Do you agree with Michael McDowell's recent attack on Sinn Féin?

ReefBreak

What's the motto going to be for the PD's
"Sure we rip defraud the state with inappropiate use of state aircraft, but hey we weren't involved in the troubles up north"? Governmental material there huh?

Jeez Typedef, at least find some criticism that's more substantial than a dead story from a month ago. A free helicopter ride versus a terrorist campaign. Which is worse?

Typedef

PD Logic: "Im not a 'Terrorist' elect me, rumours of my corruption are months old"

Ri-ra

I'm holier than the lot of ye in this thread... get to f u c k to one side.

I'm regurgitating what I heard on a D4 tv/ radio programme...


Good to see Irish politics hasn't changed an iota.

Boston

Originally posted by smiles


could you actually see people trying to instate that here? there would be absolute havok.

<< Fio >>

Why not, i can remember when paye was up around that level

but it would require majopr administration reforms so i wouldnt advise it in the current climate

Boston

Bard back into your box

Hahahaha... what a complete and utter load of bollocks. That would NEVER work here!

Who said it would, i merely stated id like it if it would more the way it was ment to. but we are nowhere near the level of political accountability that would be required for such a system.

er... hate to break this to you, but eircom ISN'T state owned...

Not what i was saying, i was merely giving eircom as an example of what id have a state owned company

So basically what your saying ReefBreak is you would like sinn fenn to renounce the ira, but how can they do it in the south and not do it in the north? so basically the ira would have no political wing, and it is the political wing that gets the ira to the peace table and keeps them there.

What you asking would be impostible for them to do for at least 10 years imho, without causign a return to the troubles, so therefore is it fair to put that precondition on them?

ReefBreak

Desie O'Malley was in Fianna Fial at that stage and do you mean to tell me that as one of the more senior members of Fianna Fial at that stage he and Mary Harney had no knowledege of the gun running?

No offence, em, "pal", but you're really scraping the bottom of the left-wing barrel there with that statement. Was Mary Harney a senior member of FF at the start of the 70s? Is she really THAT old? Dessie O'Malley had to move himself and his family to a new house every two months during the 70s. He also carried a revolver with him at all times in case the Ra tried to murder him. He did this because he took a hard line against terrorists by setting up the Special Criminal Court as Min. for Justice and putting heaps of them behind bars. This is something that the Labour party would never have dreamed of doing in the 70s given their virtual silence condoning of the terrorist campaign during that period.

Anti-corruption and a stronger stand against terrorists were some of the reasons for the founding of the PDs in the first place.

gandalf

Man there has been a load of tripe written here since I looked at this thread yesterday.

Point 1.

There is only one Army in the Republic. If you are linked with another organisation claiming to be an Army of Ireland, then you should stand a snowball in hells chance of getting into Government full stop. Any sane minded person would agree with this.

Point 2.

There is an election coming up and yes it will be fought on negative grounds. McDowells comments and Fine Gaels poster campaign already confirm this. Infact expect it to get alot nastier coming closer to whatever date Emperor Bertie sets.

Point 3.

There is a bigger chance of bloodshed on the streets of the Republic if the taxation level is raised to 60% than if Sinn Fein and their little Army council friends see their votes been ignored by the majority down here. People care more about what money they have in their pockets than a united Ireland in my experience. Maybe you should read what you post Boston before you hit the submit button in future.

The basic fact is that down here any party in Government has access to details regarding our Justice and Security services, whereas in the North I don't believe the NA has access to these areas. It is basic common sense that a party who has dubious alligiances not be allowed access to information/knowledge of our Justice or Security collateral. If you disagree with this you had better make it a good argument.

Gandalf.

Boston

I know, ive allready said twice that 60% taxation wouldnt work here, for the simple reason it would be squandered for the most part in ineffective in the rest.

You should probably go read the topic before you put your foot in it.

As for the Justice and Security issue's, that shouldnt be a problem, unless they actually get into goverment.

It a rock and a hard place, you refuse to allow sinn fein to stand for election then your going to have alot of pissed of people, and run the risk for being compared to the british ragime in the 70s in the norths, thereby unintentionaly increasing support for "murders" through making sinn fein out to be the innocent little party and those against them as immoral unjust organistation.

The best thing that could happen to sinn fein here is for them to be banned, It worked wonders when they were baned from taking offices in the english parliment. tell people they cant do something, or vote for somebody and they become more determined to do so.

Ps im aware they refused to take their seats anyway.

NeRb666

Zzzzz

Thanks but no thanks, Mr Mc Dowell, I'm more than capable of making up my own mind on this, and most other matters. Get back to your little cloud (aka cuckoo land), and don't worry, you still have the AG job to go back to when you're humiliated in the election.

Typedef

Now now, just because he can't think of any scapegoat other than Sinn Fein to make himself seem laudable beside doesn't mean he doesn't have any good policies, it just means he thinks he will have better luck getting votes by denegrating/slurring the competition than espousing himself.
I might agree with aspects of what the man said, here is the but, but it's totally irrelevant to what he should be campaigning on. He should be saying "vote for me because I believe in X and Y and I will do Q and R" rather than saying "vote for me, because my opponents are loosers". No I'm sorry people have to make an argument that at least tries to put forward their ideals before I will vote for said person and really it just shows how little regard the man has for the intellect of the voter that he thinks that simply slurring his candidates will win him votes, you want my vote tell me how your policies will improve my life and the wellbeing of the state, I am perfectly capable of making up my own mind on the merits or otherwise of your opponents thank you very much. All this sort of mud slinging does is help me formulate opinions on you Mr McDowell. Shall I share? Why not?

I think your policies are so elitist and would be so unpopular that instead of actually arguing their merits you would rather get on the TV arguing the flaws in other people's argument. The logic seems to be "I'm the best of a bad bunch". Well sorry Mr McDowell that just doesn't cut it for me. Tell me will the PD's be supporting more disasterous privitisations like that of eircom? Will the PD's be asking Irish people to revote on the Nice treaty, a treaty the PD's opposed at European level? Will the PD's continue to scream murder at politicians in other parties for corruption while tertly and quickly "forgetting" about their own transgressions? Sure market economics are great, but will the PD's be supporting the creation of any more mega monopolies that are not obliged to provide the services their semi-state progenitors were?

Do tell.

gandalf

Originally posted by Boston


Id like the socialist taxation system of france, where you pay 60% or about of your income,

Boston you did post this didn't you and as for reading this topic I did.

With regard to the Security & Justice comments I was merely showing that the "well they are in the North" commentators that they cannot be equally applied down here.

Gandalf.

Boston

id prefer it yes, id also prefer two 6 foot, sex maniacs that like to try new things, but somehow I don't think it would work out in the long run

As for " their in the north" they have to be in the north for their to be peace, and they have to be assoiciated in some part with the the ira up there to be me effective in keeping peace.

its the one party so lets not pretend they can do something in the south without effecting how they do things in the north

NeRb666

Gene Kerrigan wrote an interesting (and funny) article on Mr Mc Dool (as he is know known) in todays' Sunday Indo

Von

Originally posted by Boston
Id like the socialist taxation system of france, where you pay 60% or about of your income, but you can actually see where its going

The top rate of tax in France is 52% so I dunno where you got 60% from.

Boston

seem more and more people that are two stupid to read actually what i said,

Victor

Originally posted by Bard
Isn't it also a pre-condition of running for government (getting onto the ballot paper in the first place) that you don't have a prior prison sentence?

No, I think only that you are not currently a prisoner, but I'm not even sure about that. Certainly bankrupt people aren't allowed.

Boston

as far as i know, if you have the right to vote, you have the right to run for election, since prisoners cant vote, they cant run.

Now there may be something that if your currently under going an investigation then you cant stand, as you may be imprisioned during your term, but dont quote me on that

Victor

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Jeez Typedef, at least find some criticism that's more substantial than a dead story from a month ago. A free helicopter ride ...

Nice helicopter

Originally posted by Typedef
... I didn't notice them complaining about getting into government with Fianna Fial who two leaders back ie(C.J. Haughey's era) were supplying arms to the Northern Republicans.

He was not convicted

Originally posted by Typedef
Desie O'Malley was in Fianna Fial at that stage and do you mean to tell me that as one of the more senior members of Fianna Fial at that stage he and Mary Harney had no knowledege of the gun running?

Mary Harney (b. 1953) was 17 at the time (1970). And Dessie O'Malley is no fan of CJH.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
This is something that the Labour party would never have dreamed of doing in the 70s given their virtual silence condoning of the terrorist campaign during that period.

I think this is a grossly unfair comment and probably an outright lie.

Originally posted by Boston
its the one party so lets not pretend they can do something in the south without effecting how they do things in the north

Well, and I try to twist your words here, SF have always insisted that the IRA is a separate organisation, despite Gerry Kelly acknowledging what the dogs in the street know (that SF and the IRA are not independant). SF have gained in local elections and initiated their participation in the peace process and were rewarded. They have gained in Regional Elections (NI Forum and NI Assembly) and cemented their participation in the peace process and were rewarded. Before they enter goverment (bear with me, see below), they need to gain in national elections and abandon violence altogether.

Originally posted by Boston
as far as i know, if you have the right to vote, you have the right to run for election, since prisoners cant vote, they cant run.

Well, there was a challenge before Nice by a prisoner, but he was told "sod off, it's too late, you should have asked earlier". But the judge didn't say that they have no right to vote. It is their right, just not one they can exercise (by virtue of being a prisoner), that the legislation covering special voting classes could have covered them, but doesn't, was the judge point. The constiturion leaves it to legislation.

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND
Article 16
1° Every citizen without distinction of sex who has reached the age of twenty-one years, and who is not placed under disability or incapacity by this Constitution or by law, shall be eligible for membership of Dáil Éireann.

2° i All citizens, and
ii such other persons in the State as may be determined by law,

without distinction of sex who have reached the age of eighteen years who are not disqualified by law and comply with the provisions of the law relating to the election of members of Dáil Éireann, shall have the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann.

Originally posted by Boston
Now there may be something that if your currently under going an investigation then you cant stand, as you may be imprisioned during your term, but dont quote me on that

Never heard of anything like this (or are you trolling?). Innocent until proven guilty? And while I voted yes in the poll, I think that SF do have a general right to run for election, legally. And practically, they must take part in politics (in particular in Stormont) to represent their point of view. Morally there are problems with them having a foot in both camps (democracy and violence), I think is may have been McDowell's point. I don't think he demanded that their seats and votes be taken from them.

Victor

Originally posted by gandalf
The basic fact is that down here any party in Government has access to details regarding our Justice and Security services, whereas in the North I don't believe the NA has access to these areas. It is basic common sense that a party who has dubious alligiances not be allowed access to information/knowledge of our Justice or Security collateral. If you disagree with this you had better make it a good argument.

Substantially, security matters still rest with the Secretary of State and his ministers and advisors. The only regional input into security is through the Policing Board, which SF declined to join.

Boston

tell me do you fall down alot? i said not to quote me on that.. I heard it somewhere and ive yet to see an exampel of were that is contradicted.


McDowell didnt demand that, because he would look like a fool doing so, im sure he would be happy if it happened though.

the agrument is mute, since sinn fein cannot cut its ties with the ira at this point (and only a fool would see that as a good thing) they cannot be rationaly asked to do so

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
tell me do you fall down alot?

No, but I get delusional, dizzy and forgetful. Do these count?

Originally posted by Boston
i said not to quote me on that.. I heard it somewhere and ive yet to see an exampel of were that is contradicted.

Sorry, I didn't notice that bit.

Originally posted by Boston
McDowell didnt demand that, because he would look like a fool doing so, im sure he would be happy if it happened though.

Perhaps you are putting the wrong words in the man's mouth. Any politican will use any perceived advantage against his opponents.

Originally posted by Boston
the agrument is mute, since sinn fein cannot cut its ties with the ira at this point (and only a fool would see that as a good thing) they cannot be rationaly asked to do so

In a real-politik basis, no they can't cut that link. But at the same time they need to learn that rights bring responsibilites (much as you would teach a six year old). Privilege (sitting in national government) needs to be earned, it is not free. It would be improper to let Sinn Fein to magically be allowed sit at the 'big table' if they still wearing nappies and / or bullying people in the school yard. They need to realise that while the evil Siamese twin is there, they won't be politically acceptable. The evil one needs to die and that will take time.

Boston

If there wasnt a cease fire, i might agree.

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
If there wasnt a cease fire, i might agree.

So we thank people for not killing people? I thought it was a basic part of society that you don't kill people. It does not merit particular reward.

Von

Originally posted by Boston
seem more and more people that are two stupid to read actually what i said,

Ehhh wha'? You said people in france pay about 60% income tax. That's totally wrong.

Victor

Originally posted by Von
Ehhh wha'? You said people in france pay about 60% income tax. That's totally wrong.

I think Boston's point was he would be willing to pay more it he knew where it was going.

Boston

Notice the words like and about in what i say, ive learnt to use them here because there is allways someone who tries to uses the letter of what is said to defeat the spirit of what is said.

So no i never said france pays 60% income taxs.

Victor, so we should continue to punish people indefinitly even though that would have an adverse effect

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
Victor, so we should continue to punish people indefinitly even though that would have an adverse effect

No, I'm not saying that. What I saying is that SF need to pay their dues, earn the positions they seek (as every other party has had to do) - not "oh, the IRA hasn't killed anyone in a couple of weeks /months, now let us run the country".

Boston

they have shown they are commithed to peacefull means to achieve their aims.

Victor

Article on what was actually said:

McDowell warns voters against SF
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2002/0222/293102582HM7MCDOWELL.html

Originally posted by Boston
they have shown they are commithed to peacefull means to achieve their aims.

Like the peaceful incident where they are accused of shooting someone the other day in Castlewellan or the barman they exiled from the North?

Boston

In any war, there is a time for fighting and a time for talking.
i believe that they, for the part have realized that talkign is the way forward. but dont forget, that there are 3 sides to this war and one of them are not on cease fire, in any way shape or form