Abortion Poll [Who voted]

Biffa Bacon · 06-03-2002 4:22pm

what else whould be introduced, maybe take the right to vote taken away from women?

Why is that the logical extension of my beliefs?

you do realilse you sound like a facist dont you?

You can't even spell fascist, never mind know what one is.

you are one of these monster raving mad looney right wing pro lifers who like to parade around with aborted feteuses hanging from their necks telling us how evil we are for making our own desicions and living our own lives.

No such individuals exist.

Xterminator · 06-03-2002 4:24pm

I'll b voting a big fat NO.

PS .. i have to do this ...

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

I voted Yes.

The reasons that rape is not justification for an abortion are:

a. It still results in the intentional destruction of innocent human life.

b. False claims of rape could be made leading to abortion on demand.

To deal with b) first, you claim it should not be allowed, because masses of women may claim rape, then fool the medical professionals involved, to avail of abortion service, which would be freely accessable if they travelled abroad.

Hmmm. Weak arguement, based on no fact.

a) What about the shreds of innocence left in the rape victim? I suppose youre saying there FU[KED anyway, so what if they have to go through further distress which could be avoided?

I love your whole point of view, and wonder how it would be affected if you had the experiene of being raped, finding you were pregnant, and being in such a state of emotional imbalance that you were suicidal.
I'm sure in such a condition you would understand that poeple who never had and never will experinced your pain know whats best for you based on there personal opinions.

X

Occidental · 06-03-2002 4:30pm

If you vote yes we can go on pretending we don't have a problem and pretend we're still an adorable little Catholic country. The fact that this means thousands of women go to the UK each year for abortions is besides the point and the fact that there are little or no support services for them when they return; well it's illegal here, so they deserve no better.

Think about being raped and the having the seed of the person you most hate in all the world, growing in side you for the next nine months. Lovely isn't it!

Frank Grimes · 06-03-2002 4:33pm

False claims of rape could be made leading to abortion on demand

That's all well and good Biffa Bacon, but what about the women/girls that *have* been raped?

Biffa Bacon · 06-03-2002 4:35pm

Are you saying the same about incest??

Yes, although people should note that whether this referendum is passed or not rape and incest will still not be grounds for an abortion either way.

And what about only certain doctors being legally allowed to perform an abortion when necessary??
Imagine your wife was pregnant and needed medicial assistance immediately. Are you happy with the fact that if she got to one hospitial that the doctor would turn around and say "UhOh, we need to abort this baby now to save your life, but I'm not legally allowed to, so we're going to have to send you to the nearest hospitial that is allowed to, which is an hour away." By then she could be dead. By voting yes you're willing to risk that.
Plus if the doctor in the first hospitial does decide to do what he can to save your wifes life then both he and your wife risk 12 years imprisonment.

No one would be denied treatment or prosecuted in such a situation. That proviso was put in so that there wouldn't be phoney doctors saying "Oh yes, her life is in danger, she'll have to have an abortion".

Bard · 06-03-2002 4:40pm

Originally posted by Occidental
The fact that this means thousands of women go to the UK each year for abortions is besides the point and the fact that there are little or no support services for them when they return; well it's illegal here, so they deserve no better.

Women will be able to go to England to get an abortion regardless of the outcome of this referendum. Abortion (as is practised in the UK) will still be illegal in Ireland regardless of the outcome of this referendum.

Think about being raped and the having the seed of the person you most hate in all the world, growing in side you for the next nine months. Lovely isn't it!

No, it isn't lovely obviously... but where is rape mentioned in this proposed amendment? Voting No will mean no change to the constitution. There is no way you can vote today which will allow abortion for those who have been raped.

Biffa Bacon · 06-03-2002 4:41pm

Originally posted by Xterminator
I'll b voting a big fat NO.

PS .. i have to do this ...

To deal with b) first, you claim it should not be allowed, because masses of women may claim rape, then fool the medical professionals involved, to avail of abortion service, which would be freely accessable if they travelled abroad.

Hmmm. Weak arguement, based on no fact.

a) What about the shreds of innocence left in the rape victim? I suppose youre saying there FU[KED anyway, so what if they have to go through further distress which could be avoided?

I love your whole point of view, and wonder how it would be affected if you had the experiene of being raped, finding you were pregnant, and being in such a state of emotional imbalance that you were suicidal.
I'm sure in such a condition you would understand that poeple who never had and never will experinced your pain know whats best for you based on there personal opinions.

X

To be honest Xterminator, I've just changed my mind. I think you probably should be allowed have an abortion in the case of rape or incest, provided that we could be sure that all such cases were genuine. But also note that abortion on the grounds of rape or incest will still be unconstitutional whichever way this referendum goes.

Biffa Bacon · 06-03-2002 4:43pm

If you vote yes we can go on pretending we don't have a problem and pretend we're still an adorable little Catholic country.

Sum total of people for whom this is a concern in this referendum: 0

Meh · 06-03-2002 4:47pm

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
But also note that abortion on the grounds of rape or incest will still be unconstitutional whichever way this referendum goes.

This is correct. Most of the debate in this thread has been completely irrelevant to today's referendum.

Morpheus · 06-03-2002 4:50pm

if u want to see other peoples views, go to www.ireland.com and do the Irish-times vote.

its currently standing at 74% to 26% in favor of NO's i.e. NOT changing the constitution.

flyz · 06-03-2002 4:57pm

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

Yes, although people should note that whether this referendum is passed or not rape and incest will still not be grounds for an abortion either way.

No one would be denied treatment or prosecuted in such a situation. That proviso was put in so that there wouldn't be phoney doctors saying "Oh yes, her life is in danger, she'll have to have an abortion".

Rape and incest are at the moment grounds for an abortion if there is a risk of suicide. That's what the x-case was about wasn't it?

What the government are proposing is that only certain hospitials will be allowed to perform abortions in order to save the mothers life.
If that leglislation is taken seriously then it will result in denial of treatment and possibly the death of both the mother and the baby if they turn up at the wrong hospital.

Meh · 06-03-2002 5:00pm

Originally posted by flyz
Rape and incest are at the moment grounds for an abortion if there is a risk of suicide.

Rape and incest are not grounds for an abortion. The threat of suicide is grounds for an abortion, no matter what the source of the pregnancy is.

Occidental · 06-03-2002 5:00pm

Women will be able to go to England to get an abortion regardless of the outcome of this referendum. Abortion (as is practised in the UK) will still be illegal in Ireland regardless of the outcome of this referendum.

Yes but they shouldn't have to and a yes vote will make this much harder to achieve in the future. We've been standing on our own two feet for nearly a hundred years now. Isn't it time we started to take ownership of some of our problems rather than exporting them pretending they dont exist.

No, it isn't lovely obviously... but where is rape mentioned in this proposed amendment? Voting No will mean no change to the constitution. There is no way you can vote today which will allow abortion for those who have been raped.

It isn't mentioned in the referendum, but again a yes in the referendum will make amendments to the constitution which will make legal abortion for rape victims even harder to achieve in the future.

Biffa,

This is exactly the churches angle on this and they influence a hell of a lot of people. As long as the abortions aren't conducted in Ireland, the church can go on pretending that it's not happening

Biffa Bacon · 06-03-2002 5:03pm

Biffa,

This is exactly the churches angle on this and they influence a hell of a lot of people. As long as the abortions aren't conducted in Ireland, the church can go on pretending that it's not happening

There is not a single human being in Ireland that pretends it isn't happening. Not one. And I don't understand your problem with the church influencing people.

Bard · 06-03-2002 5:08pm

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

There is not a single human being in Ireland that pretends it isn't happening. Not one.

I don't.

Occidental · 06-03-2002 5:16pm

Biffa

The church has been pretending it isn't happening for the last fifty years. As long as it's not happening in Ireland they can ignore it and that suits them just fine. And yes I do have a problem with the church influencing people. They also told us contraception was a bad and evil thing and their opinion of sex wasn't much better. Then everyone woke up and realised the crap the church had inflicted on their parents and told the church to sod off.

DadaKopf · 06-03-2002 9:11pm

I voted no. My reasons were:

I am pro-choice and I do not believe that the debate should ever be considered closed
The subtext of the amendment and law is one of reactionism against the reality of increased pluralism in Irish society and it contradicts the central tenets of liberal democracy
It is repugnant to the Constitution on the grounds that it removes the right of the President to refer the law & amendment to the Supreme Court (to examine whether a law or amendment is 'repugnant to the Constitution' or not) - this is a vital failsave against bad legislation, which this is
It is repugnant to the constitution because it defies the article which states that the Oireachtas is the only body allowed to make laws for the state
It breaks with the spirit and direction of the Constitution as a dynamic document which changes to meet the needs and wants of society in accordance with the law. It essentially stonewalls any further debate on the problem of abortion (one which will always require constant redefinition). I believe legislation is sufficient to deal with the issue of abortion as far as the state is concerned.

Giblet · 06-03-2002 9:15pm

Originally posted by Bard

It's my absolute right to believe what I believe is right or wrong. Screw compassion - suicide is wrong, - it's selfish, it's cowardly and it's a pathetic way to end a life. Sensitive issue or not, it's better to be cold and clinical with hard facts instead of fudging or fluffying them up for fear of hurting people's feelings. If you're suicidal then get help to get you out of that way of thinking. Claiming to be suicidal is a piss-poor reason for taking the life of an unborn child.

I agree that suicide is a stupid way to end a life, most people who commit suicide nowadays commit suicide for the wrong reasons. There seems to be a high incedence of work and school related stress that leads to suicide, and there are there are alot of "poor me, give me attention" suicides; But I do believe that someone can be so depressed, so traumatised, that they can't face everyday life anymore. Rape can bring someone to the edge, and can make people very depressed, nearly to the brink of suicide, and the prospect of having a child, and bear in mind that these girls are usually only around 14 years old, could easily lead to them wanting to commit suicide; as these girls cannot face the stress of having this child and raising it; and I strongly believe that if a girl was suicidal, she could be assessed by a psychologist to see if the threat of suicide is genuine.

DadaKopf · 06-03-2002 9:59pm

It's my absolute right to believe what I believe is right or wrong. Screw compassion - suicide is wrong, - it's selfish, it's cowardly and it's a pathetic way to end a life. Sensitive issue or not, it's better to be cold and clinical with hard facts instead of fudging or fluffying them up for fear of hurting people's feelings. If you're suicidal then get help to get you out of that way of thinking. Claiming to be suicidal is a piss-poor reason for taking the life of an unborn child.

Maybe this general kind of attitude that seems embedded in Irish culture is contributive to the rise in suicide?

Either way, you totally oversee the fact that many if not most people who commit suicide are clinically depressed - and I don't mean they're upset because of some life experience and are on low strength anti-depressants, I mean serious clinical depression - for anyone who has been seriously depressed and has tried to describe it (I suggest you read what Spike Milligan has written), they mention suicide as a constantly recurring thought. The threat of living is worse than the threat of death. It's wrong for you to just sweep it away and say they should just "get help" - that's the last thing anyone should think. That's just based on what I have come across as sound psychological fact.

With that in mind, I think abortion is (though rarely and certainly not always) a certain cure for suicidal depression but I would like to see a law that prevents abortion from occurring after the first trimester (I think that's then the brain stem is largely formed and si thought of as necessary for consciousness). We're talking practical strategies to save as many lives as possible and surely this can be seen as one of them.

Mossy Monk · 06-03-2002 10:03pm

i voted No today. i really cannot see the point of this referendum. all they are doing IMO is trying to take a step back. the way it is at the moment is fine with me. i think the referendum should have been for legal abortions in any clinic/hospital in this country. abortions are going to happen anyway, thousands go across the pond every year to have it done

chernobyl · 06-03-2002 10:04pm

How can any of you comment on suicide if you have never been there.
screw you Bard you have no idea what your ranting on about!

Lemming · 06-03-2002 10:14pm

I voted "no" for a number of reasons.

But irrespective of my views (which have been made clear on numerous occasions on the boards and I'll not go over them again), I voted no because this legislation is VERY badly written. I would rather see nothing passed than badly written legislation which may indeed be repugnant to the constitution.

Also, I find the manner in which the government dealt with this issue very cynical anmd condescending to the people of this Island. Bertie and Co. refused to show leadership for this country when they were asked for it and instead fobbed off the public.

As for Bard's comments on suicide. Whilst he's entitled to his opinion, and I'll not try and change his mind, I will say this:

quoting Bard
Screw compassion - suicide is wrong, - it's selfish, it's cowardly and it's a pathetic way to end a life.

I could say the EXACT same thing about rape/incest. And lets make no mistake about it - you ARE destroying somebody's life when you commit such a heinous act.

Giblet · 06-03-2002 10:14pm

I believe the reasoning behind this referendum is to clear the churches concious. They wont be happy until they can do the fast show sketch "What, Abortion, IN IRELAND, not with our reputation". Yeah reputation for being w/-\nkers.

Typedef · 07-03-2002 1:14am

Originally posted by Occidental
If you vote yes we can go on pretending we don't have a problem and pretend we're still an adorable little Catholic country.

God less with the same old tired Home Rule is Rome Rule mantra, some, most people could care less what the Catholic Church and it's pope thinks, really if you can't find a better reason than anti-Catholicism to exponenciate your view, then maybe those views don't have much merit beyond ati-Catholicism.

oh my gawd...... the papists are massing

Yurmasyurda · 07-03-2002 1:27am

I didn't vote mainly because I don't care, I know a lot of people would probably be angered by this but hey that's why you can vote

PS. If the referendum was about wether we could get tax free wages forever then I'd vote, it isn't really selfishness as such it's just the way I don't feel!

Bard · 07-03-2002 2:05am

Originally posted by chernobyl
How can any of you comment on suicide if you have never been there.
screw you Bard you have no idea what your ranting on about!

"Chernobyl",

You haven't a clue what I have or haven't got any idea about. You know little or nothing about me.

As I said earlier, my opinions are based on personal experiences and relationships. I HAVE been there ... I DO know what it's like ... and I feel I am perfectly free and qualified to comment on the matter ... so you, dear chernobyl, can feel free to stick your know-it-all attitude up your arse.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is not entitled, however, to ram their opinion down someone elses throat or to openly belittle someone elses opinion simply because they disagree with them.

chernobyl · 07-03-2002 2:17am

Originally posted by Bard

I DO know what it's like ... and I feel I am perfectly free and qualified to comment on the matter ...

I doubt it, just because you went through a crappy period in your life where you contemplated suicide doesnt mean your qualified.

you dont know about suicide, you just think you do.

Yurmasyurda · 07-03-2002 2:20am

Originally posted by Bard
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is not entitled, however, to ram their opinion down someone elses throat or to openly belittle someone elses opinion simply because they disagree with them.

I couldn't have said it better, I've had debates about this kind of thing. One example... I don't believe in god and I would certainly not go out tomorrow and tell people they should believe, this quote should go without saying!

Bard · 07-03-2002 2:20am

Originally posted by chernobyl

I doubt it, just because you went through a crappy period in your life where you contemplated suicide doesnt mean your qualified.

you dont know about suicide, you just think you do.

You really have no idea what I went through or who I went through it with, so don't try to imagine you do, ok? Let me just say that you couldn't be further from the truth. I've experienced far more than you'd believe.

As the memories are quite painful ones, I'm not about to go explaining it to you here, so kindly let it go.

chernobyl · 07-03-2002 2:23am

no, because your side line commentary is bs.

Bard · 07-03-2002 2:31am

Originally posted by chernobyl
no, because your side line commentary is bs.

I know what I know- I believe what I believe. And I couldn't care less whether you believe me or not or whether you believe I am qualified to comment or not.

I know I am... and I'm entitled to my say.

You can stick your attitude where the sun don't shine.

meglome · 07-03-2002 3:42am

Well I see all the usual moral suspects are here...

I'm getting really sick of this, it just seems over and over I see the same people sanctimoniously moralising for the rest of us and it seems to me to be more like Catholic Church programming than really clear thought.

Look the reality is that we DO have abortion on demand in (or very damn close to) Ireland. For less than the train fare from Dublin to Cork we can fly to London, Liverpool or Glasgow and in less time too. And nothing can really stop people doing this for an abortion.

I may have voted no to this but it doesn't mean I think abortion is a good thing. Maybe one day we will stop pretending that our high moral stance makes the slightest bit of difference and actually try and help these girls in their own country.

Biffa Bacon · 07-03-2002 11:13am

Originally posted by meglome
Well I see all the usual moral suspects are here...

I'm getting really sick of this, it just seems over and over I see the same people sanctimoniously moralising for the rest of us and it seems to me to be more like Catholic Church programming than really clear thought.

Look the reality is that we DO have abortion on demand in (or very damn close to) Ireland. For less than the train fare from Dublin to Cork we can fly to London, Liverpool or Glasgow and in less time too. And nothing can really stop people doing this for an abortion.

I may have voted no to this but it doesn't mean I think abortion is a good thing. Maybe one day we will stop pretending that our high moral stance makes the slightest bit of difference and actually try and help these girls in their own country.

Absolutely moronic argument.

[Biffa make more of an effort please than a 3 word response. I have now closed this thread because it is degenerating into a little insult fest - any problems with that PM me - Gandalf]

Giblet · 07-03-2002 11:23am

It's a well and good posting "A Moronic argument"
But Why is it? Anyone can say that, about anything.

Abortion Poll [Who voted]

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