ADSL What price would you pay?

Coyote

I will pay up to €300 a month if they would just sell the dam thing
wiht no cap and Dustaz i hope to god your jokeing about 10gb that is nothing you can do 3gb on a 56K modem for less that the cost of getting the ADSL that eircom are selling it at. so it works out cheeper to use 56k that to get ADSL if your going to stay inside the 3gb limit

Matfinn

I just want to say this. I think people that say they would pay &euro55 and over are forgetting themselves. This price afformentioned is not affordable, and one of the goals of IrelandOffline is to get '*affordable*' and fair broadband flatrate interent access. I personally would not pay anything over &euro55 for broadband internet ( no caps ), or &euro30 Flatrate

Thanks

ando

I think people saying they want Uncapped 512/128 kbps connection for €40 a month are just being unreasonable. You are talking €uro's ??? Thats like what.. 30 punts .... no way are eircom going to be that stupid
I think the best we could ask for is €85 with a 10GB cap. I might be going against the main taughts here, but I agree with the cap, 10GB is about right for €85 a month, but I would expect prices to fall after a year or so. but bloody hell, we're talking about a company that gives the same kind of service (leased line to internet) and they charge thousands for the same kind of bandwidth

pete

Now here's what I don't get - bandwidth does cost money, doesn't it? It's not like it's some unlimited resource, so why shouldn't we have to pay for it?

I'd be interested to hear on what basis people think they should be able to pay a fixed rate for an uncapped service - I suppose the question I'm asking is: Why do people think they're entitled to something for nothing?

I know of one person on the latest DSL trials who (allegedly) went through a several gigs of downloads in the 48 hours after he got connected. On top of (allegedly) maybe half a dozen DivX movies, he's (allegedly) downloaded 3.25gb of mp3's alone - his target is (allegedly) another 1,000 mp3's by the end of the week in case the trial ends when it's supposed to.

Realistically, is it financially viable to offer this level of service across the board for €40/€50/€60 a month?


(I'm not trying to defend eircom's prices here. And yes, I know they're offering uncapped for their most expensive DSL offering.)

Bard

Going to keep this short...

Although I've never experienced ADSL, I'm going to agree fully with Dustaz.

Praetorian

I'm currently paying €100 per month for ISDN (which I consider low because I used to be on alot more)

I would continue to pay €100 per month for NO CAP 512/128k

I would only pay €55-60 ex vat if it had a 3Gig cap

SkepticOne

Originally posted by pete
I'd be interested to hear on what basis people think they should be able to pay a fixed rate for an uncapped service - I suppose the question I'm asking is: Why do people think they're entitled to something for nothing?

I'm not, in principle, against caps. As you say, bandwidth costs money and an uncapped service will use more bandwidth than a capped one. However, surveying broadband offerings worldwide, most seem to be uncapped. This is particularly the case in the US where there is extensive competition competition between cable and phone companies. It looks like capping is something that companies are prepared to drop in order to gain customers in a competitive environment. They seem willing to bear the extra cost for that reason.

I'm not looking for an uncapped service "for nothing", though. I would be prepared to pay a bit more for the certainty of a fixed cost per month. But since a lot of the cost of broadband is related to the initial capital outlay and various fixed costs on the part of the company, I would not expect the uncapped service to be too much more than a capped service.

All the above applies to a competitive market. Not Ireland.

spongebob

I have told the local chamber of commerce about the caps and they are freaked out at the prospect of having NO INTERNET AT ALL for 10 days at the end of any given month because SOME BASTARD shut down their business by sending them 3Gb of email for the crack.

They will recommend that their members AVOID this dangerous capped product.

A fair price for no cap is €60 - 75 a month incl VAT @ 21% for one machine, €120-150 or so for 3-5 machines €250 for an entire network.

Bandwidth outta Ireland has collapsed in price anyway and the country is FILLED with fibre that ain't being used by EShat and €ircon

Give me a break.

M

Dustaz

Originally posted by Muck
I have told the local chamber of commerce about the caps and they are freaked out at the prospect of having NO INTERNET AT ALL for 10 days at the end of any given month because SOME BASTARD shut down their business by sending them 3Gb of email for the crack.

Err, they dont cut you off if you exceed the cap, They charge you for the excess.

pete

I'd be interested to know what international bandwidth actually costs - all the dark fibre in the country isn't going to make a single bit of difference to that figure.

The reason I posted that link to the slashdot story was because of the points raised in it about capped services, "bandwidth hogs", competition, contention and whatnot. It's a good if somewhat long read, with a fair amount of well informed, well reasoned debate.

Oh and just because I'd like to pay £100 for an Audi TT Quattro doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen. Sometimes we all have to pay a visit to that place i like to call "the real world"


sorry for rambling

Shred

I'd have to say some of you are being a tad unreasonable, but then again so is Eircom's offer

I'd be willing to pay €50 with the current cap and inclusive of vat, although a higher cap would be nice - something like 5GB

SkepticOne

Originally posted by pete
Oh and just because I'd like to pay £100 for an Audi TT Quattro doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen. Sometimes we all have to pay a visit to that place i like to call "the real world"

If you don't mind me saying so, that's a bit of a stretched analogy. No one is arguing for that kind of discount.

seamus

Well, as someone said before, I'd just like anything 24/7 flatrate. Id pay €40-€50p/m for ADSL ex line rental + VAT or €50p/m for FRIACO incl line rental + VAT (both unlimited obviously)

spongebob

This is a chamber of commerce we are talking about

now they do not want capped adsl just like me.

let €ircon explain it to them.

SkepticOne

I have to admit that I don't know how much ISPs should charge for ADSL. What I want is to see a competitive market with several ISPs each with their own services and prices.

In theory, that is what Eircom's wholesale bitstream product is supposed to give rise to.

After Eircom introduced their ADSL product, their pricing alarmed a lot of people. At the same time the ODTR prevented them from selling it due to what they called "margin sqeeze". This is when a company is both wholesaler and retailer but makes the wholesale price so close to the retail price that other pure retailers can't compete.

The price for the wholesale product has not been released but the extraordinary high price of Eircom.net's retail offering combined with the ODTR's concern about margin squeeze allows us to deduce that Eircom's wholesale bitstream price is very high. I've heard stories that it is around EUR 75 - 80 and there was a story in the paper quoting this figure.

BTW, this wholesale bitstream product does not include connection to the Internet backbone and all caps/bandwidth charges etc. are down to the ISP.

From the above, I would maintain that Ireland's high ADSL charges have nothing to do with bandwidth but are more due to anti-competitive practices in an already uncompetitive environment.

EvilGeorge

I mainly disagree with the cap option.

Charing the likes of a couple of euro per meg after that would work out extremely expensive after that - that would be the option putting me off - I would waste the 3GB limit in a day.

kiffer

is the cap 3GB or 3Gb , and are they being jerks about it, like my HD is 20GB but they are taking gig to be 1000MB not 1024MB ??? and a so on down the line to make things sound bigger?

Mountjoy Mugger

According to the website it's: For eircom i-stream solo the monthly allowance is 3GB

pete

Originally posted by SkepticOne
If you don't mind me saying so, that's a bit of a stretched analogy. No one is arguing for that kind of discount.

Well what do people mean by "uncapped" then? Obviously they don't mean "unlimited", because there's a finite amount of data that can be squeezed down (say) a 256k DSL line over a 30 day period - we accept that there's a physical limit.

So for a 256k DSL connection, does "uncapped" mean "an amount of data no less than the amount which can be downloaded on a 256k DSL line constantly operating at optimal throughput over a 30 day period"

Maybe somebody with a bigger brain than me can work out how much data that would be, and then we can see exactly what people who demand an uncapped service are looking for.

What's the point of all this? I dunno. I'm just curious

TrickyKid

I would waste the 3GB limit in a day

That's exactly the kind of attitude that makes them think they need a cap.

If you are genuinely talking about going through 90 GB per month, then clearly you are an outlier in respect of usage;

As long as there aren't too many outliers operating it would be ok, BUT the reality is, if there are say 10% of the people operating in that fashion it ends up that the moderate user will be charged at a rate that pays for the outliers.

I'd love for that not to be the case but it clearly would be, and as far as I'm concerned I think it is more important the the basic consumer offering is as attractive to the mass market as possible. If a cap allows them to gurantee a lower price then in some ways I'm for it (of course the price they were suggesting comes NOWHERE near a lower price in anyone's book).

People are getting too obsessed about the cap as an issue - you are right 3GB is tight but somewhere between 5-10 would be fine.

Dustaz

5 gig would be fine for 95% of the people signing up for DSL.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by pete
Well what do people mean by "uncapped" then? Obviously they don't mean "unlimited", because there's a finite amount of data that can be squeezed down (say) a 256k DSL line over a 30 day period - we accept that there's a physical limit.

In general when people talk about uncapped they mean access to a shared bandwidth without a fixed download limit such as is available in other coutries. Like any shared resource, it can be abused and the provider normally reserves the right to curb excessive use.

So for a 256k DSL connection, does "uncapped" mean "an amount of data no less than the amount which can be downloaded on a 256k DSL line constantly operating at optimal throughput over a 30 day period".

No, it does not mean using the link to it's maximum capacity for the entire month. There may be some people here who think that is correct but that is not the case.

Maybe somebody with a bigger brain than me can work out how much data that would be, and then we can see exactly what people who demand an uncapped service are looking for.

What's the point of all this? I dunno. I'm just curious

The attractiveness of uncapped broadband for me is not the ability to download terrabytes of information a month but rather the flexibility downloading varying amounts each month without worrying about the cost per megabyte. There will be a premium for this flexibilty but it is important that that choice is offered. That is why I think the £100 Audi analogy is stretched.

pete

Originally posted by SkepticOne
The attractiveness of uncapped broadband for me is not the ability to download terrabytes of information a month but rather the flexibility downloading varying amounts each month without worrying about the cost per megabyte. There will be a premium for this flexibilty but it is important that that choice is offered. That is why I think the £100 Audi analogy is stretched.

The audi thing was never meant to be directly analogous, it was just an attempt at making the "you can't always get what you want" point. I'd love uncapped DSL for €60, but that doesn't mean that in the real world it's economically viable or likely to happen....


There's an awful lot of righteous indignation going around at the moment without any real consideration being given to it... What I'm saying is that - unfortunately - it seems that in most people's minds here, uncapped = a god given right.

edit: Obviously I'm not referring to you here, s1

Manic

We have already paid way over any price that has been requested. This post is pointless. We gave our hearts our soles our thoughts our opinions. Eircom want our Blood. Thats one thing I am not willing to give them. Let them bleed to death in their own BULL*it. For that I would pay any price.

PiE

Originally posted by pete
There's an awful lot of righteous indignation going around at the moment without any real consideration being given to it... What I'm saying is that - unfortunately - it seems that in most people's minds here, uncapped = a god given right.

So we should just accept that we're being horribly over-charged for a sub-standard service (by that I mean a cap, which is inferior in regards to uncapped DSL services available worldwide)? And just forget that eircom have been ripping of the unwitting public for years now?

Oh Ok!

Just on a side-note, according to my download meter, I downloaded a total of 23.56GB and uploaded a total of 3.44GB in a 30-day period.

pete

Originally posted by PiE


So we should just accept that we're being horribly over-charged for a sub-standard service (by that I mean a cap)?

So that's it then, is it? Have we entered the realm of "Give me uncapped broadband or give me death"? Any cap automatically equates to a "sub standard" service?

edit: reply posted before additions to original post. I'm talking about why people feel they're automatically entitled to an unlimited service, not any specific service provider.

MiCr0

in terms of traffic a month:
i've got ntl cable and this is the sort of traffic i put throught it.

DU Meter Daily Report
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Period (Date)    Download      Upload   Both Directions   Dial-Up Time

      05/01/2002   167.23 MB     8.06 MB         175.29 MB            N/A
      06/01/2002   366.59 MB    15.42 MB         382.01 MB            N/A
      07/01/2002   115.70 MB     4.10 MB         119.79 MB            N/A
      08/01/2002    84.69 MB     2.48 MB          87.17 MB            N/A
      09/01/2002    69.33 MB     3.93 MB          73.26 MB            N/A
      10/01/2002    12.51 MB     2.00 MB          14.51 MB            N/A
      12/01/2002   588.89 MB    18.84 MB         607.73 MB            N/A
      13/01/2002   140.64 MB     9.80 MB         150.44 MB            N/A
      14/01/2002    35.57 MB     5.04 MB          40.61 MB            N/A
      15/01/2002    664.5 KB    239.5 KB          904.0 KB            N/A
      16/01/2002    29.39 MB    20.92 MB          50.31 MB            N/A
      17/01/2002   146.88 MB     6.53 MB         153.41 MB            N/A
      18/01/2002   170.09 MB   213.85 MB         383.94 MB            N/A
      19/01/2002   457.83 MB     8.80 MB         466.63 MB            N/A
      20/01/2002     8.84 MB     2.77 MB          11.60 MB            N/A
      21/01/2002   431.24 MB    31.20 MB         462.44 MB            N/A
      22/01/2002    22.81 MB     4.02 MB          26.83 MB            N/A
      23/01/2002     5.48 MB     1.19 MB           6.67 MB            N/A
      24/01/2002     6.54 MB     2.08 MB           8.62 MB            N/A
      25/01/2002   185.12 MB     8.24 MB         193.36 MB            N/A
      26/01/2002     1.32 GB    66.88 MB           1.39 GB            N/A
      27/01/2002    78.24 MB    10.08 MB          88.32 MB            N/A
      28/01/2002    69.99 MB     4.66 MB          74.66 MB            N/A
      29/01/2002     2.49 MB    849.8 KB           3.32 MB            N/A
      30/01/2002    15.27 MB     2.23 MB          17.51 MB            N/A
      31/01/2002    16.99 MB     2.21 MB          19.20 MB            N/A
      01/02/2002     3.89 MB    702.4 KB           4.58 MB            N/A
      02/02/2002    18.81 MB     7.42 MB          26.23 MB            N/A
      03/02/2002    11.23 MB    25.12 MB          36.35 MB            N/A
      04/02/2002    52.74 MB     7.14 MB          59.89 MB            N/A
      05/02/2002   269.45 MB     9.04 MB         278.49 MB            N/A
      06/02/2002   299.08 MB    20.61 MB         319.70 MB            N/A
      07/02/2002     3.69 MB     5.07 MB           8.76 MB            N/A

and i wouldn't consider myself a heavy user

pete

Originally posted by MiCr0
and i wouldn't consider myself a heavy user

Just what sort of daily traffic do you think a 'heavy user' would get through?

edit: edited for atrocious grammar

dahamsta

I think the thing to remember about pricing and caps is that even ISP's and telco's are still trying to come up with pricing plans that are viable for everyone in the long term. Not just for the companies involved, but also for the State, and for consumers; and not just "now" and "soon", but also with regard to long-term viability and growth. Furthermore, it's very difficult to compare country to country, because there are so many variables involved, such as the state of the infrastructure, regulation, wealth, etc. That being said, I believe that Eircom's pricing is unviable using the factors mentioned above; and that without a flat-rate service to serve as a stepping stone to broadband services, Ireland has absolutely no hope of catching up with it's competitors within this decade, if at all.

I understand Eircom's intentions in setting their pricing so high, and I understand the reasons behind those intentions, however I believe that they are being driven by short- to medium-term thinking, and that unfortunately that thinking is all revolved around their intention to unload the company as soon as possible; I believe that the previous board's intentions were the same. That is all well and good for the Eircom shareholders, but Eircom's thinking is not conducive to the progression (or even the creation) of Ireland as a connected state. Both Eircom and the Irish Government have to face up to the fact that the privatisation of Eircom was not the end of their relationship; they have to realise that they have responsibilities: to us, and to each other. As do we.

The Irish Government has a responsibility to the Irish population, to ensure that: our state is on the right path economically; our businesses are able to compete; our citizens are able to educate and express themselves; our citizens have freedom of choice. Eircom has a responsibility to the Irish Government, to ensure that their control of the State's telecommunications infrastructure does not hamper the Government in their efforts to achieve the above. Because of all of that, they both have a responsibility to us; and because we live in a democracy, we also have a responsibility, to ourselves and to our community. We are responsible for making the right choice when we walk into the polling booths this summer; not just for ourselves, but for the people around us, and for the country as an entity in it's own right.

These responsibilities are currently going unfulfilled. The only unfulfilled responsibility that could be considered blameless is that of the Irish people, because when we last voted the situation was very different. We rely on our Government to monitor the wider situation, to act on our behalf, and to protect us, and they have singularly failed in this, they have left themselves, the marketplace, and the Irish people all open to abuse. And Eircom, by placing obstacles in the path of the ODTR, and so our government, are the primary source of that abuse, and so have failed in their responsibilities. Those unfulfilled responsibilities are slowing Ireland's growth as a connected state, and connectivity and technology go hand-in-hand in this age - they drive each other, they drive economies, they are inseparable.

The indifferent and apathetic attitude of the Irish government towards the connectivity problems, together with Eircom's demonstrated ability and willingness to hinder and impede progress and competition, are both contributing to this slowdown. We continue to lose ground on the technological front, and in this age of technological revolution, the losses are exponential, with faster-maturing technological states rapidly accelerating into the distance. This loss, gone unchecked, will almost certainly kickstart an economic tumble that could very well bring this country to it's knees, with Ireland finding itself in an unrecoverable position: unable to compete, unable to take part; impotent, a non-entity.

The situation continues to lead us down the same path, and to the same conclusions -- things have to change, and they have to change fast. And the change has to be legislative, because the only solution to Eircom's abuse of their monopoly in this marketplace is powerful Regulation. So once again, the Communications Bill comes to the fore, and once again it is impossible for IrelandOffline to stress enough the importance of the Bill; the absolute necessity for it to be redrafted without malicious interference from third parties with vested interests; and the absolute requirement for it to be prioritised and enacted -- not within months, but within weeks.

I'm not keen on making broad, sweeping statements that aren't strictly provable (although I admit I often do it without thinking), but personally, I believe that the enactment of a strong Communications Bill - and the actual use of the Bill, whether materially or politically, to mandate and control products, services and pricing - is the only possible solution to halt and correct Ireland's slow topple into third-world technological status. It should be prioritised with that in mind.

What has all this got to do with pricing? Nothing, and that's my point. When there are no products and services, whether broadband, flat-rate or even partial flat-rate, pricing is a non-issue. Until the Communications Bill is passed, we will have no control over pricing, no matter how much we talk and complain about it. Until the Communications Bill is passed, pricing is interesting, not important. We should be concentrating on what's important.

adam

Coyote

It's not the cap that is the problem is the price that Eircom are trying to charge for each GB after that it's £10 if I remember right per GB which is just made up out of the air it has not real bearing on the real price of bandwidth.
You can buy a GB of bandwidth for less that $1 and that is me buying it. Not Eircom who would get it at about 1/3 cost that I can buy it.
I and a number of people I think would not mind the cap if you had to pay some thing like €1-2 per GB you go over and not €12.70 per GB

As a point I will be paying for the full 1mb uncapped ADSL my company do over 1GB a day so paying €12.70 per GB would cost me €140 for the capped DSL line and €350 for the bandwidth. Where if I buy the uncapped DSL it’s just €250 as Eircom prices are set right now.
With luck they will come down and set a proper cap of about 10-15GB per month