No offence, but Metal?!?

Ph3n0m

ok the last few lines off my last post were an inane contradiction, but you do see the point I am trying to make - do you?

Lemming

Originally posted by danbert
But, does this not show a lack of imagination to go and find something new? I mean if all the great musicians of the past had just listened to what came b4, decide that they liked it and made more, surely music would never progress?

Not a lack of imagination at all.

Firstly because the listener has found something that either appeals to them on an audible level or a more deeper, personal level. So to say they haven't gone out and found something new isn't fair. They've gone out and found "daddy's old records" or something, but they've found them, not been handed them and told to listen to them cause everyone else is.

Secondly, because most music, as most things in life, move in cycles. Granted .. there are exceptions (musically speaking) such as classical, although even within that "constant", there are cycles and evolution ie. baroque, romantic, etc.

Since we're on the topic of metal music, lets use that as our example of music cycles. Metal music was the IN thing back in the 1980s, then disappeared into the background. Now its back again. I'm pretty sure in about 5-10 years it'll fade away again, only to resurface in 2020 or something (music pundits take your bets ). If you follow my arguement?

Now .. all that said and done, from a musician point of view, the music will always evolve, if even on a subconsious level. With each new cycle of a particular music gaining new listeners (some of whom become musicians to that music), these musicians will add their own experiences and thoughts to it, thus evolving it. These changes might be subtle, or they might be radical, but they do occur.

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by Rolo Tomasi
Lemming
But dont condemn talented musicians such as Tool and Aphex Twin just because of the genre of music they play.

Frankly, I wouldn't insult Aphex Twin by calling it Dance.


And other than that, this is a completely pointless arguement.

There's things being done in Metal today that are by far more experimental and innovative than anything before.
It's not rehash, rehash, rehash.

Please, listen to a band like Opeth, and tell me that that's been done before.
Listen to Mayhem's new album and tell me you've heard something that sounds like that.
Listen to Borknagar's new album, and tell me that nothing is progressing.
Shall I go on?

This is a completely ridiculous arguement altogether.
The more I read this "Danbert"s posts, the more I see that it's an arguement based on what is popular at the time, and nothing more.

If it's not... Please tell me this "Something New" that you keep waffling about.

Tazz T

Makes me feel kinda warm inside seeing so many posts about Metal. Despite the row of old school versus nu, it's obvious that Metal is back big-time.

cournioni

Originally posted by dccarm
Just sweaty long haired men yelling into a microphone. I could do that. No imagination required!

I'd love to see a dj play Slayer's Reign in Blood on guitar or even bass for that matter!. And if you'd actually listen to metal you'd find that it isn't all screaming. In fact there isn't much screaming at all in some bands cases. Thats just something the media has put in your head.

Your assessment of dance music is just plain ignorant and I'm sure everyone reading it will agree.

I don't. I head out to some of those dance clubs up here as there ain't any metal ones to go to. Just to get pissed and laid of course. And I find that statement very valid indeed. Plus the fact that I could make out more lyrics from a metal song than those of a dance tune.

I'm sorry to say but I think your music is completely fake and there is no talent in it at all. (I know cos my cousin has one of those rave e-jay thingy's and I mixed a Soulfly song on it.) To be honest it was very easy and was done within a minute or two. And it sounded better than that crap you listen to.

Makaveli

I'd just like to point out that most of this nu-metal uses rap. I mean they have djs ffs and the so called vocalists dont sing they rap too. ****in Fred Durst thinks he's an emcee. The reason they use rap too is because it's probably the most popular music genre at the moment.
Old skool metal heads might think this nu-metal is an insult to older metal, this may be true I dunno, I dont listen to any metal tbh, I think this nu-metal is an insult to rap and hip-hop and it's ****e to boot.
IMO nu-metal is just a hybrid of 2 maybe 3 genres. It will fizzle out eventually (well hopefully anyway).

cournioni

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
Bullshít... why do you think this, because most metal musicians can play extremely fast? If thats what you're thinkin' than you're a fool. Speed isn't what good musicianship is about. Diversity is what it's about. Also, how do you know this?
Rock and metal are pretty much along the same lines, but more often I've found rock musicians to be better...

So your sayin that a musician from say... Oasis or Stereophonics would blow away Kerry King or Trey Azagototh on guitars?

Your saying that a person from Oasis or Stereophonics is better than Raymond Herrera or Dave Lombardo or any other metal drummer?

I'd say youre a fool if thats the case. I know because I play both instruments. And from my experience I'd say the same thing as he said.

Makaveli

Gotta agree with PornNapster there. All those crappy rock bands like oasis and sterophonics and travis and the like can basically just play the few chords of the songs they have, while I have seen metal guitarists go off in these mad riffs that are quite amazing.
Are Foo Fighters rock or metal?

cournioni

Originally posted by Makaveli
Are Foo Fighters rock or metal?

I'd say somewhere in between.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER

So your sayin that a musician from say... Oasis or Stereophonics would blow away Kerry King or Trey Azagototh on guitars?

Your saying that a person from Oasis or Stereophonics is better than Raymond Herrera or Dave Lombardo or any other metal drummer?

I'd say youre a fool if thats the case. I know because I play both instruments. And from my experience I'd say the same thing as he said.

No, not at all. Oasis and Stereophonics are complete bóllox. You'd be surprised Pornapster but I'd agree on alot of things. However, what's your definition of "better"
I'm a drummer, I don't go for speed, I go for precision and skill and dynamics... thumpin double bass drum at rediculous speeds is not good drummin, it's just fast. I see a very thin line between proper rock musicians and metal, in fact there's almost no line. My influences would be Lars Ulrich, Dave Abruzzesse, Ronnie Tutt, Lenny White, Mike Bordin and Steve Adler, and then to lesser extents heavier drummers, I don't know all their names, but I took ideas and was also influenced by Sepultura, Soundgarden, Pantera, Slayer and alot of other heavy metal bands. So what does that tell you?

I'm not talking pop shít like Oasis or Stereophonics, I'm talkin proper rock. It's about diversity, not speed, and almost 90% of drummers that I've seen/met on the Dublin scene are not diverse. I'd like to hear you play, it'd be interesting.

So, I don't listen to the heavier bands anymore but my influences are diverse, therefore my style is diverse. For example, I would prefer Dave Abruzzesse's stlye of drumming over Lars Ulrich, and I would consider him a far superior drummer, but... they are different styles. One is grunge/rock, and one is metal. I suppose in the end it's whatever your opinion of skill is. 9 out of 10* heavy metal drummers and guitarists/bass players are speed players, I don't consider this skillful, I consider it fast! but then that's often the idea of metal isn't it?



*not a fact, just what I reckon

Rolo Tomasi

Originally posted by AngelWhore


Frankly, I wouldn't insult Aphex Twin by calling it Dance.


And other than that, this is a completely pointless arguement.

There's things being done in Metal today that are by far more experimental and innovative than anything before.
It's not rehash, rehash, rehash.

Please, listen to a band like Opeth, and tell me that that's been done before.
Listen to Mayhem's new album and tell me you've heard something that sounds like that.
Listen to Borknagar's new album, and tell me that nothing is progressing.
Shall I go on?

This is a completely ridiculous arguement altogether.
The more I read this "Danbert"s posts, the more I see that it's an arguement based on what is popular at the time, and nothing more.

If it's not... Please tell me this "Something New" that you keep waffling about.

Point 1.Where in my post did I refer to Aphex Twin as Dance? Making stuff up for the sake of a post?

Second Point: How is this a pointless arguement? This debate had almost been dragged down to the level of a slagging match based on "my music requires way more talent and skill than yours."

If you you truely like music then you will identify with certain aspects of all music. If you refuse to listen to other genres then your an idiot.

Cheez

Dr. Loon if you like the sweet style of dave abruseething
and Lars Ulrichs heavyness u'd probably apreciate
TooLs drummer Danny Carey
Check out the drum solo in the song "46&2" tis
amazin sir amazin

Thats a bit harsh callin people idiots for not listenin ta
musics various flavours they can do what they want
doesnt mean their dum

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by Cheez
Dr. Loon if you like the sweet style of dave abruseething
and Lars Ulrichs heavyness u'd probably apreciate
TooLs drummer Danny Carey
Check out the drum solo in the song "46&2" tis
amazin sir amazin

Thats a bit harsh callin people idiots for not listenin ta
musics various flavours they can do what they want
doesnt mean their dum

Oh I have checked him out, but I'm not big into the band, so that makes it difficult to listen to. I can appreciate his skill and precision, and it's a nice change for thei style of music.
I don't mean that people are idiots for not listening to something... if I made it out that way then I was probably just being hasty.
However if a musician wants to take themselves and their music seriously then yes, they should venture and experiment with al types of music regardless of what music they want to play. I mean, obviously that's gonna be your speciality, but to have knowledge and skill in different genres, gives you so much more ability in your chosen genre.

cournioni

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
I don't know all their names, but I took ideas and was also influenced by Sepultura, Soundgarden, Pantera, Slayer and alot of other heavy metal bands. So what does that tell you?
[/SIZE]

It tells me you should listen to Ray Herrera (Fear Factory) and Pete Sandoval (Morbid Angel). Yes they may play at rediculous speeds but theres alot of precision from both of them.#

You really should check em out. Another good one is Richard Christy from Iced Earth.

Karl Hungus

Hehe...

Pornapster.

What about Hellhammer?

He plays with about 50 different bands, goes on tour with a load of Jazz bands and everything.
Was also in the Guinness Book of World records at some stage.
And he's a master of just about every style of drumming there is.

I'd like to see ANY drummer from ANY form of music try and touch what he does.

][Spoof Jesus][

metal is getting increasingly bad i must admit...Metallica just wrent downhill in 1990...I like a lot of various kinds of music...the only things i see inproving is Tool and some hardcore bands like Pulkas and Vision of Disorder...most of the other stuff is getting worse and worse...

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by ][Spoof Jesus][
metal is getting increasingly bad i must admit...Metallica just wrent downhill in 1990...I like a lot of various kinds of music...the only things i see inproving is Tool and some hardcore bands like Pulkas and Vision of Disorder...most of the other stuff is getting worse and worse...

Most underground stuff is doing amazing things.
Just because all you see is the rubbish that MTV is blowing out of its nose, doesn't mean that's all there is to it.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by AngelWhore
Hehe...

Pornapster.

What about Hellhammer?

He plays with about 50 different bands, goes on tour with a load of Jazz bands and everything.
Was also in the Guinness Book of World records at some stage.
And he's a master of just about every style of drumming there is.

I'd like to see ANY drummer from ANY form of music try and touch what he does.

Well then listen to ANY decent jazz drummer. Lenny White for example is amazing, and unbelievably fast... or Billy Cobham. I'll try and get some Hellhammer, and check it out. I'll tell you what I think...

Shiminay

Speaking of Drumers - Jimmy Chamberlain - 'nuff said.

Jazz trained. Watch him play - it's all in the wrists - very little upper arm movement. Speed, skill, precision - NYOM.

Anyway, here's my thoughts on te whole thing...

I listn to ALL sorts of music (with the exceptions of country and western as I find it makes me want to kill).

I love all sorts of music (from Metal to Classical, to Dance to Trad). If I hear a song I like, that's it - I like it. I care not for it's genre - why do people get so caught up in genres?

Listen to it. If you like it, try listening to some similar stuff.

That's it! That's the secret to enjoying music people - it's that easy

bombidol

Im kinda lika that, if its a decent tune then maybe itll get a second listen, but everyone has a different idea of what a decent tune sounds like, and the last thing you want to end up like is some teeny bopper gimp, who listens to "Any Thing Thats Good" personally i only listen to one or two genres of music and thats it , if i hear a decent tune thats out of the type of stuff i listen to well then ill just say its decent for the type of music it is.


BomB

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by Dr. Loon

Well then listen to ANY decent jazz drummer. Lenny White for example is amazing, and unbelievably fast... or Billy Cobham. I'll try and get some Hellhammer, and check it out. I'll tell you what I think...

Well, there's also a band called Hellhammer, so dont get that by mistake.

But I've listened to a number of jazz drummers before.
Buddy Rich and so on.
I've actualy know a Jazz drummer who had been playing drums for over 14 years, and plays with many different bands in the US.
I gave him a listen to some Dimmu Borgir once. To which he said, "I could never hope to accomplish what some of those speed metal drummers can do. That is seriously impressive."

Bottle_of_Smoke

id like to hear a change of the term Metal to, um, Brass. Its a metal, but one that is easily shaped and can conform to most shapes

Marvellous!

Dagon

It's been a while since I've been here but anyway...

What can I say? It's all in the eye of the beholder my friends, simple as that. I've done classical piano for 8 years, played cello in an orchestra and also play guitar and bass.

Yet I still mostly find myself listening to, and returning to my first love (in terms of being blown away by a modern form of music) - Heavy Metal. Be it neo-classical HM, progressive HM, melodic power HM, syphonic epic Power Metal (about warriors and dragons and other D&D type stuff, of course), even some of the more extreme forms like Black/Death.

There is no "new thing" in any form of music in realistic terms, yet I don't believe the new albums (yes, new) that I've bought this year are somehow stale or part of a cycle. Take for example the new Vision Divine album - sounds modern but with the odd nod to classic stuff like Iron Maiden, Dream Theatre, Priest, Helloween, as well as a cutting edge production and very complex keyboard & guitar solos. Impressive. And the vocalist sounds passionate and powerful (yep, he sings melodic, not screaming).

As for Dance... well I may not be an expert, but I think a lot of it sounds the same, and it's somewhat unoriginal (to me). There are mixes, and re-mixes of pre-written tunes all over the place. And even at that, a DJ can still steal from another with ease. And it's been going on for years (is there much evolution here)? Not possible if you're a Metal guitarist (it took me years to become confident on the fretboard, and now I'm trying to overcome the next stage - sweep picking).

And those "old school metallers" who are disillusioned with all the nu-metal around - pull your finger out of your arse and seek what you love - Heavy Metal!! There are LOADS of excellent, and NEW(not nu) "proper/True" Metal bands in europe/US, but you have to use your imagination (and the internet) a bit to find them. Note: Many of them have new albums that are better than anything Iron Maiden/Metallica/Slayer has done in the last 10 years - so prepare to be blown away!!!!

And I think it's evolving, slowly but without any loss in quality, and without sacrificing musicianship for baggy trousers and piercings...

Thats my tuppence worth.

danbert

Well said!!!

cournioni

Indeed! well said Dagon... would you consider Black Label Society and In Flames new bands?

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by Dagon
And those "old school metallers" who are disillusioned with all the nu-metal around - pull your finger out of your arse and seek what you love - Heavy Metal!! There are LOADS of excellent, and NEW(not nu) "proper/True" Metal bands in europe/US, but you have to use your imagination (and the internet) a bit to find them. Note: Many of them have new albums that are better than anything Iron Maiden/Metallica/Slayer has done in the last 10 years - so prepare to be blown away!!!!

Quite my sentiments.

Iced Earth are doing some fantastic things these days. Have you the Horror Show album?
Definetly better than anything Iron Maiden have done recently.

And Matt Barlow is a fantastic vocalist.

Originally posted by Rolo Tomasi

Point 1.Where in my post did I refer to Aphex Twin as Dance? Making stuff up for the sake of a post?

Second Point: How is this a pointless arguement? This debate had almost been dragged down to the level of a slagging match based on "my music requires way more talent and skill than yours."

On point 1. You completely misunderstand me altogether.
I never said you refered to Aphex Twin as Dance. But I was making a point about the genres. And that they aren't a dance act, that some people would call them.

On Point 2: Who's making stuff up for the sake of a post now?
I wasn't slagging about which requires more skill. Danbert had said about things being rehashed, and I was naming bands that are doing some interesting, and original things.
And I said that his arguement was based very much on popularity in music, rather than anything else.

pugwall

Why do trashers hang around temple bar? I dont have a problem with it I just want to know why there? Why is temple bar ?synominous? with trashers?

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by pugwall
Why do trashers hang around temple bar? I dont have a problem with it I just want to know why there? Why is temple bar ?synominous? with trashers?

Trashers? Is that what they're called now? I just say nu-metal kids... Tell it as it is, so to speak.
The just hang around for the sake of it, meet people who're into the same music. About 99% of 'em are to young to go to any clubs or anything, so I suppose it's just what they do. Why Temple Bar? Good a place as any, I'd say. No big master plan behind it or anything.

Robbo

Why, oh why, do only metalheads go to great lengths to prove how diverse and varied the music they listen to is? Is this some anti-persecution device?

Most other ppl seem to just get on with it...

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by Robbo
Why, oh why, do only metalheads go to great lengths to prove how diverse and varied the music they listen to is? Is this some anti-persecution device?

Most other ppl seem to just get on with it...

:rolleyes:

Give it up already Robbo.
This is a discussion about metal ffs!

You really do just love to pounce when you hear the word "Metal" dont you?
Or if someone says something like "Neo-Classical Doom Metal" you cry out!

Is it hard to beleive that someone who'd listen to metal would listen to something else?

I'm listening to Placebo right now.
Was listening to some Buddy Rich earlier.