How do you vote?

Typedef

Aspro:
Oh, and to add to Victor's bit. I wouldn't just concentrate on how the money was spent but also on how it was created - a well educated, low wage workforce, working long hours and contributing to 87% of tax revenue while the corporate sector only paid 10% (the lowest rate in the whole EU).

Couldn't agree more, the fact is that any affluence the Irish people have comes from damn hard work, they put in the hours for multi-national companies who take advantage of the cheap and extremely adept workforce to make mega bucks. These multinationals don't come to this country to be nice to us, or to 'find their Irish roots :rolleyes: ', but to make money off of us, they don't come to give handouts, they come because it is in their own self interest end of story.

Sure some people seem to have congenital inferiority complexs that say if someone Irish has money that it comes from the benovalence of another nation, but this is simply not the case, if the Irish have become affluent it is because we have fought tooth and nail for it, to suggest otherwise is to pander to your own sense of inferiority. Irish people have built a nation and economic miracle for ourselves, there's no reason to pretend otherwise, let's not be modest our affluence is of our own design and we (Irish) should be proud of it.

Victor

Originally posted by Typedef
Sure some people seem to have congenital inferiority complexs that say if someone Irish has money that it comes from the benovalence of another nation, but this is simply not the case, if the Irish have become affluent it is because we have fought tooth and nail for it, to suggest otherwise is to pander to your own sense of inferiority. Irish people have built a nation and economic miracle for ourselves, there's no reason to pretend otherwise, let's not be modest our affluence is of our own design and we (Irish) should be proud of it.

Well to be fair, some others did help (even if out of common self-interest).

smiles

Originally posted by Victor
I understand Liam Lawlor did it recently!

He was standing in the balance that could have thrown the majority either way.

Originally posted by Victor
I don't think you can congratulate one minister for the work of a nation.

I'm not, i'm simply pointing out that that was the very first step towards creating the economic climate (and i did say in my opinion), if the Irish weren't as educated as we are now then we would never have experienced this boom, again in my opinion and that of a lot of experts.

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Victor

Originally posted by smiles
He was standing in the balance that could have thrown the majority either way.

It was so unaminous (about 150+:1), that the didn't actually need to vote.

Originally posted by smiles
I'm not, i'm simply pointing out that that was the very first step towards creating the economic climate (and i did say in my opinion), if the Irish weren't as educated as we are now then we would never have experienced this boom, again in my opinion and that of a lot of experts.

Well, maybe its my opinion, that if they weren't born in the first place they couldn't have been educated. So are their Daddies responsible for getting 'romantic' with Mummy?

smiles

Originally posted by Typedef
Couldn't agree more, the fact is that any affluence the Irish people have comes from damn hard work, they put in the hours for multi-national companies who take advantage of the cheap and extremely adept workforce to make mega bucks. These multinationals don't come to this country to be nice to us, or to 'find their Irish roots :rolleyes: ', but to make money off of us, they don't come to give handouts, they come because it is in their own self interest end of story.

Of course they do, self-interest in the motivating factor for all even vaguely capitalist orintated economy. But their investment is an injection into the economy, the jobs they create mean this "extremely adept workforce" has an income. No one opperates completely out of social interest, that is the ideal, and the failure to do this is why most socialist economies experience such problems.

Originally posted by Typedef
Sure some people seem to have congenital inferiority complexs that say if someone Irish has money that it comes from the benovalence of another nation, but this is simply not the case, if the Irish have become affluent it is because we have fought tooth and nail for it, to suggest otherwise is to pander to your own sense of inferiority. Irish people have built a nation and economic miracle for ourselves, there's no reason to pretend otherwise, let's not be modest our affluence is of our own design and we (Irish) should be proud of it.

No economy is self-sufficiant these days, and you cannot honestly say that if no international companies had invested in Ireland that we would be where we are now.

Ireland: The Celtic Tiger and the Social Contrick
http://www.marxist.com/Europe/celtic_tiger601.html

[...]

I have no idea what effort the bosses made but the figures quoted above demonstrate that for all their hard work the workers share has been consistently falling throughout the unprecedented boom in the Irish economy over the last decade.

[...]

Certainly the social contract has been the cover behind which the bosses have sought to increase their profits by increasing productivity, that is changing working conditions to make us all work harder and longer.

[...]


Break the social Con Trick
For a 32 hour week without loss of pay
For Militant trade union action
For a Socialist United Ireland.

I suggest everyone reads it... it is absolutely hilarious some of the bluff inflamatory arguments they make, or else you could just listen to Typedef... :P

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Ri-ra

Originally posted by smiles


I suggest everyone reads it... it is absolutely hilarious some of the bluff inflamatory arguments they make, or else you could just listen to Typedef... :P

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*sounds of breaking glass*

smiles

Originally posted by Victor
It was so unaminous (about 150+:1), that the didn't actually need to vote.

Which motion are you talking about because i dont know any where that happened?

Originally posted by Victor

Well, maybe its my opinion, that if they weren't born in the first place they couldn't have been educated. So are their Daddies responsible for getting 'romantic' with Mummy?

right.... (er, what?) So your saying because people are born they caused the Celtic Tiger? right.... when why hasnt it happened in every other country?

Yes there are boom cycles, and every country experiences them periodically, but i'm talking about the fact this was such a huge boom, you dont honestly think that there were no other factors causing the celic tiger other than people were born?

Doesnt the fact that a huge amount of the goods produced in Ireland were exported (first Balance of Payments deficit in years) mean that it wasnt just Irish peoples consumption (from being born) that fueled it?

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Victor

Deputy rejects charges and ignores call to resign seat

Typedef

Well in fact as the USSR, China, North Korea are not in fact true Marxist countries but instead pretty repressive (not really in keeping with the basic notions of communism, equality and collective responsibility and action) as opposed to being participatory .

Certainly the social contract has been the cover behind which the bosses have sought to increase their profits by increasing productivity, that is changing working conditions to make us all work harder and longer.

This is a bit out of context, some interesting facts about the new breed of puritanical capitalism that is sweeping the globe is for example the south of Mexico, where the government through 'terrorist' proxy is in effect cleansing 'native' people to make way for industrial farms and oil explorations, true the government of this country has not done anything similar to my knowledge but in a wider sense the adage of social exclusion that marxism sought to redress is aptly exponenciated by the above quote.

My point is that human nature negates the system of economic mechisma here. In 'Communist' states there is a huge divide between rich and poor (thus these are not true marxist states) and in capitalist state the same rings true. My point, human society reminds me of the book 1984 in so many ways every time I take the time to give a small thought to it, each 'side' espouses it's own benavolence and derides that of it's opponent, but in the end most end up mirroring their enemies in more ways then they differ from them.

What is voting but the artifice of the totalitarian?

smiles

Originally posted by Typedef

[rant on communism]

My point is that human nature negates the system of economic mechisma here. In 'Communist' states there is a huge divide between rich and poor (thus these are not true marxist states) and in capitalist state the same rings true. My point, human society reminds me of the book 1984 in so many ways every time I take the time to give a small thought to it, each 'side' espouses it's own benavolence and derides that of it's opponent, but in the end most end up mirroring their enemies in more ways then they differ from them.

oh there's the point. or... how does this link to the topic? :P

You're right there are big gaps between the rich and the poor, but there are attempts to change that, that is why there is never *complete* capitalism, all mixed economies try to bring the level of the poor up. However communism/socialism (not the same i know, but for this policy they're damn similar), they seem to want to bring everyone *down* to the same level, so there will always be discomfort. [now i refuse to go any more off topic ]

Originally posted by Typedef
What is voting but the artifice of the totalitarian?

eh, voting is the _opposite_ of totalitarianism.... its to allow everyone to have a say, as opposed to totalitarianism where the dictator or other decides everything....

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smiles

Originally posted by Victor
Deputy rejects charges and ignores call to resign seat

and the link still doesnt work....


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Victor

Fintan O'Tooles article:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/newsfeatures/2000/0408/newsfea1.htm

Victor

Originally posted by smiles
Originally posted by Victor
Deputy rejects charges and ignores call to resign seat
and the link still doesnt work....

Fixed. What do you mean "still"

smiles

Originally posted by Victor
quote:

---

Originally posted by smiles
One person cannot turn down a Dail decision if the majority have voted in favour of it. It isn't technically possible (or if i am wrong, please show me some _proof_ of this).

---

I understand Liam Lawlor did it recently!

Can I quote your article?

a Dáil motion that "deplored" his conduct, found his continued membership to be "untenable" and sought his voluntary resignation.

He didn't turn down a decision, they did not kick him out. He was asked to resign and he refused. Simple as that!

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