Socialism in Ireland

The Corinthian

Originally posted by potlatch
Those characteristics included racism, the glorification of violence, masculine power and war, cultural nostalgia, imperialism and a focus on ritualism.

Racism was a particularly German phenomena (relatively speaking, even the Nazis did not have a monopoly on it) and I’ve already refuted it, you’ve brought nothing new to the argument.

The emphasis on war as a proof of nationhood and the over reliance upon the dictator or leader were certainly major flaws, however.

In relation to this debate, another central feature of fascism was the paranoid hatred of socialism and communism.

Not limited to fascism, during that period – or after, for that matter: McCarthyism being a case in point.

Communism has always been put forward as a kind of democracy and the central word of communism is 'liberation.

Brought about through violent revolution and class war perchance?

Always through this was the golden thread of democracy, justice and equality.

Thread is an accurate description, although I’d replace golden with tenuous.

Fascism simply said no to democracy, it said no to equality and it said no to fairness. It said yes to racism, it said yes to violence, it said yes to war. Fascism openly rejected all democracies in favour of tyranny, fear and oppression.

Fascism simply said no to liberal democracy, as did Communism. As for fairness that depends upon how you define that – should fairness be based on merit? That’s one of the biggest ideological differences between Fascism and Communism.

As for your last line, that’s a good description of pretty much all Communist regimes.

ReefBreak

Socialism is a drain on the human spirit

I'd agree with that somewhat. What's the point in starting a business, creating jobs and working hard with the intent of making a big wad of cash so you can buy a nice gaff, when the socialists are going to turn around and say, "Sorry pal, we know you've worked hard for your cash, but there's people in this country that either don't like working or aren't as good as you. You'll have to give them loads of you're money."

I'd agree, a simplistic analysis. But it stands to reason - in my opinion socialism is certainly a drain on the enterprising human spirit.

Boston

that post doesnt include how many died in the camps

there nobody here that gets in my face as much as you do


And culled is the most apropriate word for what happened.

and you contradict yourself, you spent all this time telling me jew isnt a race yet call me a racist. the last refuse for the stupid and retarded.

"o you, your nothing but a racist" or " your nothing but an abortionist"

DadaKopf

Originally posted by ReefBreak

I'd agree with that somewhat. What's the point in starting a business, creating jobs and working hard with the intent of making a big wad of cash so you can buy a nice gaff, when the socialists are going to turn around and say, "Sorry pal, we know you've worked hard for your cash, but there's people in this country that either don't like working or aren't as good as you. You'll have to give them loads of you're money."

I'd agree, a simplistic analysis. But it stands to reason - in my opinion socialism is certainly a drain on the enterprising human spirit.

Let's assume that capitalism and socialism are divergent ideologies and let's assume they're both responsible grief and suffering in the world. The question we should be focusing on is: is there an alternative?

Can we, perhaps, begin discussing that instead of insulting each other and getting further off topic?

Sand

first you little dip**** it spelled culled not killed, if you dont know what culled means go read a ****ing book.

I refer you to the "Keep it Civil" thread.

Sand

I would be interested in hearing of an workable alternative to capitalism that offers the same reward for individual enterprise and self advancement while at the same time keeping the socialist happy.

Boston

The guy been riding my back for awhile, he only posted here to annoy me.

Celt

Originally posted by Boston
that post doesnt include how many died in the camps

East & CentralEurope 4,300,000 to 5,800,000 Jews died as well as a similar number of slaws.

I wonder how they died.....

there nobody here that gets in my face as much as you do

I'm truly happy for you.

And culled is the most apropriate word for what happened.

"To remove rejected members or parts from (a herd, for example).

n.
Something picked out from others, especially something rejected because of inferior quality."
Yes it certainly is the most appropiate word!(If your a german nazi that is)

and you contradict yourself, you spent all this time telling me jew isnt a race yet call me a racist.

"racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist] "
Please read what I said, I asked was I too take the comment as racist remark.
Nothing about you being a racist...

the last refuse for the stupid and retarded.

"o you, your nothing but a racist" or " your nothing but an abortionist"

Cool, what does that have to do with me since I did or said neither?

Celt

Originally posted by Sand
I would be interested in hearing of an workable alternative to capitalism that offers the same reward for individual enterprise and self advancement while at the same time keeping the socialist happy.

That's the problem with capitalism, it's the only way that seems to work although most(?) people agree that it is a bad system.

Boston

no you just imply someones a racist because your a coward

they were culled, because the people doing the killing viewed it as such.

Those figures still dont have the number of german jews killed. which is what im talking about

see the problem with using the word killed over culled is it gives no impression of the systematic way in which the Nazi's went about purging all Jew influences from their sociality. they weren't simply killed they were eradicated. So culled is, imo (which I don't need to justify to you) culled is the most appropriate word

Boston

ill post what i want, you dont like that, go hang yourself

Sand

Exactly Celt. Any "alternative" , or third way as Tony Blair might describe it is basically capitalism with some socialist bells and whistles on. Which makes no one happy as youve got a system which encourages people to help themselves while at the same time telling them its okay if they dont want to.

The problem is that capitalism seems quite heartless to some. If youve got a good education, work hard and are downright lucky at times then your fine. If youre not you can fall hard. Socialism on the other hand is basically to my mind state run charity. It literally wants to take care of everybody but it fails to recognise the much maligned corporations provide the money they need to do so. They literally have to use a system they reject to provide the cash for their own system.

Free trade and globalisation works. At the same time it weakens the position of socialism. I read Kleins No Logo as regards the MNCs in asia and their contracted factories. Nike doesnt care where it gets its product from, only the cost matters - thats fair enough, when we go shopping were not too bothered which shop we go to as long as its cheap. So if some contracted facotry raises costs by , say, paying its workers more and granting better conditions and passes these costs on to Nike then Nike will simply contract another factory instead.

Theres not a huge solution to that - One possibility might be for some "respected" institute (Maybe the UN, everyone seems to love them) to visit and accredit these factories. That would hopefully lead to some (basic) minimum standard for these contracted factories, and at the same time MNCs like Nike could use it as positive PR for their products ("We dont work with no sweatshops!") - any firm which did not go with the accredited firms could be embarrassed.

Oe thing that was said by Alan Greenspan as regards the fall of Enron and the companies which dont actually make anything as described by Klein "Trust and Reputation can vanish overnight. A factory cannot".

Boston

stop posting absolute waffle

ill post what i want, you dont like that, go hang yourself

Celt

Originally posted by Sand

As corporations get larger and larger, what happens to governments?
Do they become there lackeys, become subsumed by them or what?

Every developed country attempts to woo them, every developed country need them...

Boston

Originally posted by Sand
Boston please dont get this thread locked too, just as it gets interesting. If you want to squabble open another thread to do so. As a moderator you should try to act as an example for us all and not get dragged into flames.

i didnt start this and the admins dont seem to give a damn about the fact this guys been taking shots at me for the past month for no reason.

up to a few weeks ago i didnt know who he even was

Sand

Thats the problem isnt it- Corporations are growing to the size where they have more resources than many small countries. This is not a good thing for anyone. Capitalists will tell you that their aspiration is perfect competition and say, Microsofts dominance of the PC OS market is anything but. And socialists dont like corporations in the first place.

I feel governments will still wield a lot of power, but as you say theyre now in competition for MNCs to develop their economies. They will attempt to undercut each other - Id hope that some accreditation will provide some bottom floor which they cannot undercut.

I think the Corporations vs Governments thing is more of a problem for Socialists as theyve always been in favour of the power of the government - whereas others view the government as merely providing services no one else can be entrusted to provide- like defence, law and order and enviromental protection etc etc. Even the above list could be viewed as too much by a small minority- defence after all has been a private enterprise at several times in the past, particualrly in the Renaissance city states of Italy which relied heavily on mercenary units to wage their wars.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Celt
As corporations get larger and larger, what happens to governments?
Do they become there lackeys, become subsumed by them or what?

Quite possibly. Historically goverments controlled the means of production up until recently. Fudalism, being the best example, where the means of production were simply defined as land (recognition of labour or even capital came much later), was both government and monopoly in one.

Looking at the republics of the anchient World, the citizens (voters) were generally those who were also those who owned the means of production. Crassus is a handy example in Rome.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sand
Even the above list could be viewed as too much by a small minority- defence after all has been a private enterprise at several times in the past, particualrly in the Renaissance city states of Italy which relied heavily on mercenary units to wage their wars.

Paid for by the merchant class, who were incidentally also the government (e.g. the De Medici and Sforza families).

Boston

no system is without its flaws, one thing is certain american capitalism is far different to european capitalism.

one question no one asks is, how come all these irish people go to foreign countries and end up running rich and powerfull companies while if they had stayed at home they would have been blocked at every turn.

if you look up the top 500 companies in the world, you will find many have irish directors on their board management. why is this?

is it because capitalism in ireland is just a cover for the rich staying rich and the poor remain poor.

even being a member of the eu hasnt changed this, look at the huge traiffs on car imports in an atemp to protect irish carttels

smiles

Bad Karma off this thread.

Boston from what i've read you really and truly took Celt up the wrong way - i read that "mere million" bit and thought "what a stupid flaming muppet" (you have to realise that saying something like that going to annoy people). It does seem like you jumped down his throat. I see no reason why he posted here "just to annoy you"

No offense to you, i've argued with you before and have no big problems with you, but take a chill pill!

<< Fio >>

Boston

well since this guy seldom posts here and hes been following me around lately taking shots i have to believe hes doing it to annoy me

and yes a mere million or a mere 5 million does it matter, im sick of listening to people bang on about this, what ever number died, it was a small fraction of the numbers that died in just as horifice ways throught out the war. we talking about the germans burning jews alive, what about bomber harris, and all those poor germans he burnt alife, and the british put up statues of the bastard.

but i suppose they are mere germans to you people

smiles

Originally posted by Boston
well since this guy seldom posts here and hes been following me around lately taking shots i have to believe hes doing it to annoy me[/i]

People sometimes see a topic they know something about and reply to it, thats why *i* started posting here, or anywhere. Dont' be so paranoid!

Originally posted by Boston
and yes a mere million or a mere 5 million does it matter, im sick of listening to people bang on about this, what ever number died, it was a small fraction of the numbers that died in just as horifice ways throught out the war. we talking about the germans burning jews alive, what about bomber harris, and all those poor germans he burnt alife, and the british put up statues of the bastard.

but i suppose they are mere germans to you people

The word "mere" in relation to any number of people who have been killed is insulting. And hurtful. No one said anything about "mere germans" So you've heard a point before, IGNORE IT! I mean seriously, express your views without blowing up at people! You could have just posted saying "What about all the other people killed on both sides?"

As for the fact that people celebrate people like Harris?
If you look at any person you know, someone people love them and some people hate them. Someones hero is someone elses murderer. Someones bastard is someone elses son. *shrug* it all depends on what your personal views are.

<< Fio >>

DadaKopf

How about some mod just shuts this thread down eh?

Anyone who wants to take the topic up again can start a new thread.

Sand

Or instead, can the admins *not* close the thread but instead simply delete the abusive posts.

gandalf

Thread closed and some posts deleted because it was decending into drivel.

Gandalf.