all the groundwork here, and their contracts will be used as templates for future negotiations. However, you can come at that from the other angle too, as I've already mentioned - they've proved they can do it, and they have the financial wherewithall to do it. So why are they holding back? And why are AOL not jumping into the ring? AOL Europe is now a wholly owned subsidiary of AOL Time Warner, and has the might - and critically, the experience - to push this through faster than anyone else. What's holding them back? We have to figure that out.

adam

Fergus

Naturally, DSL, cable and whatever other purely packet-based networks, are the correct way to deploy Internet for everyone, but the point of FRIACO is it provides a short-term (up to next 5 years) means to get everyone online TODAY. A widespread residential DSL/cable rollout will take a few years anyway (esp. with the sorry state of affairs in Ireland), and it isn't gonna happen till the demand is in place - FRIACO can start building that widespread demand immediately.

As has been done in the UK, you can launch FRIACO and then quite comfortably build extra capacity into the network if and when required with joint investment between all the telecommunications operators involved. We are talking here about applications of ONE-OFF capital expenditure, which are fully paid for through the FRIACO rentals anyway.

As many FRIACO users migrate onwards to DSL/IP networks anyway, the capacity issues for the voice network are not ongoing. FRIACO also provides an immediate market from the existing users/infrastructure which provides a source of cash for ISPs and OLOs to embark on financing broadband rollouts. It is critical that ISPs/OLOs have access to a wholesale product with a fixed cost, otherwise the risks (e.g. SNL) will be too high and deter entry to the market.

NeilF

Originally posted by dahamsta
There is without doubt an enormous amount of investment and finagling involved in being the first to negotiate this kind of thing.

When the ODTR blocked I-Scream in September/October she said that Eircom-We-Sell-The-Phones had to allow three weeks after setting a pricing before Eircom-We-Sell-The-Internet could offer ADSL. If Esat went through all the hoops to get Eircom to offer FRIACO does that mean that they then must wait three weeks? And presumably in the intervening period several other OLOs who will have set up their FRIACO offerings so when FRIACO arrives, Esat have no first mover advantage?

If that is the case could the ODTR grant a limited exclusivity to any new product an OLO negotiates with Eircom? Say six months. Long enough to capitalise on the benefits associated with being the first mover, before opening it to other OLOs who would then provide the competition to keep/drive prices low.

dahamsta

When the ODTR blocked I-Scream in September/October she said that Eircom-We-Sell-The-Phones had to allow three weeks after setting a pricing before Eircom-We-Sell-The-Internet could offer ADSL.

I think it's six weeks Neil.

If Esat went through all the hoops to get Eircom to offer FRIACO does that mean that they then must wait three weeks? And presumably in the intervening period several other OLOs who will have set up their FRIACO offerings so when FRIACO arrives, Esat have no first mover advantage?

Actually, I honestly don't know. The lockdown period is obviously to tackle the genuine problem of the incumbent "getting the jump" on it's customer base. Whether it applies in the opposite direction, I don't know. I'll ask.

If that is the case could the ODTR grant a limited exclusivity to any new product an OLO negotiates with Eircom? Say six months. Long enough to capitalise on the benefits associated with being the first mover, before opening it to other OLOs who would then provide the competition to keep/drive prices low.

I presume that she could, but I very much doubt that she would. For a start, Eircom would shout the roof down, complaining about unfair processes. And they could be right - six months is an awful long time in these circumstances.

I'll get back to you on the the first question shortly.

adam

Manic

Most everyone in Ireland apart from a few people that have actually experienced Broadband here can only express their feelings on a 56k connection. There is NO Comparasion! Between both. I have seen and experienced Broadand in action and trust me even if it cost £100 a month i would still get it. One reason why, is that my phone bills would drop by almost £200 per month. To see a 15meg file being downloaded in seconds even monutes rather than hours is total Bliss! This sorth of internet connectivity should be available to EVERYONE! at a reasonable cost ( i consider £100 pm to be reasonable for my buisness) but many ordinary people might see that as a bit much. I fully understand this. The thing is though Broadband is available to many countries that i used to consider being behind even Ireland but they have it and even at a favourable cost EG. £45 pm so where does that leave us ? So the the simple trouth is. EVERYONE no matter who they are in Ireland should have it at an affordable cost to everyone. Why settle for anything else or less ?

The trouth is out there.... Find it!

Bard

Originally posted by Manic

The trouth is out there.... Find it!

Found it!

Fooger

Many here seem to be arguing about which product would be best suited to themselves or others, rather then which product is the most attainable and which will be easier to beat from eircom. At the moment broadband and DSL are being touted around the press as we speak (or type). Yes FRIACO will be more favourable to certain people and businesses but DSL is in the press and could be easier to implement. The only reason that eircom has put up such a fight over DSL and flat-rate access is because of the damage it would do to its leased line industry which counts for about 80% of its revenue, the residential market is just not worth the effort and will decimate their 64k lines. The eircom thinking is that they must protect their core business so we see the introduction of the caps on DSL that should see off the possibility of any serious company changing to DSL but caps appear to be impossible to implement.

Once the damage is done though there will be no going back for eircom so I predict that once adsl is released we will soon see a flat-rate dial-up option from eircom (though at some unbelievably high price) because it won’t make a difference anymore to their leased line industry and at the end of the day they are a company which wants to make a profit so I believe the best course of action for Ireland offline is to continue as normal.

o_donnel_abu

Originally posted by Xian
The problem with NoLimits was that a small percentage were using the majority of the bandwidth.

Absolutely not !

Esat have made it very clear to us that the problem had nothing to do with bandwidth or any other technical issues. It was a simple question of economics - Eircom were charging them (Esat) by the minute for line usage. Some of the heavy users were costing Esat in escess of IR£100 (1) when Esat were only getting the flat IR£20 income.

For obvious commercial reasons, Esat have never disclosed the financial figures to us but it is easy to do the calculation and see where they got the 75 hour rule.

Local calls are available off peak to telephone subscribers at 0.7p per minute. 75 hours x 60 mins x 0.7p = £31.50.

I don't know how much wholesale discount Esat get but I would guess that it's something like 25-30%. This would mean that Eircom are charging them something like £22-£24.

My gut feeling is that 75 hours is close to break-even for Esat and that they decided to accept break-even to hold subscribers but not to continue to take a loss on the product. Bear in mind that they did keep the service open to 18,000 subscribers. They are probably making some money on those users but this would be neglible to a company their size. (2)

IMO The problem with FRIACO has absolutely nothing to do with bandwidth or capacity or anything like that - it is simply down to Eircom not wanting to let go of a 'cash cow'.

This is to some extent understandable from Eircom's view as a commercial decision but I have argued with them, and will continue to argue as a business person, that it is a bad commercial decision - they are going for short-term gain rather than building their business for the long term.

Again IMO, broadband is the future cash cow for telcos - indeed, the only cash cow - once they get their business models right. Existing approaches to telphony will become obsolete in a very short time. By holding onto their existing model, by ignoring the fact that FRIACO is a stepping stone to creating a demand for broadband, they may be getting short term gain in parochial terms but they are dropping behind other telco's on the world stage, which is the real marketplace of the future; in particular they are leaving themselves wide open to other telco's such as UTVInternet, AOL and, indeed Esat, who are sitting on the sidelines right now but have actual experience and the systems in place to offer an unmetered service as soon as the barriers are removed, as they inevitably will.

Esat have made it clear to us that they believe in FRIACO and are desperately anxious to offer an unmetered product. I believe them because I can understand why they want to do it - they see it as a key factor in both growing the overall market and building their own share of it.

I just wish that Eircom would adopt the same progressive approach rather than adopting a protectionist approach that simply does not work in today's global market.


Martin Harran


Notes

(1) I trust that nobody minds me using IR£ instead of €, it's just that we are all familiar with the figures

(2) Before anyone accuses me of defending Esat, I have always made it clear that I understood the business logic behind their decision to drop heavy users; what I always condemned in the most vociferous terms was the way they went about it - blaming the users instead of the the real culprits, Eircom. They know my feelings on this only too well and don't even try to defend themselves any more

o_donnel_abu

Originally posted by Manic
Most everyone in Ireland apart from a few people that have actually experienced Broadband here can only express their feelings on a 56k connection. There is NO Comparasion! Between both. I have seen and experienced Broadand in action and trust me even if it cost £100 a month i would still get it.

This is a real problem for us, Manic, somthing we have to figure a way around. Politicians and the general public have no experience of what broadband really means and how important it is. Not too many years ago I myself was saying, "No I'll never bother about satellite TV...", "No, I'll never have a mobile phone..." , "No, I have no interest in the Internet...", (I was in good company in the latter, BTW, it's not that long ago that Bill Gates described the Internet as totally insignificant )

A few months ago, I spent an evening in the home of one of our members with a well known 'slightly older generation' politician. He had no real understanding of the internet except Email which was 'something his secretary used'

We took him online for a couple of hours, showing him what the internet is and how it can be used - things like our forum, search engines, how some local organisations had set up sites and newsgroups.

He was absolutely amazed and, for the first time, really understood the potential impact of the net.

If only we could have demonstrated Broadband to him

Martin

o_donnel_abu

Esat have already proved themselves capable ... So why aren't they applying for FRIACO? [/B]

Esat applied for FRIACO in May or June last year, but warned us that they expected it to take a long time to get agreement with Eircom. When we asked ODTR about them intervening to speed it up, they told us that they could not do so until the discussions reached an impasse or they were invited to intervene by one of the parties. If memory serves me right, this is what prompted an excellent quip from Fergus (?) at the seminar along the lines "now that the three of you are sitting at the same table..."

Not sure on up to date position on this, will ask about it when we meet them at start of Feb.

Martin