Etien Doyle's speach at First Tuesday

SkepticOne

Extract from the section on internet and broadband:

Turning to Broadband, I have already referred to leased lines service quality issues and I may note we are also working on leased line pricing at present. There are about 40,000 leased circuits in Ireland, varying from sub 2Mbit/s up to STM4.We also have a limited amount of broadband delivered via cable modem and Fixed Wireless Access.

The big gap in the range of services is in DSL over copper. As you will know, we have been working on LLU for over a year. Finally, agreements have been signed for the first two switches in Limerick and Ballina. I very much regret that progress has been far slower than I would like and even yet we have to cross check information on availability in the next range of switches sought. Other operators have started into the process and the situation should look very different in a few months. I expect the process to speed up somewhat so that by the second half of this year capacity can be delivered at the rate applying in Denmark in the first half of last year, which brought DSL to over 2% of end users.

The position in respect of bitstream is different. It is not mandated or mandatable under EU or national legislation at present. Bitstream would enable eircom to offer its own DSL service, and other operators to buy a wholesale DSL services from eircom. This was due for launch last autumn. However eircom has so far failed to assure us that their proposed charges for other operators are appropriate. Eircom may launch bitstream 21 days after we approve prices. In the meantime, they and other operators continue to trial the service.

With respect to Internet Access , the ODTR supports the introduction of new Internet products that benefit consumers, and to this end the Office issued a paper for the allocation of additional access codes and number ranges for Internet access last year .The additional codes and number ranges were designed to facilitate two types of Internet access,
1892 - Pay-As-You-Go, whereby, the consumer pays for their telecom time on line but Internet service is free of charge, and,
1893 - Partial or Full Flat Rate Internet Access, including fully unmetered Internet access, the customer is not charged for the telecommunications time on line but pays an agreed subscription rate for its Internet service.

I believe a significant amount of progress has already been made, and my Office is continually monitoring the developments for the introduction of products on these access codes and number ranges, the ODTR will also provide dispute resolution at the request of any party in the event of a breakdown of negotiations.

Full text in MSWord format here.

Arboration

It still measn we have to wait for half a year for decent ISP's. And even then they might not be avalable for all people in Ireland.



This country need's to get it's **** sorted, and sorted fast, before we lose the self apointed "E-Commerce hub of europe."


As for the reason I'm LEAVING this country when I grow old enough to stand upon my own two feet and am armed with my finalised education, The fact that Ireland provides no decent ISP's currently ranges no1 at the top of my list for booking a plain ticket to th US.

Samson

Originally posted by Arboration
As for the reason I'm LEAVING this country when I grow old enough to stand upon my own two feet and am armed with my finalised education, The fact that Ireland provides no decent ISP's currently ranges no1 at the top of my list for booking a plain ticket to th US.

That seems (to me) to be an irrational reason to leave the country.
I agree that the broadband situation in this country is unacceptable, but to quote this as your number one reason to leave ?
I'm bemused.

Surely your quality of life can't be that dependant on the internet ?

Ruu_Old

I find it bareable at the minute, but hardly a reason to leave Ireland

NeMiSiS

I know a company in Belguim that decided against coming here because of the lack of boradband,they provide an accountancy package over the web so they could neither supply it from here or have users that could access it.

A friend of mine is moving to Holland because of lack of broadband,plus he figures he can live and work cheaper over there and he's not paying 450 quid ish for internet bills.

The company I work for must clock up about 700 miles per week (maybe more) on service calls because we cannot remotly access our clients computers under any kind of decent connection(Maybe we should go to the Enviromental protection agency?).

We have a pain in our asses have nothing more to recomend than ISDN,on the one hand I tell clients its expensive but its the only option they have and it will not significantly increase their access speeds.

Now what the hell are we meant to do if ADSL gets rolled out ?
I.E. our clients will essientially be getting rid of ISDN , mind will make our lifes a hell of a lot easier with fixed ip's for our servers speed etc,but they actully think they have high speed access allready,because of in my opinion the way Eircom marketed ISDN as 'hi-speed'.

One thing I have noticed is 99% of our customers detest Eircom but on the otherhand they have no real education as to what a decent internet connection should be.Eircom can easily market their piss poor ADSL packages to these people because they know no better.

The goverment doesnt know **** about the state of net access because WE pay for their leased lines.Another issue would be telewoking,theres alot of stuff I shouldnt necessarily have to go to work to do but because things are the way they are I have to.
If we had the facility to telework it would take alot of people off the raods in the morning,another one for the EPA

Stay at home Mother's and or Fathers with children could
telework for a few hours a day maybe while the children slept bringing in a bit more income to spend in the encomy !

The interent wouldnt be the huge finacial issue it is in households,id say some of our younger users dread when the fone bill arrives and the wrath that is about to be imposed on the by their parents for doing little more than sending email downloading a few mp3's and browsing the web,im sure there are younger users out there whose parents ban the internet on the grounds that its just too expensive,which also excludes the kid from the greatest learning resource the world has ever seen.

Im getting a tad carried away I suppose,but I go to work everyday and I see how ADSL would benifit me and every other 'I.T.' guy ,company,house hold,and child in Ireland.Wether it's me downloading a service pack that takes hours or its a kid not allowed to look up something for school on the internet because "The bill was 400 pounds last month!".

Apologies bit of a rant hope thers something 'valid' burried in there

adios
nem

dahamsta

Personally, if I was offered a good job or a viable business partnership abroad tomorrow, I would pick up and go without hesitation. Running a business on the Internet in Ireland puts me close to insanity at times. I always have to be watching the clock, and my productivity is severely restricted by this. Teleworking or running a SOHO business is next to impossible. Believe me, I know.

adam

Arboration

The internet is no longer just something to be laughed at by old people, because theyu don't know how to use it.

It's come to the stage that yes, people WILL leave the country because the Access is so useless, over both Lesure and Buissness reason's.


So, all in all. I feel that leaving the country because of the current access state is acceptable.

ando

Originally posted by NeMiSiS
The company I work for must clock up about 700 miles per week (maybe more) on service calls because we cannot remotly access our clients computers under any kind of decent connection

your right, life would be so much simpler if all my companies clients has always on connections like dsl or leased lines ! It would also be great for VPN'ing in to their network remotly to try and troubleshoot ... and it would save on about 30% of my companies call outs, EG 'dial up connection' problems

also, while I have the chance to mention this, but some of my companies clients share 56k lines between 10 people ... FFS, 10 PEOPLE ON 1 56K LINE ??? I think i was downloading a microsoft patch at something like 0.4 KBps at one stage .... still at least the long wait gave me time to relax ... thanks eircom/government

10 ppl on 56k is usually rare, but it's pretty much normal to see 10/15 on 1 64Kbps Isdn line.

Sure, berty can brag about how much bandwidth is coming into this country, but thats it.... it passes through a couple of industrial estates and then goes on into europe.... nothing for SME's ... nothing for the joe soap

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Warning

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OT OT OT OT

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and also, FFS berty .... VRT tax's AAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Ireland has the cheapest cars in Europe before vehical registration taxs !!! And where the bloody hell is all this VR Bloody T going ??? On your £ucking berty bowl which I for one don't bloody well want or maybe its all going into the expensive of the paint that you put down on the roads to make bus lanes ....
Many ppl have told me not to move to america as its an expensive place to live ...

*Cough* .. we have
1) Most expensive Internet in Europe
2) Slowest Internet in Europe
3) Most expensive Cars in Europe
4) Most expensive Insurance in Europe and probably the world (I'm 20 ... male !)

maybe I'll follow in Arboration's footsteps and just leave while I can

right, I've gone off the planet with that rant.. I better stop now before I start ranting about women drivers

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Bitstream would enable eircom to offer its own DSL service, and other operators to buy a wholesale DSL services from eircom. This was due for launch last autumn. However eircom has so far failed to assure us that their proposed charges for other operators are appropriate. Eircom may launch bitstream 21 days after we approve prices. In the meantime, they and other operators continue to trial the service.

so basically your doing nothing, ok, I understand

With respect to Internet Access , the ODTR supports the introduction of new Internet products that benefit consumers, and to this end the Office issued a paper for the allocation of additional access codes and number ranges for Internet access last year .The additional codes and number ranges were designed to facilitate two types of Internet access,
1892 - Pay-As-You-Go, whereby, the consumer pays for their telecom time on line but Internet service is free of charge, and,
1893 - Partial or Full Flat Rate Internet Access, including fully unmetered Internet access, the customer is not charged for the telecommunications time on line but pays an agreed subscription rate for its Internet service.

I believe a significant amount of progress has already been made, and my Office is continually monitoring the developments for the introduction of products on these access codes and number ranges, the ODTR will also provide dispute resolution at the request of any party in the event of a breakdown of negotiations.

Right, yeah whatever ... and how long ago did you introduce them numbers ???? but yet, you can clearly see NO progress being made at all in regards to flat-rate, but yet, you are prepared to sit on your arse and pretent your actually doing something. It is clear to see that the UK's internet access flat-rate packages have been extremely succesfull, but yet, you are not prepared to do anything more in getting flat-rate out there for the general public. NO new multi-million networks have to be built.... I don't understand why the Odtr can be so ignorant ???

I sincerly hope that the Odtr have a more positive attitude towards flat-rate once the telecommunications bill is brought into effect

Boston

lets face it lads, none of you will go abroad and stay abroad because of internet, ireland is the best place for the irish, other countries are nice but only when your away do you realize how much you miss home. example, i spend years on these boards, with nothign but americans to talk to, god i was going insane, imagine that 24/7.

Broadband isnt that great btw, you thing it will be this great thing that will forfill your life, but it isnt dont get me wrong, it will change completly how you use the net. but you really see it for what exactly it is.

dahamsta

lets face it lads, none of you will go abroad and stay abroad because of internet

Which part of "if I was offered a good job or a viable business partnership abroad tomorrow, I would pick up and go without hesitation" do I need to clarify? It wasn't a spurious comment, it's a fact.

Broadband isnt that great btw

Neither myself nor Arboration said anything about broadband. I can't speak for Arboration, but I would be happy - for a while - with a decent flat-rate service, even a partial flat-rate service.

Seriously Boston, I don't mean to be argumentative, but you're trying to tell people what they're thinking, and you're making assumptions. I don't like that.

adam

viking

The company I work for provide a wide range of business solutions to companies including web hosting. The servers are connected to a 1Mb leased line.

Today, all of the ~80 sites we host were moved to a virtual server in the good old US of A. Why? Well because the company could no longer afford to maintain the massively high cost of the leased line. Now the servers are being sold off, and some company in America will receive money to host the Irish sites.

This is a prime example of what we are all trying to fight for here, affordable internet access for all, and that includes businesses! I'm sure we're not the only company that was FORCED to do this, but it is bloody disgraceful. E-hub of Europe my HOLE!

Sorry for the rant, but this really got on my wick...

viking

dahamsta

My servers are in the US and the UK, because Irish hosting companies are unable to provide affordable, competitive alternatives; because the cost of bandwidth in Ireland is not cost-oriented. Just said I'd drop that in.

adam

Typedef

When I move out of my mother's house in < 2 month's time I will be favoring anyplace in west Dublin or anyplace that I could reasonably get access to ntl's cable modem service. I don't live in errorcom's selected trial districts even though I live less than three minutes walk from O'Connell street literally (what there is no adequate infrastructure right bang in the middle of town, god help this country if that is so), so in reality the only marginally economic access to the internet there will be for me is cable in an ntl graced area or fecking dialup with whichever operator I think will fleece me the least. So in some respects I will be attempting to move to a broadband area..... not out of the country or anything just for net access.... but a specific location in Dublin, you bet.

TrickyKid

I had a somewhat polite exchange with the odtr with regards to the lack of movement on ADSL, I'm moving out of my apartment on Friday, and saying goodbye to my ADSL line.

I've a first hand witnessed the increase in my productivity, and the hugely increased flexibility I've had, by having a decent quality always on internet access at home. It has simply meant that I've been able to do things at home rather then having to haul my arse in to the office (admittedly only a 20 minute walk, but you try being up for that at 11 pm) and do them quickly. It's also meant that you can actually successfully do more then one thing at once on the net (listen to radio while working on the net and NOT have it rebuffer every 20 seconds) ....

Anyway; I'm depressed and I can't see any resolution to it; no I wouldn't move to another country for easy broadband access - but it sure as hell would help compensate for the obscene rents we pay in Dublin if someone got their finger out of their arse, and provide the kind of infrastructure that any city needs.

Praetorian

Please do not laugh but.... Our company has 40 people running off 1 x 56k line....

The emails alone are enough to cripple it...sometimes incoming mail is delayed by upto 8 hours

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Boston


Broadband isnt that great btw, you thing it will be this great thing that will forfill your life, but it isnt dont get me wrong, it will change completly how you use the net. but you really see it for what exactly it is.

agreed.
when you actully grow up and stop shooting people on line you will then wonder what you are going to do with so much net access.
yes, its great for d/ling pr0n fi thats what blows your skirt up, but im sure you will grow out of that eventually too.
what else ar you going to use it for?

to leave a country for the only reason that internet access in ireland is crap is that most stupid thing ive read on these boards today (and theres always something stuppid to read here)

fortunately i have free dsl, but you know what i do with it?
i read boards, i read my mail. i get football results and updates.
all of which i can happily do on a 56k modem.

Quorthon

Agree in general with Whitewashman, although not with the 56k bit.

For me I would be quite happy if we could get some sort of flat rate product that would apply to ISDN.

64k/128k ISDN is fine for me - gamings great, web pages load quickly enough - I dont d/l Linux ISO's or masses of pr0n so 512k would be total overkill.

Just give us some form of flat rate ffs - it wouldnt require tons of new investment upgrading the copper etc to acceptable quality and for most peoples uses, would be perfectly acceptable. Im not saying we should completely give up any hope of having broadband in the future, or that investment in upgrading copper/cable to decent speeds should cease - only that some form of flat rate product is something that could be implemented NOW, with no infrastructural delays required.

The only thing thats stopping it is the Eircon monopoly - and this is where the ODTR should get its finger out.

Q

Dustaz

Originally posted by Boston

Broadband isnt that great btw

Rubbish.

Broadband is great.

Broadband isnt going to get you laid. Broadband isnt going to make you smarter. Broadband isnt going to lengthen your life or make your anymore healthy.

What broadband IS going to do is make the entire online experience what it should be. Fast.
Whether you shoot people or check the latest football results, you can do it there and then.

Example 1:
WWman, like you i use the web to check out the footie all the time. When i was 56k i didnt bother - it was quicker to check the teletext. Now that i dont have to wait 30 seconds to dial up, wait another 30 seconds per page to actually get to the results page, i use the internet. It takes less than 3 seconds.

Example 2:
I am a video editor. Almost every day i cut pictures to music. Up untill about 6 months ago the procedure was this:
Think of a track,
go out and buy said track/get someone to buy it and bring it in.
About 6 months ago, i just said bugger it and started downloading the songs i needed from kazaa/napster/whatever. Because we have a broadband connection in work, i can think of a track and have it in about 2 minutes. The nice thing about this is i can try out as many different tracks as i want untill were all happy.
The point is that it is easier to go to the shops and buy a few CDs than go through this method on 56k, FRIACO or not.

FRIACO is desperatly needed for a lot of reasons, but at the end of the day its oriented towards 56k which at this stage is outmoded.
what makes broadband great is that it realises the true potential of anything you wish to do on the internet.

Boston

Originally posted by dahamsta
lets face it lads, none of you will go abroad and stay abroad because of internet

Which part of "if I was offered a good job or a viable business partnership abroad tomorrow, I would pick up and go without hesitation" do I need to clarify? It wasn't a spurious comment, it's a fact.

Broadband isnt that great btw

Neither myself nor Arboration said anything about broadband. I can't speak for Arboration, but I would be happy - for a while - with a decent flat-rate service, even a partial flat-rate service.

Seriously Boston, I don't mean to be argumentative, but you're trying to tell people what they're thinking, and you're making assumptions. I don't like that.

adam

tell me this dahamsta, have you ever lived abroad?

if the answer is yes then fair enough, but obviously what ever made you lived there wasnt enough to keep you there.

If you havent, then believe me, boardband, hell even decent net access isnt enough to keep you there. you say if you had a decent partnership, erll that might keep you there, but dont pretend it will answer all your problems, in fact it may cause more

Dustaz, the use of the word that, means that the statement is relative. I dont think its worth leaving ireland over. people get so worked up over broadband its unbelievable, the last example was MF on this very forum. its not worth the hassel for personal use.
business of course is goign to be different as it could be costing you an arm and a leg other wise.


Btw is anybody else getting huge esb bills, my last was for 250 euro.

emmet

Originally posted by dahamsta
My servers are in the US and the UK, because Irish hosting companies are unable to provide affordable, competitive alternatives; because the cost of bandwidth in Ireland is not cost-oriented. Just said I'd drop that in.



adam

Ditto. Hosting in the US is a no-brainer.

Emmet.

dahamsta

tell me this dahamsta, have you ever lived abroad?

Nope.

If you havent, then believe me, boardband, hell even decent net access isnt enough to keep you there. you say if you had a decent partnership, erll that might keep you there, but dont pretend it will answer all your problems, in fact it may cause more

But how do you know that Boston? You don't know me, what I like, what I do, where I want to be, how I want to get there...

adam

Boston

basically i dont think anybody is that pedantic

Stonemason

Well to be honest im from the UK since ive been here i have been taxed £3000 for bring in my own car to the country i have had my car insurance jump from £200 stg to £900 punts i have had my road tax jump from £145 per year to £360 and the roads im suposedly paying for are no better than dirt tracks ive had my wages fall buy half since i started working here ive seen a packet of chocolate biccy jump from 79p to £1.50 in the space of 2 years and wages that dont seem to do the same.My partner of 12 years is considered as my commonlaw wife when i go to sign on so we get less money yet when im working im classed as a single man and have to pay tax accordingly.ive seen court case after court case ivolving the goverment and fraud charges.And the final straw has to be that the telephone system built with all the taxes squeezed out of every hard working honest Irishman and woman taken over by a greedy incompentant organisation like eircom who has taken greed to a new low and refuse to help the people of this country help themselfs on a world market .Broadband isnt the be all and end all no but it would sure help me in my busines and many like me. ffs the odds are stacked against us enough as it is.


********************NOW THATS A RANT:d***************


Stone:D

Manic

Welcome to IRELAND Stone. I can say that from my heart. But unfortunately the people who run this Country are on a different planet and it may take some time for them to contact / get to you. But trust me when they do things will only get worse LOL! Sorry mate just haveing a go Welcome aboard

Manic

P.S. Or as we say over here 'Welcome Home'

p2p

--- Warning Unrelated point --- !

Dustaz , can you email me at peertopeer@iolfree.ie
Want to talk to you about the music editing, if thats ok ?

Xian

http://www.sbpost.ie/story.jsp?list=businesspost&rightnav=/common/navs/right/sponsorsnav.jsp&advert=/common/adverts/top/sundaypaper.htm&title=Sunday+Paper&story=WCContent;id-37873

Doyle said [...] that calls for "broadband for all" were often not thought through, comparing it to trying to drain the Shannon.

Any comments from the Committee?

Dustaz

Originally posted by p2p


Dustaz , can you email me at peertopeer@iolfree.ie
Want to talk to you about the music editing, if thats ok ?

eep, looks like IMRO are on to me:)

p2p

Nope not imro
Just wanted to ask you bout
the job, its something i wouldnt mind
doing meself.
Sorry bout the unrelated post !

dahamsta

Any comments from the Committee?

It depends on the context, and more importantly the timeframe you place on it Xian. A call for "broadband for all within the next year" would be illogical and unworkable; whereas a call for "broadband for all within the next decade" would seem to be to me to be more logical, more workable, and ultimately something we should strive towards. (Notice I say "should" and not "could" -- with the limited information available to us, it's next to impossible for us to decide what the timeframe should be (we can guess, but we're unlikely to be right).)

I'm presuming that you're referring to IrelandOffline's third objective here though which you have commented on (and ultimately asked to be removed), and it has to be said that it doesn't have a timeframe at all, it's just "universal access to broadband services for all users". Whatever about a timeframe, again, I believe that this an entirely logical objective to strive towards. I feel that the universal availablity of broadband at some time in the future would be beneficial to Irish people and our State.

We're taking a vote on your proposal at the moment by the way. I'll let you know when we come to a decision.

adam

Yoda

Adam responded to Xian:
I'm presuming that you're referring to IrelandOffline's third objective here, though, which you have commented on (and ultimately asked to be removed), and it has to be said that it doesn't have a timeframe at all, it's just "universal access to broadband services for all users". Whatever about a timeframe, again, I believe that this an entirely logical objective to strive towards. I feel that the universal availablity of broadband at some time in the future would be beneficial to Irish people and our State.

I feel that this approach is seriously flawed. Some time ago Xian started a post which was described as such an interesting thread that it was made a sticky -- until it became clear that the thread had become a challenge to the IrelandOffline committee that it reconsider its priorities and make unmetered access its number one priority. Then the thread was retired from its prominent status, and appeared that no prioritization was to be on the cards, and that the status quo would prevail.

It was in May 2001 that I first learned the word "FRIACO". It is now February 2002 and my phone bills, and your phone bills, and everybody else's phone bills are just as high as they ever have been. Introducing unmetered internet access is a matter of changing the pricing schedule. Introducing unmetered internet access amounts to reintroducing the unmetered local call price that Telecom Éireann offered until 1990! This can be accomplished, as one of the committee members noted, "with the flick of a switch". Yet most of the members of IrelandOffline and, as far as I can see, the members of the committee itself, have decided that they really want broadband, despite the evident correctness of Xian's argument.

And no one appears to be doing anything whatsoever about achieving unmetered access. Sure, Adam, "the universal availability of broadband at some time in the future would be beneficial to Irish people and our State." And to achieve it would cost millions of euros of infrastructural investment which has yet to be planned, never mind implemented. And in the meantime Irish people, Irish small businesses, and our State will continue to suffer the indignity and uncompetitiveness caused by metered internet access.

I am sure that the monopoly which will not allow unmetered access to its own ISP (effectively keeping the other ISPs from being able to do the same) is perfectly happy to know that the IrelandOffline committee is interested in wasting valuable time and resources campaigning for something which will (of course) be introduced "at some time in the future" instead of prioritizing on what would really make a difference to the Irish households and Irish businesses. If IrelandOffline cannot agree to prioritize unmetered access "now" the game will just go on and on and the monopoly will continue to laugh all the way to the bank.

Xian sent a reasoned argument of more than 2400 words in his post on the third objective. It received a few words of praise from a few people, and a lot of nonsense comments from some others saying "Good argument but I'm not convinced". Yet no one, I believe, has made any attempt to refute a single point he made.

Indeed, from what Etain Doyle said about calls for "broadband for all," it seems to me that it is not unlikely that she has read Xian's post and that she, in fact, agrees with him.

Adam also said:
We're taking a vote on your proposal at the moment by the way. I'll let you know when we come to a decision.

Bear in mind that any decision taken by the IrelandOffline committee, in light of Etain Doyle's statement, has to be justifiable in public. The committee, therefore, cannot hide behind personal preferences in reaching this decision.

Xian said:
The argument for campaigning for FRIACO alone is simple. Removing the fear of high phone bills, more people will venture onto the web. A greater user base for telcos will encourage them to offer a wider range of services of differing bandwidths to encourage users to upgrade. Competition among telcos for this hitherto non-existent market will reduce prices for these services. With an increasing range of services offered at affordable prices, the number of new internet users increases exponentially from the doldrums it is in today. The membership of IrelandOffline achieve all of their objectives as the introduction of FRIACO is achieved, affordable domestic broadband is made available and marginal areas are targeted as untapped markets. The internet user base reaches average OECD levels or more, remedying Ireland's current appalling rating in this regard. All for "the flip of a switch" as was mentioned elsewhere.

I believe him. I'd wager that Etain Doyle believes him. I believe that IrelandOffline must make unmetered access its first priority -- and that means to stop wasting time and resources on the broadband objective now. Take it back up after we get unmetered access. But for now, if IrelandOffline is to be meaningful at all, it must work for a meaningful objective.