Policy of compulsory Irish a spectacular failure for generations

Elmo

I wasnt going to reply to this thread since it annoys me.

I would have like to learned more irish in school then i did.

I have no problem with people doing the leaving cert in Irish and getting extra points for it since many secondary schools are not equiped to deal with all irish speakers and many teachers dont speak Irish themselfs (A maths teacher was from the North in My school and an art teacher was from england, they would of been useless to a person doing the leaving cert through irish) also Not many school books are printed in Irish. Also they only get an extra 10% of what they got in their final exam, if they got 50% they then ended up with 55%, if they got 34% they then got 37.4% which is still a fail.

I gave up french after the junior cert as i felt i was being lead down the same path as Irish i.e know your verbs and s h i t (don't edit that its in the dictionary, and dont be a smartarse and reply to it either).

So my advice is forget about learning to write it and start teaching people to speak it.

Also never found French to be any use as most french people speak english (it is the same attitude that irish people have to irish and it is a bad one)

I am disappointed that gealscoil people dont speak the lanuage to their kids, my dad didn't do it and he had fluent irish, it would have been a great help to me if my dad had spoken irish to me when i was a child. (If you have fluent irish speak it to your kids it won't do them any harm they will be more round indivdulas and they wont be as ingonrant as most irish people)

A foreign exchange student in our school told me that irish was just gribberish, I said to her that her language was just as much gribberish as Irish was to me.

Also Modern English is gribberish according to sheakspear and we're forced to learn him of.

Elmo

And I got to reading the other replies to this tread i just shouldnt have DONE THAT

THE ENGLISH ARE AN IGORANT RACE OF PEOPLE THATS WHY THEY DONT GO AROUND LEARNING OTHER COUNTRIES LANUAGES THEY JUST COME ALONG AND COLINISE A COUNTRY (NOT JUST OURS) AND FORGET THAT PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT TO THEMSELFS.

IF IT IS A BOG LANUAGE, ENGLISH IS AN IGNORANT ONE THAT HAS HAD THE LIVE SUCKED OUT OF IT.

THE ENGLISH THAT WE SPEAK HAS NO RULES OUR STRUCTURE IN COMPARSION TO OTHER LANGUAGE THAT PEOPLE SPEAK, THUS ENGLISH IS THE BASTARDISE LANUAGE.

Elmo

POG MO MOLGLA?


(I HAVE USE THE PHONETIC WAY OF SPELL THAT WORD LOOK IT UP IN A DICTIONARY IF YOU MUST)

DONT DARE EDIT IT EITHER.

Elmo

TA BRON ORM

MAUG- U-LA

SIN E

MAUG-U-LA

Jelvon

I was taught irish from primary right through to the lc, and you know what? see as soon as the lc was over, I begun the short process of forgotting every word of irish I ever learnt. Now french I learnt it for 6 years and you know what I am fluent in it cause I love the language.

For me Irish was a means to a end, I learnt it so I could get points, simple as that and now my reason for learning irish is gone, why should I continue to learn something that has no use to me whatso ever?

As for the gaeltacht, been there done that, had the dreams in irish.. and tbh even the irish you speak out there has english in it

Compulsory Irish in schools is a failure.. in all those years at school (not in the prod primary school, or the christian brothers school for the junior cert, or in the prod secondary school for the leaving cert) nobody instilled in me (or any of my classmates) some kind of desire to learn our native language.

Jelv

Molly

Lil off topic but its something which bugs me quiet a bit :P

Also they only get an extra 10% of what they got in their final exam, if they got 50% they then ended up with 55%, if they got 34% they then got 37.4% which is still a fail

Thats quiet untrue, alot of people were enticed to go to my old school because of this but then once we finished 3rd year the situation was fully explained to us. In fact you recieve 10% of your mark in very few subjects ( History, geography, Biology, Chemistry, Physics) most of the others you'll recieve maybe 3-7% and once you near about B2 territory this bonus stops.

I think all primary schools should be All-Irish as then everybody would be of at least a reasonable standard in Irish.

Elmo

Yes all primary schools should be in Irish and then maybe secondary schools through another european lanugage of your choice (second idea not very fesible but just a thought)

The marking system is like the Honours Maths Situation, Some college and course used to give you extra points for doing honours maths beleive it has stop.

Molly

The honours math points rewards was you got extra points, doing your leaving cert through irish is not like that.

Ja Qian

I have to agree with Elmo the reason Irish is failing in schools is because its been taught the wrong way. We should be taught to speak Irish before we ever have to read or write it. Think about it how did any of us learn English, we picked it up from our parents. They didn't force us to read or write before we could speak.
I also think it should be compulsory in primary school but become a choice in secondary. In Northern Ireland it is now a choice subject in secondary schools and is doing great.

BKtje

I was born in holland and came here when i was 4.
Spent a summer learning English then went to school with my little English and picked up the language to the level of the others within a couple of months.

Im now in 6th year still plodding along at Irish. I had better Irish in primary school than i do now unfortunately. I think it is a beautiful language to listen to but i'd really prefer to be taking French as an extra language then Irish. (am doing german atm) At least with French i would use it sometime.

Irish is a beautiful language but stop cramming it down our throats

Dun

I have to agree that the teaching is a failure - I'm one of those cases of people hating Irish until they'd left school, and then regretting it. I think it is ridiculous teaching literature through a language when it isn't at a near fluent level. I suppose they think that pupils starting secondary school should have all the grammar and vocabulary to start learning literature, but it's usually nowhere near that standard. My standard of Irish dropped when I entered secondary school. It was only when I got into fourth year (5th year in the post-transition year era) that it started to improve bit by bit. I even dug out my old primary school Irish book as a grammar reference. That's another thing - teaching Irish grammar in Irish. If you don't know the grammar, how the heck are you gonna be able to learn it if you can't read it? :rolleyes: As for this bog language theory and those going on about carr = carr and van = veann, have a look at English. More of English is French (or Latin) than Irish is English - language = langage, sentiment = sentiment, grammar = grammaire, the list goes on forever, eternally (éternellement), ceaselessly (sans cesse). I hope this book causes some reform of the way Irish is taught, cause this teenage i-hate-it-cause-i-have-to-do-it attitude can't be justified then

Gael

Good point Dún do Bhéal!
I have an extremely interesting (and thick!) etymological English dictionary, which states that by the end of the medieval period, they estimate that english had borrowed approx. 10,000 words from the french language ALONE("Parliament" being an excellent example, coming from the french "Parlement" from the french "to speak".

And that only refered to the end of the middle ages, not to mention the mass adoption of french words when it was a very fashionable language in the english speaking world during the nineteenth century, such as millieu, cliché.(in terms of literature especially)

That of course doesn't even take into account the thousands of borrowed words from, Latin, Greek, Norse, Italian, IRISH, and a number of words taken from the native languages of places the english conquered like North America, Australia, India etc.

Here's an interesting fact. The irish word for 'Iron' is 'Iarann'. A lot of people would probably presume that a 'bog' language like irish would have borrowed the word from english, but in fact etymologists state that it was borrowed by Old-German FROM the celtic languages of the continent, from which irish was derived.

Altomaximus

Originally posted by Gael
Good point Dún do Bhéal!
I have an extremely interesting (and thick!) etymological English dictionary, which states that by the end of the medieval period, they estimate that english had borrowed approx. 10,000 words from the french language ALONE("Parliament" being an excellent example, coming from the french "Parlement" from the french "to speak".

And that only refered to the end of the middle ages, not to mention the mass adoption of french words when it was a very fashionable language in the english speaking world during the nineteenth century, such as millieu, cliché.(in terms of literature especially)

That of course doesn't even take into account the thousands of borrowed words from, Latin, Greek, Norse, Italian, IRISH, and a number of words taken from the native languages of places the english conquered like North America, Australia, India etc.

Here's an interesting fact. The irish word for 'Iron' is 'Iarann'. A lot of people would probably presume that a 'bog' language like irish would have borrowed the word from english, but in fact etymologists state that it was borrowed by Old-German FROM the celtic languages of the continent, from which irish was derived.

English is a "McDonalds" - a quick and cheap "language". You don't have to worry about our "Le" "La" or "Les", or your "An" or "Na". English has few rules to worry about, in the same way that taking a frozen hamburger out of the fridge and cooking it poses little challenge to the average individual with an IQ over 1.

English comes from a country where the culture is "do it our way" or else. A bastard language made up of German, French, Latin, Irish, Danish, Swedish, and other bits and pieces. While English has been a lubricant on a global basis as an "esperanto" - why should we close all our haute cuisine restaurants just because McDonalds has arrived in the town.

An average five year old can pick up four or five European languages at mother tongue quality in a countrty like Luxembourg. Because they don't have limited choice TV and radio from Chorus and NTL, and aren't exposed to the downmarket Irish education system whose focus remains in a 1920s Ireland - devoid of broadband internet access and a global perspective.

Altomax

Stephen

I am 100% against compulsory teaching of Irish in schools. I had it shoveled down my throat for far too many years. If I had a chance to drop it I would have. But I didn't. No, I was forced to stick with this utterly useless subject that I had no interest in. It had no practical use to me and I would have much rather studied a different subject where I would have stood a chance of getting much better results.

To you people who harp on about "west brits" and other such bullshít, perhaps you should wake up and realise that it is not 1916 any more. Ireland is an english-speaking nation whether you like it or not. Let the people who want to study Irish in school study it, but let those who don't want to do it spend their time on a different subject.

[ Snip - offensive remark removed - Bard ]

As you can see, this is a subject that angers me quite a bit.

Elmo

[ snip! - Elmo, be nice or get out. - Bard ]

DiscoStu

Originally posted by Altomaximus


English is a "McDonalds" - a quick and cheap "language". You don't have to worry about our "Le" "La" or "Les", or your "An" or "Na". English has few rules to worry about, in the same way that taking a frozen hamburger out of the fridge and cooking it poses little challenge to the average individual with an IQ over 1.
Altomax

i would have to disagree with you there. english is one of the most complex languages out there. it contains the most irregular verbs of any language and is quite difficult to learn due to the amount of idioms. Likening it to esperanto is just plain idiotic.

northside english however is. the run on sentences, the exagerated vowel sounds, the fact that if a word is difficult to pronounce just drop the last few syllables..... jaysus wha da fúck duz dah meee-an?

strat

isnt english the statistically the hardest language to learn

Stephen

[snip - Bard]

Xterminator

Calm it down lads.

No need to get personal.


I think that the mandatory teaching of irish makes students hate the language
I know it made me hate it while in school, and just about all my peers hate it.
Thats me, you may be different. Now i'm older, and not worried about passing those exams that seemed so important, i can see a bigger picture.
I'm proud to be irish, and i'm not so insecure that someelse saying im not is going to rile me.

The english language is the language in this country now. FACT.
Thus teaching in english is mandatory, and lets face it, practical.
My job needs me to be able to read and write english. Not Irish.

And most jobs which ask for a level of irish is cosmetic anyway.
So what if your science teacher know irish or not!
Unless they are in a GaelScoil it doesnt really matter (or an irish teacher), and makes it harder for motivated skilled teachers to get the job, and makes the shortage of skilled teachers in Ireland more acute.
Our keeping irish alive is a cultural choice, and im actually happy that it exists, but to in day to day life it is irrelavent.

I think that if it was made a subject choice, and the whole way it is teached was revisited, with emphasis on oral irish, and combined with a look at our culture in general, it could raise the no. of people who leave school with a passion for irish, and with an acceptable level of irish.

Irish has been mandatory for several generations, and it has not produced a generation of irish speaking people. thus yes i agree with the thread title, it has been a spectacular failure for generations.

X

Hellrazer

I would like few thought on this-I have just enrolled my daughter(4.5 years of age )in an all Irish school.The main reason for this is because I do believe that we should be able to speak our own national language.
Ok the method in which Irish is taught in our schools is atrocious-I mean Peig cmon-Jesus I hated that book.
BTW I dont have a word of Irish so Im not posting this as an Irish speaker.But I would like to know if people think would I have a problem with my lack of Irish and my daughter being fluent in The language.The school is running Irish classes for parents but Im not sure about attending.

Saruman

I think that the mandatory teaching of irish makes students hate the language

Well said xterminator..

Bard

Good afternoon. This is your moderator speaking.

Discuss this topic civilly and avoid ignorance or don't discuss it at all. Your choice. I have no qualms whatsoever in snipping out peoples posts when they flout the rules of common courtesy and decency.

That is all.

Elmo

I am sorry Bard i did not relaise that I had use bad lanuage to get my point a cross in my last post.

Please do tell why you the "Thought Police" have sniped my last reply.

Bard

Originally posted by Elmo

Please do tell why you the "Thought Police" have sniped my last reply.

No.

Now drop this 'thought police' bollocks.

Elmo

I did actually start the "Thought police" crap. Stephen did.

Oh and that post is still there.

Please explain your position on my post please.

Saruman

Its simple really the reason Irish fails when most other languages can be taught easily is not so much the fact the teachers are no good.. more so you cant use it!! i mean you can go to france or spain and use it.. you cant do anything in Ireland.. who wants to go to the Gaelteacht and i cant be arsed watching tg4

Elmo

TG4 is actually a very good station, you are missing out. Do you watch TV5.

If you talk to other people in Irish foreigner will not know what you saying, just as i dont have a clue what foreigner are saying when they speak in their own lanuage (but that because i am to lazy to learn another lanuage, i am not very good at irish).

Its really the only pro i can come up with but they what are the pros to speaking any language but to put your point across.

Hellrazer

Speaking about TG4 I find it a brilliant channel-I only wish I could understand it without have the subtitles switched on.Even then Ican still pick up on certain words etc.which have remained with me from when I was in school.
Btw Has no-one any thoughts on my previous post as its something that is playing on my mind.
Richie

Bard

Originally posted by Elmo
I did actually start the "Thought police" crap. Stephen did.

Oh! We're getting into "He started it!" territory are we? I DONT CARE WHO STARTED IT. STOP IT.

Oh and that post is still there.

Yes it is, but the offensive remark has been removed.

Please explain your position on my post please.

What part of "No" don't you understand. Drop it or don't bother posting here. Simple.

seamus

I would think people come out of school hating Irish because, as others say, you were forced to do it. You are forced also to do maths and english, but people rarely hate either of those as much as they hate Irish. My opinion on this is because people can at least see *some* use for english and maths after school, even if you are doing foundation level, but they see absolutely zero use for Irish, which is mostly right. For example, the census asks 2 questions: "Can you speak Irish?" and "How often do you speak Irish?". My answers here will be, "Yes" and "Never", because that's the reality of it. No matter how good you come out of school at Irish, you will use it so rarely, it's negligible, especially if you are a Dubliner, living in Dublin.

My opinion has always been to have it compulsory up until the JC, and then leave it as optional for the LC. I think the uptake would be quite surprising. Many people can do Irish, and are good at it, but are sick of having it forced down their throats. Literature pfft!! I dropped out of Hons LC Irish in November of 6th year because it was eating into work I could have been doing for more 'important' subjects, and I don't regret it one bit. All I did was skim over the stuff we did at JC Hons level, and got an A2 - I would have come out with a D1 maximum if I had stayed in honours. That's far too much of a standard difference.

IMHO, Hons Irish should focus more on advanced vocabulary and comprehension, just like the French Hons course, as opposed to learning poems and stories. People find it hard enough to do literature in English, what makes the dept. think it's gonna be any better with Irish??

Funnily enough, I got on the bus this morning, and there was an all-irish class on the bus (with their teacher), who were speaking to eachother, in extremely good Irish (broken in places of course). The one thing that struck me though, was that they were unbelievably well-behaved. :rolleyes: It could be coincidence, but.......
Was very funny listening to them talk about Eminem, trying to find words for Gangster, Rapper, and Wannabe.

The Irish educational system needs a huge overhaul, just like everything else in this country....... :rolleyes: