WWII bombings

Asuka · 21-02-2002 5:15pm

Patriotism is probably one of the most stupid feelings of the many many stupid feelings that humans tend to have.

A

Crash · 21-02-2002 5:20pm

Like guilt?

Elvish · 21-02-2002 10:04pm

I have this to say about this. Patriotism is not a useless emotion. I can safely say that every single one of you has felt a bit of pride when the Irish Tri-Colour is flying over Dublin Castle, or when at a rugby, soccer or gaelic ( i think ) match the National Anthem is played. If not, I find it a horrible thing to think about, i don't want my children growing up not knowing of the past of Ireland and not having a bit of Pride when the tri-colour is flown. What ticks me off the most is that for one the skeptics are right about young people: They're becoming more and more obsessed with themselves. Don't get me wrong, I found the Omagh Bombing, the bombings at the BBC in London (I think it was the BBC) were incredible atrocities. The English are not completely to blame for the troubles, The Real IRA show that.

do you know how many people patriotism and national pride have killed. If everyone in the north woke up tomorrow with no idea which side they were on the problem would be over

If if and buts were candy and nuts..........then we'd be happy, i agree. but they're not. And about National Pride killing people, true, people have died from going out to 'end the troubles'. If the people like Micheal Collins, DeValera, Harry Boland and the people of bloody sunday had not gone out and shown the world what NAtional Pride could do, there would be no Irish Free State, no Ireland as we know it today. So if the people of today think Patriotism is a bad thing then every thing that Dev, Harry and Collins fought for were bad also. I do not agree with the IRA killing people under the guise of Patriotism, that isn't Patriotism, thats just insanity. If Patriotism is an excuse then it is only an excuse to feel happy for what your country stands for. That is my opinion, I know I will be flamed for being a "Cold-hearted bas**rd.".

-Rob

P.S I know this is very very long.

Lemming · 21-02-2002 10:50pm

To quote Sean Connery (in "The Rock") who was in fact quoting Oscar Wilde at the time:

"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"

And he had a point.

I'm not against patriotism, but I do think it needs to be mixed with a healthy dose of reality and awareness.

lordsippa · 21-02-2002 11:22pm

I don't mind patriotism in others, just as I don't mind when people spill milk in their own house, or when people who i don't know embarrass themselves.

I am not a patriot. I don't believe that having an allegience to anything is a particularly good idea. It's a selfish attitude but i've learned that nothing is worth any form of loyalty (with the possible exception of someone i probably haven't met). The world is a very nasty and brutish place and i don't really care what people do to themselves so long as they leave me alone. It's the same with patriotism - i don't care who rules what so long as they don't **** around with me.

And on that note: The only reason i acted so hostily to rob was cause he tried to subject me to his views - "have some patriotism lad" or some such bs.

And just cause i am not a patriot doesn't mean i hate ireland. i do love this land, but i'm not willing to go to any length for it.

smiles · 22-02-2002 12:02am

Patriotism is an excuse that vicious stupid people use to start wars.

Some may be necessary, but others are pointless.

If people in the north woke up and didnt know what side they were on they would still have a problem. All it takes is a single excuse.

<< Fio >>

Asuka · 22-02-2002 5:32pm

Why should i be proud of something which for all intents and purposes has nothing to do with me? Why should i feel a pang if i see a sign which i didnt design/fight for etc.? Why should i be proud of 15 men playing a game on a pitch, which i have nothing to do with? If i have any interest at all in such things, i wouldnt call it passion or even hope - maybe just vague preference. Its all pointless and stupid. When it comes down to it, all places are the same.

A

sisob · 22-02-2002 7:45pm

Originally posted by Elvish
I can safely say that every single one of you has felt a bit of pride when the Irish Tri-Colour is flying over Dublin Castle, or when at a rugby, soccer or gaelic ( i think ) match the National Anthem is played.

it makes me sick when i see the flag - but i can think of nothing but the death and suffering caused by "flags" and nationality

Elvish · 22-02-2002 10:52pm

ehhhh. i see my views are not being accepted here, so much for free speech........... what i have stated was my opinion, i was not forcing anybody to agree to it. On the note of saying "have a bit of Patriotism lad!" I was not forcing Lordsippa to agree it was merely a culchie thing which many of you wouldn't understand, us culchies have a different tounge to you city folk. What may sound forceful or rude would be accepted as the norm here in kildare. I know i'm not going to get anywhere in this discussion. So unless i deem it appropriate I shall contribute nothing more to this thread. And don't see this as me going off and having a sulk, I am leaving this discussion because i wish to, nothing more, nothing less.

-Rob

lordsippa · 22-02-2002 11:13pm

it wasn't so much a directly aimed shot at you but more a rant against patriotism and violence and general stuff like that. i wasn't the best either so i may have been kinda harsh. apologies.

and so what if your views aren't respected? you're the first person i have ever seen even notice mine, but i still bitch!

so don't give up ya big eejit! (meant in the nice and not hideously offensive way)...

and final (and i KNOW this will get me in ****)... ya load o' culchie bastards! ha! boggers the lot o' ya!

hahahahaha!

Elvish · 22-02-2002 11:29pm

ya load o' culchie bastards! ha! boggers the lot o' ya!

Damn Right! I'm proud to be a culchie bastard!

I apoligize for my last post, i was in a bad mood after hearing i'm after pulling a leg muscle so i could be out of rugby training for a long while if i'm not carefull. Apoligies

-Rob

Celt · 25-02-2002 7:58pm

I was sure Dulce et Decorum Est was by Siegfried Sassoon ( a WW1 soldier who's son died in ww2 iirc)

My motto is "Oderint Dum Metuant" when it comes to war.

sisob · 25-02-2002 8:17pm

Originally posted by Celt
I was sure Dulce et Decorum Est was by Siegfried Sassoon

t'was indeed

Crash · 26-02-2002 6:22pm

I thought the Base Details was by Sassoon, and Dulce Et Decorum Est was by his friend.

Cait · 26-02-2002 11:52pm

i think dulce et decorum est is by wilfred owen

Celt · 26-02-2002 11:58pm

Originally posted by foobar
I thought the Base Details was by Sassoon, and Dulce Et Decorum Est was by his friend.

yup, always get them 2 mixed up because we learnt them one after the other in school (Base Details being the superior imho)

Crash · 27-02-2002 5:05pm

Personally i prefer Dulce Et Decorum Est, as it is less of a slag at the generals and more about the hardships of war.

Cait · 27-02-2002 10:33pm

yeah, i prefer dulce et decorum est

n.catenthusiast · 02-03-2002 12:03am

i think patriotism is a good and healthy thing, but has become tainted by what some people have done in it's name.
I used to frown on nationalism, and that sort of thing, but at the same time, I couldn't help feeling proud whenever Ireland was represented abroad etc.

the way I figure it, if you see your country as a community of people helping each other(i.e. taxation and voting etc.) then we have every right to be proud of what we, as a people, have achieved.
At the same time, theres no point in being proud to be Irish, just because we are suposed 'great craic and heavy drinkers, and good honest-to-God Roman Catholics'
One thing I've noticed is that people living in a country thats not there own tend to be more patriotic than those living at home.

some guy once said something, and I've forgotten the exact words, but it goes something like this: "A healthy nation should be unconscious of it's nationhood as... something else( i forget)"

Typedef · 02-03-2002 1:41am

Yes I agree that nationality, patriotism call it what you will is simply an idea imposed onto your superego and if you were to think of it exclusively in terms of such an imposition would be a thing to reject.

However the reality of the world is that no matter how illogical nationalism would seem and how it would seem to be something to be rejected as being an ill-thought out concept, there are millions, billions probably, of people who are extremely nationalistic and moreover will act on it in a pro-active way, because of their nationality and patriotism, sometimes to your detrement and therefore your nationality is yours wether you like it or not.
Thus simply ignoring your 'interests' in the place/state/country you live in is counter-productive to your own struggle to make a life for yourself.

Example, it becomes very easy to shun nationalism when you live in a nice secure state like Ireland, but drop yourself back 150 years ago and you would most likely find yourself in the midst of the famine, then you might find that notions of nationalism may be notions you can leave behind, but others can't and others will discriminate with you and against you for your nationality thus capitalise on it when it's available.

In essence nationalism is darwinism, sort of.

WWII bombings

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