Should the ODTR allow eircom implement adsl at the expense of Esat?

Typedef

Simple question.

This whole thing with the ODTR could have adsl tied up in court litigation for years, in this case is the wait worth it for a possible lower cost adsl service or is the wait itself damaging the market for such products and thus self defeating?

Dustaz

I voted for litigation but id like to hear for's and against's

Lemming

If EirW*nk are allowed to release their *cough* service, then they'll think that they can do what they like. Unless they are made to change their practices, nothing will change and only result in further long term damage.

Liken it to this ....

sending an armed force into a campaign that you know is going to be VERY bloody, but will shorten the lifespan of a conflict, thus saving more lives uin the long term.

We can b*tch and moan and whine cause we want it now, but if we get it now, it'll cause further damage to the market.

Kix

Litigation is the only answer to properly protect the rights of the consumer.

I don't like it but there it is. There's a very important principle at stake.

K

c0y0te

I voted no.....

because taking ADSL at 'any price' would be a massive mistake, and not forcing Eircon to address their anti-competitive stance at this stage would just prolong the monopoly.

I don't want to be having this conversation in two years time, instead I want a competitive state to exist where competing services/offerings actually benefit the consumer. If going through the pain of the ODTR and courts processes is the only way to get there.. then so be it.

The monopolies have had their way for far too long in this country. It's time to stand up to them and change things for the better. Change = pain, but not forever. It will be better for all in the long run to deal with this issue now, not leave it on the long finger.

c0y0te

Dustaz

Lemming, i dont think you quite understand. The ODTR dont seem to have a problem with Eircoms ADSL Retail price. Its the wholesale price that is causing the problems.

The idea behind waiting for the litigation etc, is so that the wholesale price drops low enough for an OLO to price a DSL service lower than eircom.
In other words, they will be allowed to release a product that costs 130, but who'll bother if theres a similar one available for 70 (i made that figure up:P )

Actually thats not quite right, but the whole thing is explained a LOT better than i can explain it in other threads.

gurramok

nobody likes to wait, but the waiting has to be done..
as its being said its a point of principle...if its released now at all costs, what would stop €ircoN hiking the price further in the future....a bit like Telstra are doing down under.
i am willing to wait as long as necessary until affordable broadband of any kind is released.

dahamsta

Glad to see IO members thinking sensibly. Of course it's tempting to say "roll the damn thing out, we'll sort it out later" (and I certainly give that impression in some of my posts, although that's not exactly what I mean), but in the long term, it would simply be wrong for the Regulator to stand down now. There's no doubt that no matter what happens, the pricing will eventually come down, but if Eircom is allowed to roll out at their current pricing, their first price drop will be to ~€75+, and even that is unviable for the majority of users, and will slow the growth of broadband /too much/. There's no doubt that growth needs to be controlled, but it can't be choked either. Of course, this all applies to the OLO's too, since pricing for everyone involved is going to be pretty tight at the start.

adam

SkepticOne

"Litigate Eircom to lower it's prices to competitors, no matter how long it takes"

IANAL but I don't think there is a legal basis for litigation right now. Certain things must be provided by Eircom and the price can be set by the ODTR but wholesale bitstream ADSL is not one of these. This was pointed out by Etain Doyle at her address at the First Tuesday meeting.

The whole thing could be characterised as a stand-off. The ODTR saying "you can't rollout ADSL unless you provide a cost oriented wholesale product" and Eircom saying, "Fine, well just continue charging by the second for 56K and ISDN, then".

Should the ODTR stand firm? I think so. By doing so, competition like ESAT in Limerick and EAP in Dublin will appear. These will undermine Eircom's "last mile" monopoly and therefore the option of charging mad monopoly prices will be gone.

Lemming

Originally posted by Dustaz
Lemming, i dont think you quite understand. The ODTR dont seem to have a problem with Eircoms ADSL Retail price. Its the wholesale price that is causing the problems.

The idea behind waiting for the litigation etc, is so that the wholesale price drops low enough for an OLO to price a DSL service lower than eircom.
In other words, they will be allowed to release a product that costs 130, but who'll bother if theres a similar one available for 70 (i made that figure up:P )

Actually thats not quite right, but the whole thing is explained a LOT better than i can explain it in other threads.

I do understand what's going on Dustaz I'm just saying that if it IS rolled out, not only is it going to damage consumer figures, but the telecomms industry (and thus the economy).

I voted for litigation

Bard

Well said!

Nice to see us united in one strong voice on this issue... 100% behind the litigation option (for which I've just voted), and not prepared to cop out and "take the easy option".

mdf

The point is that if the ODTR 'approve' eircom's prices then they could be sued by the other operators or the Government. It's not as simple as taking a decision to approve/not apporve.

mdf

The position in respect of bitstream is different. It is not mandated – or mandatable – under EU or national legislation at present. Bitstream would enable eircom to offer its own DSL service, and other operators to buy a wholesale DSL services from eircom

Quote from the First Tiesday Speech

Boston

i said "Litigate Eircom to lower it's prices to competitors, no matter how long it takes"

and im on adsl, id be more then willing to give it up for security in the future

Praetorian

Firsly I'm not 100% sure either way RE: the poll.

What I do know is that Ireland is choking because we do not have reliable & affordable broadband NOW. Many companies are losing great business opportunities and alot of companies can not expand.

Foreign companies considering Ireland as a viable location always seem to come to the same conclusion, great people, nice country, terrible communications.

Our own company just lost out on a very large Siemens contract....A British firm got the business because we could not provide an adequate track and trace service...

"The ODTR could have adsl tied up in court litigation for years" This is true. This also could be disastrous for the country.

I am just trying to look at this from a different perspective.

Adam. I’ve had a really really bad day and I may not be thinking straight but… “Glad to see IO members thinking sensibly” Is this just because they agree with your opinion?

dahamsta

Adam. I’ve had a really really bad day and I may not be thinking straight but… “Glad to see IO members thinking sensibly” Is this just because they agree with your opinion?

Nope. The commentary is intelligent. I respect that.

adam

gurramok

Originally posted by Praetorian
Firsly I'm not 100% sure either way RE: the poll.

What I do know is that Ireland is choking because we do not have reliable & affordable broadband NOW. Many companies are losing great business opportunities and alot of companies can not expand.

errr...even if it is released now, alot of companies will be ripped-off at its current price in comparison with our competitors in Europe.
That same contract will still go to the British firm coz of the proposed dsl pricing in ireland anyway. Its a disaster one way or the other unless the pricing is competitive...just look at the other thread, BT slashing dsl prices....over here its in the other direction which ever way u look at it !

BTW...the tone of this thread is that ppl will not be ripped-off in their desperation for dsl, hence i agree with the litigation option.

gandalf

I voted No as well.

The basic fact is Eircom have structured the pricing in a way that makes it economically unviable for competitors to operate. If there is no competition there will be less choice and higher prices for us the customers.

Its a no brainer really.

Gandalf.

Praetorian

Originally posted by gurramok


errr...even if it is released now, alot of companies will be ripped-off at its current price in comparison with our competitors in Europe.
That same contract will still go to the British firm coz of the proposed dsl pricing in ireland anyway. Its a disaster one way or the other unless the pricing is competitive...just look at the other thread, BT slashing dsl prices....over here its in the other direction which ever way u look at it !

BTW...the tone of this thread is that ppl will not be ripped-off in their desperation for dsl, hence i agree with the litigation option.

Allot of companies (Most large companies) see their telephone bill as insignificant compared to the value of the business they are missing out on.

pork99

Perhaps the government should "sack" eircom and bring in BT to run telecoms, roll out broadband etc. If they treated the Irish telecom system as a UK region we could benefit from economies of scale

Scruff

so who are the 4 (so far) that voted to allow €irconn to sell it now? they didn't care to explain why they did......must be €irconn stooges who keep an eye on this board.....cowrads!

Bard

Originally posted by pork99
Perhaps the government should "sack" eircom and bring in BT to run telecoms, roll out broadband etc. If they treated the Irish telecom system as a UK region we could benefit from economies of scale

The government can do no such thing - eircom are no longer state owned and they themselves own the communications infrastructure... basically they are in a very strong position to call the shots, and the ODTR needs bigger sharper teeth.

dahamsta

The government can do no such thing - eircom are no longer state owned and they themselves own the communications infrastructure... basically they are in a very strong position to call the shots, and the ODTR needs bigger sharper teeth.

Compulsory purchase? I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, I'm just saying it's a way of doing it. Renationalise the infrastructure, and hand operations over to a private contractor.

I wouldn't give the operations to BT in a fit by the way.

adam

[Changed "reprivatised" to "renationalised". Duh.]

dahamsta

so who are the 4 (so far) that voted to allow €irconn to sell it now?

Who cares? Everyone has a right to an opinion, even Eircom. As long as they don't try to rig the poll, people can vote how they like as far as I'm concerned.

they didn't care to explain why they did......must be €irconn stooges who keep an eye on this board.....cowrads!

They probably think they'd be mauled if they did. But I won't let them be mauled, so they should feel free to state their reasoning, as long as they at least attempt to use some kind of logic. I wouldn't mind a proper debate on this anyway.

adam

Praetorian

I am one of the 8%. I recognise the pros and cons of going either way. I dont work for Eircom...in fact I hate the company.

The poll being rigged? Hardly!

This forum attract's the attention of Anti Eircom people rather than pro Eircom people. The percentages would be more than likely closer if the general public had voted.

Anyway I think we all know that at the end of the day, Eircom will not get away with their originally proposed pricing structure.

Hopefully, it will take weeks rather than months for Eircom to accept that.

If it takes years...

dahamsta

The poll being rigged? Hardly!

Ya think?

adam

pork99

I wouldn't give the operations to BT in a fit by the way.

Yes they are almost as bad as eircom but they differ in having at least eventually managed to roll out dsl at something like a competitive price

Coyote

well I'm one of the people who vote to have DSL on sale right now. I know a number of you want cheep internet access for home and so do I, but the truth is this is just some thing that you would like, you do not have to have a full time internet access just to run your company.
You ask anyone paying for a 1mb lease line who is paying about £18,000 = cheap, mabey up to £28,000 a year for it and then ask them if they would like a 1mb DSL line for £2500 and I think you will find they will think it's a good deal to start with and then have the ODTR go at Eircom to make it much cheeper.

I know a load of people are going to hate me for this but very few of you have to pay huge internet access bills ie:the cost of a new car ever year. if you try to force Eircom to make it cheep enuf to make you guys happy then they will just will never do it,

It's the same as when moble phones came out first they cost a bomb to have but the first people payed for the network to be bulit and then they made it cheeper, what you want, is for the network to be bulit and then sell access cheep so who pays for the network to be bulit then ????? no one so what eircom do they deside to drag there feet as much as they can too slow it down and make as much money on the old network when they can.
it's a very short term view too take but it's what they have done.

Coyote

Bard

Originally posted by dahamsta

Compulsory purchase? I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, I'm just saying it's a way of doing it. Reprivatise the infrastructure, and hand operations over to a private contractor.

Hang on ... where you say "Reprivatise the infrastructure"... don't you mean "re-nationalise" it? ... 'cos if so, I think that's a great idea... but then again, I never thought Telecom Eireann should have been FULLY privatised anyway... (I always thought and still think that the telecomms infrastructure should have remained in the Governments hands). Ireland's too small a country for such a national asset NOT to be owned by the state.

SkepticOne

Here's my predictions of what is going to happen:

1. The standoff between Eircom and the ODTR drags on.

2. EAP bring out a wireless service. It is still too expensive for home users but a lot cheaper than the former Formus wireless service.

3. Eircom lose a lot of money to EAP from both leased lines and ISDN business customers. Businesses benefit.

4. Esat start offering SDSL services in Limerick under LLU. Others roll out similar services in other parts of the country.

5. Finally, Eircom are forced to introduce ADSL at a reasonable price. Both home consumers and businesses benefit. Since they are now offering a wholesale product at an attractive price, home users have a choice of ISP like in Britain.

6. EAP in Dublin and Esat and other companies start offering consumer grade services in order to compete with Eircom.

This is a long term view and depends on a degree of pig-headed stupidity on Eircom's part but that is why I support the ODTR at this point in time.

I realise there are two sides to the story and that there's many businesses, even small ones, who would jump on Eircom's current ADSL offering right now to avoid paying even more to Eircom on other products.

Manic

The ODTR (bad an all as it is) is all we have to fight against Eircom's Monoply. So I vote for litigation. But the old saying 'Hurry Up and WAIT' springs to mind.