Metallica!

Anyone out there like Metallica?

I was watching their S & M concert and i thought the whole thing was fantastic! Their music is awesome, with pure emotion coming through the distortion, inspired lyrics and good performers...I love the song "Outlaw Torn", that has a cool build-up near the end, culminating in a mad guitar solo!

I hear they're recording a new album,hope they do well with it.

NeRb666

They're washed up sell outs. I hope they do the decent thing and call it a day before they destroy the little credibility they still have.

Tazz T

'Ride The Lightning' was one of the best metal albums of all time but that was over 15 years ago and everything they've done since has been progressively more targetted on commercial acceptability, success and profitability - just look at the Napster debacle - Metallica were instrumental in bringing that down.

'S&M' is OK - only because there are some old tunes on it from the time when Metallica still believed in the first five letters of their monicker.

They have some great songs past "Ride the Lightning", for example look at load, some great songs on that album...their albums show a great range of styles, they played metal then they began to develop songs outside of metal...songs with unique sounds.

I thought S&M was a great album, not just because it had old songs on it, but because the orchestra actually added something to the music...a well performed concert.

They're washed up sell outs. I hope they do the decent thing and call it a day before they destroy the little credibility they still have.

Where are you getting that from? They can still come out with some great songs, i'm sure the new album will do well.

NeRb666

The new westlife will sell well too.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by NeRb666
The new westlife will sell well too.

here we go again.
someone else who cant tell the difference between popular and sell out.
does a band have to sell less than 15 copies of an album to retain 'credability'?
personally i got the dvd of S&M 2 days ago and i think its awsome.
i think my favourite album is and justice for all or master of puppets, but happily i have matured as i have got older, as have metallica, and i like they way they have progressed over the years. i thought ride the lightening was brilliant when it came out (i have one of the copies with the infamous 'for whom the bells toll' error or in it) and ive liked all their releases. if they came out with a 'ride the lightening' type album now id say they were regressing and bands become stagnent if they do that. and they become boring. if they churned out the same songs all the time it would be crap. a good example is aerosmith. they were always alright by me. had a few catchy tunes, good riffs whatever. but they then dicscovered the ballad, and now every single release is a ballad because they sell and make money.
everyone said anthrax sold out when they released , er forgotten the album. the one with anti social on it. 4th album i think. rubbish, it just gained them a wider acceptance. but apparently you cant have that to be a good band these days. in fact the less people who know who youa re the better because aparently all the talent is in unknown bands these days.
no its not. its just assholes who go on about them.

and moonhawk, i completely agree with you, outlaw torn is fantastic. one of my favourites, but no leaf clover still blows me away.

WhiteWashMan

oh, as for the napster thing. if someone was draining my money away, you know what, id something about it too.
just because they have different views from you that have ultimately stopped you from getting hold of their songs for a a while, doesnt make them bad.
why dont you try actually going out and buying an album in futute instead of robbing it?

and one last thing. i believe the members of the band canplay whatever music they like. and im sure they, like me, couldnt give a damn about what you think of their music. first 5 letters of their monicker. get a grip. what do they play?

BlackMagic

metallica are great

need i say more;) :cool:

NeRb666

This may come as a shock, but if you read my two posts here, I never mentioned their music once. IMO they sold out by going flat-out commercial, the marketing strategy is dictating their direction nowadays. I know they are only human, and there's a time limit on how long they can make aggressive music, people change, it's a fact of life. BTW, how much did you pay for the S & M DVD? That's really my point. How many more super-duper live extravaganzas are they gonna release? Obviously it's up to the people to decide if they want to buy them or not, but it's pretty obvious that they are cashing in here.

Lemming

Originally posted by NeRb666
BTW, how much did you pay for the S & M DVD? That's really my point.

Bands don't set CD/DVD/VHS prices. So what IS your point?

How many more super-duper live extravaganzas are they gonna release?

How many metal bands have done what metallica did with an orchestra? Name me 5 others.

And on the technical aspect of their "extravaganza", I was in an orchestra for MANYYYY years. Do you have ANY idea of how technically difficult what they did actually is? That is talent my boy. The real McCoy.

Obviously it's up to the people to decide if they want to buy them or not, but it's pretty obvious that they are cashing in here.

And every time that some band sticks skulls and pentagrams on their album cover cause it'll sell more, you don't think that's selling out??

Metallica created one of THE most inspired and original album covers ever. When everyone else was sticking all this grotesque artwork and stuffon their albums because it was the accepted norm, they said "why" and came up with an album cover that was just black. Had they gone with the norm they would have been selling out to commercialism

cournioni

I'm not gonna get involved in this arguement...

And again. I never mentioned popular or sell out in that thread WWM. Get yer facts straight.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
I'm not gonna get involved in this arguement...

And again. I never mentioned popular or sell out in that thread WWM. Get yer facts straight.

who said i was quoting you paranoid boy?

get yer own facts straight. youre not interesting enough for me to use as an example......

and nerb, whats the problem with me buying stuff?
are you actuaklly saying to me that its wrong for me to go out and buy a metallica dvd? cashing in or not, they are providing a service in their dvds, and i can afford to buy them, and i want to buy them, so why cant i buy them. you call it cashing in. i call it plain simple commerce. you provide a service, i pay you for it. what problem do you have with that?
maybe you should practise what you preach and go into work and tell them you are willing to work for free as you dont belive in a capitalist system. lets see how fast you change your mind.

selling out. give me a break. if you dont like it, dont buy it, but dont give me half-assed preachy crap you cant back up. youre as bad as the muppet quoted above in that case. either that or your a 16 year old adolecent who cannot get their mind around the fact that not everyone likes the type of music you listen to and refuses to take anyones point of view into consideration. no pornapster, im talking about you. lets not make that mistake eh?

but id say its alright to go out and buy a dvd of a concert of some unknown underground band that you like?
the attitude that comes across is so often one of 'oh i liked ride the lightening, but everything after puppets wasnt heavy enough, they must have sold out'

by the way, will you explain to me how exactly you go flat out commercial? is it by majking your music more popular so people will buy it?
or by erm, i dont know, how does one make a band and its pretty distinctive style more marketable? hmmm?

sounds to me like another teen-agnst ridden youyth raging against the machine of popularity.

i bet if we met youd look like kevin from the harry enfield show. i expect pornapster would look like perry......



OHHHHH, YOU CANT KNOW ABOUT OASIS, YOURE TOO OLD AND CRUMBLY. DONT YOU EVER SAY YOU KNOW WHO OASIS ARE AGAIN

coz like, we arent hip enough to see the cool and fab styles of taoday are we?

personally i got the dvd of S&M 2 days ago and i think its awsome.

It truly is,WhiteWashMan, just because that the concert itself was different from other such concerts,as Lemming said,

How many metal bands have done what metallica did with an orchestra? Name me 5 others.

Look at other "nu-metal" bands today, with decks providing most of the sounds and the guitarist just hitting the thing (probably not even striking the strings!)...it's not the same.

Alright, some of those bands have been successful and they have some good songs, but look at Metallica...they've been around for years and they write their own songs, they play their own songs, they only use instruments that they can play (ie. guitars, pedals,etc) on stage...they are talented, no matter what way you want to look at them...and surely,had they gone commercial, we would have seen them on "Top of the Pops" or something recently.
They're sticking to what they like and that's the way bands should be.

WhiteWashMan, no leaf clover is a good song, like the way the orchestra mixes perfectly with it, also love "master of puppets", think the quiet bit in the middle and then the heavy drumming kicking in is fantastic!
I always think of the music and I think they produce good music, even if you're not really into heavy metal, some songs are acceptable to everyone.

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

by the way, will you explain to me how exactly you go flat out commercial? is it by majking your music more popular so people will buy it?
or by erm, i dont know, how does one make a band and its pretty distinctive style more marketable? hmmm?

sounds to me like another teen-agnst ridden youyth raging against the machine of popularity.

i bet if we met youd look like kevin from the harry enfield show. i expect pornapster would look like perry......

Admitedly, from a breif meeting with Pornapster, he is rather like Kevin. I'm sure he'll give me a smack for saying so if we meet again.

Nerb, on the other hand does know what he is talking about.
And is definetly not the "Kevin" alike...

I do agree with him, to a degree.
But he is going a bit overboard, I think.

Sure, Metallica sold out.
But S&M was fantastic, it was at one time all that spun in my CD player. I really loved it, and still do listen to it the odd time.

And I was actualy contemplating getting the DVD today, but I think I'll wait for the Dimmu Borgir DVD to come out.

Anyway... Back to the selling out rubbish.
There is no question that Metallica sold out a long time ago.
From the point of view of a guitarist, going from such complexeties of Master Of Puppets/And Justice For All to the simple as **** Enter Sandman was rather blatant.
As was working with Bob Rock.

But I'm not going to say anything bad about the album.
10 years ago, that was what got me into Metal.

I'll just say this:
On their next album, Metallica are working with a rapper. (Whos name eludes me.)
If you think that this isn't quite BLATANTLY attempting to fit in with the current Rap/Rock trend, you're fooling yourself.
And if you honestly think Metallica have "Matured" when they've realesed something like "I Disapear" then you're fooling yourself.

There's plenty of ways Metallica can make money musically without resorting to such text-book money making scemes. So the "If you were in their shoes, you'd expect to get paid" arguement doesn't even come into it. So give it a rest, huh?

But with that said, I still like Metallica.
I will happily stick one of their CDs (yes, even load) and enjoy it.
And I would quite happily see them in concert again, as I truly enjoyed it before.
Although I would dread to think that they might bring someone like Papa Roach as support.

But Metallica are still, to a degree, a really great band.
And they have proved that they could still write some good songs, after the **** of an album that was Reload.
No Leaf Clover is a great song.
Not classic, mind you, but brilliant in it's own right.

So may we perhaps let the arguement go?

How many metal bands have done what metallica did with an orchestra? Name me 5 others.

Well, there's Deep Purple, if you count them.
Dimmu Borgir's last album was recorded with an Orchestra. Different to Metallica, because the songs were writen specifically with an orchestra in mind.
Therion also do all their shows, and albums with an Orchestra.
Diabolical Masquerade mainman Blakkheim conducted his own one on Death's Design. As well as playing all the guitars, bass, keyboards and vocals. Impressive.

And, a bit different, but Tristania use a Chior.
Which sounds quite astounding, and very original.

On their next album, Metallica are working with a rapper.

Fair enough AngelWhore, you may see this as a way of cashing in but maybe they're just trying something new?

Granted, "I Disappear" wasn't their best song but not every song can be good, and when bands try out something new (different type of song for example) , it's hit-or-miss and sometimes it doesn't work out.

I agree with you though, they are a great band.

cournioni

Originally posted by AngelWhore
Admitedly, from a breif meeting with Pornapster, he is rather like Kevin. I'm sure he'll give me a smack for saying so if we meet again.

Uh... who? I'm confuddled.

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by MoonHawk
Fair enough AngelWhore, you may see this as a way of cashing in but maybe they're just trying something new?

Granted, "I Disappear" wasn't their best song but not every song can be good, and when bands try out something new (different type of song for example) , it's hit-or-miss and sometimes it doesn't work out.

I agree with you though, they are a great band.

You know, I was all set to get the S&M DVD Today.

Until I saw the ****ing price tag!

Over 50 fecking euro!?
I'm sorry, but that's really just pulling the piss.

And please, don't give me the "It's got 2 discs" rubbish.
I could have bought the Family Guy DVD set for FAR less, and that had 3 discs, I think.

I got Memento instead. 24 euro.

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER

Uh... who? I'm confuddled.

Yeah, lets leave it that way, shall we?

Yeah the price tag is a bit steep, i got it as a present.

Yeah, lets leave it that way, shall we?

Agreed!

WhiteWashMan

buy it over the internet.
or do as i did, and get it for your birthday as a present

as for the rapper bit, if they were the first of the new wave of music to do it, it would be heralded as something new and exciting.
but since its been done before ots obviously selling out.

you people have far too much time on your hands.
let them do their thing and if you dont like it, dont buy it.

but there are some people who will still say its rubbish even if its a masterpiece, purely becuase they have said it should be so. and they dont like to admit that sometimes, somethings sound stupid, but actually are pretty cool. like banana ice cream, strawberry milshakes, and britany spears and five (i have all their albums i must admit. oh the shame )

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
buy it over the internet.
or do as i did, and get it for your birthday as a present

Well then, you know what to get me now, don't you?

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

as for the rapper bit, if they were the first of the new wave of music to do it, it would be heralded as something new and exciting.
but since its been done before ots obviously selling out.

Oh please, that's a joke of a response. What was that I was saying? Fooling yourself?
We're not talking about doing something that's been done before.
Or at least, I'm not.

It's that they are obviously only doing it to fit in with the rap/rock trend.
Please, give an opinion on how they're 'Maturing' or 'Doing something new with their music' why don't you?

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

you people have far too much time on your hands.
let them do their thing and if you dont like it, dont buy it.

Irrelivant!
This is a board for disscussion about music!
Don't bother putting your opinion into the fray if you're going to moan when people dissagree!

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

but there are some people who will still say its rubbish even if its a masterpiece, purely becuase they have said it should be so. and they dont like to admit that sometimes, somethings sound stupid, but actually are pretty cool. like banana ice cream, strawberry milshakes, and britany spears and five (i have all their albums i must admit. oh the shame )

Oh, how easily that can be turned upon yourself.
I mean, there are some people who will still say it's a masterpeice even if it's rubbish, purely because they have said it should be so. And they don't like to admit that sometimes.

I'm not going to preach to you that Metallica are crap, because we all damn well know that they are not. Like I said before, I'd happily stick one of their CD's on, or go to one of their concerts if they came back here again.

This was a topic about Metallica, and we're having a great discussion about it!
I'm just lumping my view in about it.
Have they sold out? Yes, not a doubt in my mind about it!
Are they a crap band? No, not at all.

Look at it like this...
I'm sitting here listening to The Kovenant.
Now they have blatantly sold out. They went and done something like Marylin Manson because that's what's popular.
Is this a bad thing?
HELL NO!
They fecking beat Manson at his own game!
So what does it matter that they sold out then?

WhiteWashMan

ahh, AW i think youve got the wrong end of my stick

my point about metallica and rapping had nothing to do with 'selling out'. my point was that if they did it first, people would say it was a masterstroke, but since its been done before, then people will say they are seeling out and trying to be popular. i just say its metallica with a rapper. simple as that.
if metallica want to use a rapper then why not? i can never see metallica using a rapper to blend in. seriously, you actually think that with the popularity of a band that big that they need to try and 'follow' music trends. hell, they set the pace for so many bands fo ryears, and i still think they are setting the pace.

as for selling out, im still waiting for someone to give me a good definition on that one.
im not saying that making your music popular is bad thing. but people often dont like it because they like their music to be special to themselves. if goes out to the masses, people begin to think the music becomes diluted and therefore not as special to them.
its like the old harry potter v lotr argument. so many people wanted to see harry potter flop becuase they were mad lotr fans. its just the way some peoples minds work.

i do not think metallica have sold out. but if you do then fine, i still ilke their music regardless and i still think they have more originality than any other band out there. and if being original is bad, if making music popular is a sin, if playing really ass-kickin tunes is a crime, then mr. you better put me down for 10 in maximum security

i dont know when youre birthday is.
if you are nice, i may burn you an evalutaion copy so you can see if you want to buy it ir not

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
ahh, AW i think youve got the wrong end of my stick

Sh!te! If I knew you were armed with a stick I wouldn't have argued!

*Picks up Whisky bottle...

Right...
LETS ROCK!

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

my point about metallica and rapping had nothing to do with 'selling out'. my point was that if they did it first, people would say it was a masterstroke, but since its been done before, then people will say they are seeling out and trying to be popular. i just say its metallica with a rapper. simple as that.
if metallica want to use a rapper then why not? i can never see metallica using a rapper to blend in. seriously, you actually think that with the popularity of a band that big that they need to try and 'follow' music trends. hell, they set the pace for so many bands fo ryears, and i still think they are setting the pace.

Would the same arguement stand if they hired a DJ?
Or if they got themselves some masks?
Or a few dancers?

Can you see where I'm going with this?
Because you really gotta ask yourself, what else would they be doing it for?

Working with Micheal Kamen was a masterstroke, regaurdless of the fact that Deep Purple done it before they did.
Regaurdless of the fact that Therion has been doing it for the past 10 years or so...

Understand that it really isn't anything to do with doing something new.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
as for selling out, im still waiting for someone to give me a good definition on that one.
im not saying that making your music popular is bad thing. but people often dont like it because they like their music to be special to themselves. if goes out to the masses, people begin to think the music becomes diluted and therefore not as special to them.
its like the old harry potter v lotr argument. so many people wanted to see harry potter flop becuase they were mad lotr fans. its just the way some peoples minds work.

People have given good definitions already.
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it false.

Music is always opinion, never fact.
So you will never get the definite answer you're after.
There's no written rule saying that if you've sold so many albums, that you're a sellout. Or that if your last album was different to the one before that...

If you don't beleive Metallica have sold out, then they haven't.
If you don't beleive compromising your music because of what's popular is selling out, then it's not.

It's all up to what each and every person thinks.
Each person has their own idea as to what selling out is.
And each person has their own breaking point as to how much a band can do before they give up on them.
I was a huge Metallica fan.
I lapped up Load when I got it.
And I liked ReLoad aswell.
Garage Inc was a brilliant idea.
S&M, as you would put it, was a masterstroke.
Even with the whole Napster thing going on, I still thought they hadn't sold out.

Now however, I do think they've sold out.
And looking back over the years, yes, I think they had sold out at a far earlier time than I let myself beleive.
It goes to show, that if you're a fan of a band, you're less likely to say "Sellout" than someone who's not.

So please, don't ask for a definition on what "Selling Out" means, as one doesn't exist for me, that will exist for you.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
i do not think metallica have sold out. but if you do then fine, i still ilke their music regardless and i still think they have more originality than any other band out there. and if being original is bad, if making music popular is a sin, if playing really ass-kickin tunes is a crime, then mr. you better put me down for 10 in maximum security

Like I said before, I will still be listening to their older music regaurdless of what they do in the future. Nothing they do is going to earase what they've already done.

Selling out doesn't mean that all the music instantly becomes crap. You should realise that, and you should realise that when people say that a band has sold out, that they aren't calling them **** outright.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
i dont know when youre birthday is.
if you are nice, i may burn you an evalutaion copy so you can see if you want to buy it ir not

Ah thanks.
I'm not sure if I would get it, but I have grown quite fond of live shows on DVD as of late. So who knows? But the Dimmu Borgir DVD will be the one I'm most looking out for, when it's released.

WhiteWashMan

i will agree with all your points except the ones about dancers and masks.
they dont ad anything to the musical content.
a dj will however, so it may be taken into consideration.

i know the whole orchestra thing has been done before, just not to such a grand scale. i guess with the saving they made from closing down napster they could afford it