Racism is not the problem

bonkey

Originally posted by seamus
I understand where you're coming from, and yes, from a legal standpoint they are given a fair chance after the first time they are released from prison.

Our criminal system is based more about punishment than rehabilitation. Its basic aim is to convince people that crime is not worthwhile, because of the fear of punishment. This approach has, historically, never worked.

Add to that the fact that so many prison sentences are drastically reduced due to overcrowding, and you have a punishment system which, for the vast majority of petty crime, isnt even a serious punishment.

Until people realise that for large numbers of offenders, punishment is not a deterrant, then our penal system can never defeat crime.

jc

Biffa Bacon

But for the reasons I gave above, they don't take it. In prison, all they gain is more hatred for the 'system' and more skills to break its rules.

I agree that the current prison system is not effective in preventing crime. But surely the answer is to reform the prison system rather than abandoning the notion of punishment altogether. I would argue that prisoners should be prevented from fraternising with each other, which would prevent the "school for crime" nature of prisons today.

Prison doesn't educate repeat offenders as to the benefits of a 'normal' life.

I'm all for giving prisoners an education, but they would still have to be punished for their crimes.

I would appreciate it if people stopped using the term knacker in this discussion.

There is no word in the English language that more perfectly sums up their nature, but OK.

Add to that the fact that so many prison sentences are drastically reduced due to overcrowding, and you have a punishment system which, for the vast majority of petty crime, isnt even a serious punishment.

Until people realise that for large numbers of offenders, punishment is not a deterrant, then our penal system can never defeat crime.

You've made a big leap here bonkey, from arguing that the prison system is not an appropriate means of punishing criminals, to concluding that punishment itself is not appropriate. I agree that the current prison system is not effective, but I believe it should be reformed rather than done away with.

I will make four suggestions:
1. Particularly violent criminals (e.g. rapists, murderers) should never be released from prison.
2. Criminals should not be allowed fraternise with each other in prison.
3. Lesser violent criminals (e.g. vandals, petty thieves) should be forced into punitive labour programs (e.g. cleaning the streets).
4. Those guilty of non-violent offences (e.g. white collar crime, drug dealing) should be given massive fines (proportional to income) instead of imprisoned.

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

You've made a big leap here bonkey, from arguing that the prison system is not an appropriate means of punishing criminals, to concluding that punishment itself is not appropriate.

I distinguish between steps designed to punish, and steps designed to prevent reoffence, which I would term rehabilitation (except in the lifers/deaders cases where you remove the person from society permanently)

Punishment does not prevent reoffence. Period. There is no reliable model anywhere which shows otherwise.

I am not saying that punishment has no place. I am saying tha tpunishment without rehabilitation has never worked, does not work, and will not work for the forseeable future.

Yet, it is the basic underlying tenent how our system functions.

Sure, civil labour may be seen as some form of rehabilitation, but its not really. Its a more useful form of punishment. I dont know how to attempt rehab, I just know that we must make the attempt, because simply locking poeple up for a period of time will never prevent reoffence in any significant manner.

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Add to that the fact that so many prison sentences are drastically reduced due to overcrowding, and you have a punishment system which, for the vast majority of petty crime, isnt even a serious punishment.

The reform of bail, the expansion of the courts system (Dublin alone now has at least 11 court buildings) and in particular the placing of remand courts in prisons, the extra spaces in the prison system at Castlerea, Midlands (Port Laoise 2) and Cloverhill (now the biggest in the service), mean that while there is still probably some over-crowding and prisoners do get remission, there is no more 'revolving door',

The Irish Prison Service website http://www.irishprisons.ie is currently not working

The Irish Courts Service http://www.courts.ie/

swiss

As bonkey points out, the current penal system fails insofar as it largely punishes felons but fails to rehabilitate them. In some cases, however, the 'scare' factor or fear of spending more time in prison is enough in itself to reform offenders. Clearly, however, given the current state of the prison system these - so called successes - are in a minority.

It is hard to balance an effective model that would provide enough of a deterrent to make all but the most hardened of criminals to think twice before committing offences, and satisfy our own sense of social justice. I believe that in theory our system of punishment can work well, but has been hamstrung for decades by a creaking prison system that necessitates a revolving door system. Compound this with (as Biffa Bacon mentioned) a "school for crime" ethos that has developed over the last few decades, we suddenly have a singularly unsuccessful method of 'rehabilitating' prisoners, as the 'punishment' of incarceration - which is intended to teach prisoners the consequences of their actions, instead teaches them new means to commit those crimes.

I think that a tougher, more rigorous approach needs to be taken in relation to the punishments made available to the courts. Penal labor - if practicable (if proper supervision could be guaranteed) - would be an effective means of punishment IMO. It would teach offenders that their anti-social behaviour is consequenced by more than a simple prison stint, as well as benefit society at large by their physical labour. This may not reside well with what others term 'bleeding heart social liberals' but I believe that a 'tough love' approach will benefit offenders more in the long term - when all other means of social benefit has failed to curb their anti-social behaviour.

The underlying social causes of this behaviour can then be addressed. Putting relief services in place becomes a less dangerous or laborious (or indeed futile) chore when the anti - social element that continually refuses to give these support mechanisms a chance are in the process of being punished for their violent actions.

Victor

Originally posted by swiss
Penal labor - if practicable (if proper supervision could be guaranteed) - would be an effective means of punishment IMO.

Nice in theory. However, there are concerns in the USA that prison-based companies just exploit this labour for excessive profit (or rather the system, to a degree the prisoners deserve a bit of exploitation).

Supervision outside prison can be expensive.

However, there are positive aspects. Apparently prisoners are tripping over each other to work in the kitchens in Mountjoy (mostly for the training, but it also creates a more positive daily regime and presumably it provides some benefits).

Breaking rocks and making post bags are hardly very constructive.

swiss

Originally posted by Victor:
Breaking rocks and making post bags are hardly very constructive

No, of course not. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, but the purpose of the labour intended to reform prisoners should (in theory) be constructive and rehabilitative - rather than oppressive and backbreaking. I would not like to envisage a prison system like that portrayed in Papillion (an excellent film w/ Dustin Hoffman and Steve McQueen). Labour that has both purpose and merit would be ideal, such as apprenticeship programmes for electricians/plumbers etc. At least inmates that participate in such a regime have a hope of having a life other than that of crime or poverty once they are readmitted to society.

As far as I can tell, in any justice system, the emphasis should not just be on the punishment of prisoners, but also on how they can be successfully rehabilitated. After all, unless a person is a 'lifer' and can look forward to spending the rest of their lives in prison each convict will re-enter society at some stage in their lives. It is therefore both advantageous to society and humane to the person in question to allow them the best opportunity to get their lives back on track during their incarceration - even if this means taking the aforementioned 'tough love' approach that many social liberals might object to.

The Gopher

My local town council,which from its nonsensical declarations is the laugh of the county,is seemingly very concerned about the refugee"problem".They claim they are perpetuating a crime wave,and one said that part of our town which must only be a square mile in all should be renamed Bucharest Heights.Lets just do a breakdown of figures of foreigners in the area.
Romanians-An old Romanian woman of about 60 who sells the big issue at the shops on a Saturday and another family[to be fare to the council the family probably burgled a relative of mine but sure theres an equal chance of a local burgling houses.
Chinese-One family,propeitors of a takeaway.
Italy-2 families in the food business.
Blacks-One family.
German-Perhaps 2 dozen in the country outside the town.
And a handful of French and English.Hardly Brixton,as the local council dubbed the area is it????Theres only about 1500 ppl inb the town for christs sake!And the foreigners must number 30 or 40 altogether.:rolleyes:

seamus

Originally posted by The Gopher

Blacks-One family.

Um, lol, what, are all people of african descent just to be thrown under one banner, lol? Maybe for the last few you could have just said 'A few Europeans' :)

The Gopher

Alright-if we want to be pedantic they could be Nigerian,Ghanian,Ivorian,Liberian,Senegalese,Gambian,Somali,Ethiopian,Malian,Guinean,Sudanese,South African,Namibian,Jamaican,Mixed,Congolese,Rwandan,Burundian,Tanzanian,Chadian,Gabonese,Zimbabwean,Zambian,Togolese,Beninese,Central African etc etc etcSatisfied????????

Sand

owned:)