Why do the "Disabled and Housebound" not have subsidised internet access - NOW??.

billy the squid

Giving disabled people the ability to generate an income from either tele-working or setting up their own business needs to be subsidised by the government.

They may not be able to work in factories but they could have excelent say accounting or clerical skills which , thanks to the internet they can do from home. This is why internet should be subsidised by the government if only to allow members of the disabled to either allow them to get out of the poverty trap.

as for using the internet for leisure could all the able bodied people lock themselves in a room and talk to no one for a month. I doubt any of us would last. I would call this solitary confinement it should only be dished out to people who misbhave in prison.

Should IrelandOFFline represent them, yes, why, because they decided to take on the issue of high cost of internet access in this country.

I think it would confuse the message that IrelandOffline is trying to make about Internet access generally

Ireland offline started out because there were several No Limits domestic customers got the two finger saluite from esat. Did adding the needs of small businesses internet costs confuse the issue?

If your finding the whole issue of whether or not disabled people having a subsidised internet confusing then get whatever working group responsible for setting up alliances with other lobby groups to get on it and find out if groups like enable ireland would be interested given that it would help their members gain employment from working at home or starting a business of their own.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by fcddunne
Should IrelandOFFline represent them, yes, why, because they decided to take on the issue of high cost of internet access in this country.

No one was suggesting that Ireland Offline not represent disabled people as Internet users. IrelandOffline is about representing all Internet users who support its aims. You seem to be suggesting otherwise.

Ireland offline started out because there were several No Limits domestic customers got the two finger saluite from esat. Did adding the needs of small businesses internet costs confuse the issue?

No, but these were simply used as an example of a group that were suffering because of the bad internet access situation here. They also carry more weight with the government given its business orientation, but the benefits should be enjoyed by all. It does not mean that we wish to exclude other groups.

If your finding the whole issue of whether or not disabled people having a subsidised internet confusing

You misunderstand what was said. I've said earlier that I personally am in favour of subsidy for specific groups but I'm not sure whether IrelandOffline should be adopting this approach. Perhaps it is better to concentrate on the underlying issues was what I was saying. To do both might confuse what IrelandOffline is about with those we are lobbying. I don't find the issue confusing given that I said a couple of posts ago that I was in favour of it. I might be wrong but I feel I'm being misrepresented here.

dromoland

fcddunne, I just want to say all the points in your last post were excellent as far as I am concerned.

But it look like irelandoffline are not interested in specific groups.

Since the demise of Esat Surf No Limits I feel this forum is no longer supported by a good many of the very people who would probably give backing to an issue like this one, but who no longer can afford paying per minute to visit this website long enough to digest all the postings and then give their reply.

That's not to say that I do not appreciate what the people who run irelandoffline are doing for everyone in the country.

dromoland

Paddy20

Message to IrelandOFFline, Operators, Managers, or Policymakers??. Let me get a straight answer to a straight "question". Was IrelandOFFline "set up" to represent the interests of "ALL" Internet users. I would like an honest - yes - or - no, answer please!, as the answer will determine my next course of action re:- My sincere belief that the "Disabled/Housebound" are an important part of the word "ALL" and can not be treated as a minority on their own, as some seem to be suggesting??. IrelandOFFline has my support . I just hope that I have theirs - "offically declared" once and for all. I look forward to your response. Your, paddy20.

BuffyBot

Paddy20:

There's no nice way of saying this and it's meant in a general sense rather than a personal, but ermm.....you're not going out of your way to engender any support or good feelings either. Demanding answers, and making postings with an agressive tone doesn't help anyones case.

IMHO

chernobyl

[chernobyl enables paddy20 post mode]"You" "are" "not" "being" "supportive" "enough"[/paddy20 post mode off]

yours,"paddy20"

qwertyup

I think it is not necessarily a very good idea to campaign for a smaller group with a slightly different agenda to the general concept of IrelandOffline.

The chances are that if one line is pursued like this, you would dilute attention from the main message, and probably just give the Government/Eircom a chance to do something meaningless in return for media plaudits and public praise.

Just my $.02

dahamsta

What BuffyBoy said, but I'll answer your question Paddy20:

Your question was: Was IrelandOFFline "set up" to represent the interests of "ALL" Internet users. Which, because I'm a perfectionist, I'm going to take as: Was IrelandOFFline "set up" to represent the interests of "ALL" Internet users in Ireland.

IrelandOffline was set up with the express purpose of campaigning for affordable Internet access in Ireland, and you can take that to mean "the people of Ireland". The disabled and housebound are people of Ireland, so the answer to your question is: "Yes, IrelandOffline was set up to represent the interests of all Internet users in Ireland, BUT it was set up to represent them as a whole, and not as a mutitude of disparate groups. Business, consumers, college students, the handicapped, etc, etc, all get treated alike by IrelandOffline.

Our campaign, if successful, will benefit you Paddy20. But it would be illogical, and possibly even wrong, if our organisation attempted to represent disparate groups individually. We're already overstretched, we can't afford to break it down like that. As has been suggested, if you believe IrelandOffline is not doing /enough/ for your own subcategory, you should talk to organisations that represent you. They can do far more for your own particular needs that we ever can. But that should not preclude you from being a member of IrelandOffline.

adam

Xian

Unlike transport and health services, the Internet is not an essential service...Should the disabled also be entitled to discounts with record stores?... cable TV companies?... video rental?... McDonald's?

Yes it is. Access to information and freedom of communication is widely seen as a basic right. This is not beer and cigarettes. News, the postal service, terrestrial television, public transport are considered public necessities. Magazines, couriers, cable television are not. There is no recognized public necessity for videos or McDonalds. The public necessity of food and information is, however, well recognized.

eircom is a private company, the goverment has no right to tell it what retail products it provides and at what price

The ESB is a commercial company. This does not discount the need for a heating allowance.

why not the unemployed, single mothers, low paid, small business

yes, no, yes (unemployed specifically),no

.....did i leave anyone out?

The elderly and, as noted elsewhere, carers.

Oh yeah...why not me as well.

NO!

incoherent idiots

This is a public forum, Paddy. The choice is yours who to listen to and who to respond to.

The government cannot tell Eircom to provide a service to any person or group. They are now a private company. Any "social services" they provide now would be on a contract they have accepted from the government, not because they have been instructed.

See above.

If someone is housebound 24/7 then i wouldnt object to a subsidy for internet access for them.

See Dustaz? I told you it was a good idea to go on holiday: we're in agreement again!

The advent of online shopping doesn't mean we should subsidise the net because it's become "essential"

By your reasoning, noone should get subsidized access to Luas when it is introduced.

Paddy20

Reply to Dahamsta:- Many thanks to you for your prompt and considered reply to my question re: IrelandOFFlines representation of - all - inernet users in Ireland. You have clarified my doubts and I am very happy that - all - includes the "disabled and housebound" The efforts of Ireland OFFline to get a fair deal on accesing the internet for all is to be admired and I congratulate you all for your continuing campaign, without Ireland OFFlines existence I would not have found a forum to air my frustration - and I appreciate you allowing me to use your site for a "public poll" on the need for the disabled to have cheaper access to the internet, as it clearly would enhance the "quality of life" for them and that includes myself. Finally, I note that the "Yes" voters seem to be leading at present, which is encouraging - please keep voting - on this issue !!, Thanks to you all for lifting my spirits out of the doldrums. Yours, paddy20.

Paddy20

Reply to "Xian" Many thanks, for your supportive posting of yesterday. I really enjoyed reading it and agree with everthing you said and the subtle way that you got your views accross? - wish I had your talent . Good Luck, Yours,paddy20.;)

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Xian

Yes it is. Access to information and freedom of communication is widely seen as a basic right. This is not beer and cigarettes. News, the postal service, terrestrial television, public transport are considered public necessities. Magazines, couriers, cable television are not. There is no recognized public necessity for videos or McDonalds. The public necessity of food and information is, however, well recognized.
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By your reasoning, noone should get subsidized access to Luas when it is introduced.

Luas is/will be public transport. You have stated yourself that this is a recognised nessecity. I agree. People who are deserving are quite entitled to subsidised/free access. However, it's a completely seperate issue from net access.

Much as I love the internet, and use it, I cannot agree it's a nessecity. We have all manged to live without it before it's popularisation, able bodied and disabled. It would not be right to subsidise net access for one group. I agree with dahamsta..the point of IrelandOffline is reduced internet access for all, not matter who they happen to be.:)

pencil

I haven't read this whole thread, but my feeling on the subject is that the internet IS a vital resource to anyone housebound.

I'd gladly pay taxes to subsidise the access for housebound people.

dahamsta

I just want to make sure that my comments aren't misconstrued -- there are two issues here, not one: the first being the original question, on whether or not the disabled/handicapped/housebound should have subsidised Internet access; and the second being whether IrelandOffline should represent these groups individually. My answers, in order, are "yes", and "no". My thoughts on the former revolve around pencil's comment. I haven't voted on this poll, because I've already voted in the previous - exact same - poll. I also made my thoughts clear in that thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=42185

adam

Paddy20

Reply to "Pencil" Nice one, Thanks for supporting my wish. It seems to me that some of the money that Ireland - has and still is receiving from the EU??.. Should cover any costs involved in this issue?. You should nothave to pay any more TAX as we are already just about the most "heavily" taxed Country in Europe. Let the politicians allocate - the "HAND OUTS" this Country has received to a few - worthy - schemes, such as cheaper internet access "for all"??., instead af wasting many "Millions" on white elephants??. Thanks again & be lucky, Yours, paddy20 - N.B Keep the issue rolling,it is popular after all??..;)

astrofool

problem is that ireland is so backward internet wise.

If they decide that the subsidy should be that the disabled get fixed cost internet access, it reduces the chance that everyone else in the country will be able to get it.

Flat rate access should be available to all.

The disabled should be entitled to a subsidised pc, and setup costs.

Remember, Eircom are screwing us all over, not just the disabled, so the fight should be made as a whole, dividing it into sub-groups all looking after their own as it were, dilutes the impact, and creates an "as long as I have it f*ck the rest" type atmosphere, and also allows Eircom to make token gestures to get themselves off the hook "look, we've helped the disabled, we're a nice company REALLY"

Dustaz

At the risk of sounding like a cold and heartless snake, this is just the type of thing that Ireland Offline should be using as publicity.

Paddy20's story is another example of how bad the internet situation is here and lets face it, its one that engenders real empathy (more so than 'nerds playing games' and business 'out to make a quicker buck).

Im not suggesting that we turn into some sort of mutant Max Clifford and take advantage of all the disabled/housebound/carers that use the internet, but there are valid and relevant points in the stories in these threads.

qwertyup

I think that it actually would be a dangerous road to pursue, going on the basis of greater publicity if the group was to partially campaign on the behalf of the disabled for subsidised internet.

Why?

For one thing, I would be very worried that Eircom would give some snotty promise which sounds good on paper, but does squat all in practise, and gains heaps of good publicity and praise on the back of it.

Meanwhile the issue of internet cheap for all would be forgotten as nerd's nirvana yet again, by the ever technologically ignorant press.

I wuld just be against taking attention away from the main cause (what little attention there is).

Paddy20

Reply from paddy20, to Dustaz &qwertyup:- As a supporter of Ireland OFFlinies campaign for "flat-rate" fairly priced internet access for -all. I have to agree with "Dustaz" Quote:" Paddy20s story is another example of how bad the "internet situation" is here" plus Quote:"This is just the type of thing that Ireland OFFline should be using as publicity"?.. You see "public relations" experts are always saying that -"Any publicity is good publicity"?.. especially for - campaigning organisation - and/or - Pressure groups -?. I personally believe that the media are always looking for a "new" what they refer to as a "HOOK" upon which they can write more about a particular issue - without "disregarding" the main aims of the campaigning organisation, the particular - hook - simply makes it easier for the journalists to have thier NEW story accepted by thier editor. The story is then printed and everyone benefits??... including Ireland OFFlines stated main objectives and aims!. So "qwerty" - If it is accepted that all publicity is good publicity and is certainly - Better than none - Then I have to "Disagree" with your statement, Quote:-" I think that it actually would be a dangerous road to pursue"??.. Plus as for Eircom - making Quote:-"Some snotty promise"?. I genuinely can not see that happening. Finally, let me just state that it is my firm belief that the only logical democratic resolution to this thorny issue will be found through The Dail. This issue of a flat-rate fair open competition internet access cost to Irish Citizens should be raised at "question time"by a TD on behalf of the concerned general public . The matter would then "probably" be put forward for "Debate" and a vote then taken amongst members of all parties on the issue??. If the politicians are in toush with the "grass roots" of thier individual constituencies, then hopefully a motion will be passed calling for legislation that allows and facilitates the open and fair competitive marketplace to decide how much we should be paying for a fair flat-rate "Unmetered" internet access service??.. Thereby opening the door to open competion where normally the "winner" is the consumer??.. i.e. in this case - ALL - the internet users in Ireland and that means both you and me!! , O.K. Many thanks to you both for your "postings" on my poll - your messages are appreciated very much by me??. Yours,paddy20 and a final plea - Let the good times roll!!.. Keep voting internet users on this issue and ALL of us will benefit in the end. ??...Yours, paddy20:cool:

dromoland

Paddy your last post hit the nail on the head. The whole question of unmetered internet access should long ago should have been debated in The Dail.

Can we not find one sympathetic TD out of the entire country to start the ball rolling. Maybe you should start another debate on this specific subject.

I want to take this opportunity to thank you for giving me the opportunity to vote in your worthy poll.

I agree wholeheartedly with all the points you made throughout.
As a matter of interest it would be very interesting to know the result when you wind up the poll.

Regards, dromoland

dahamsta

Right, apparently Dave has talked to Paddy20 and is satisfied that this... whatever it is... is a misunderstanding; so I've split the off-topic posts and moved them here. The poll cannot be reopened, this is out of my control.

Paddy20, if you want to address this issue again, please do it in this thread. Also, please read the info & rules, and try to stay on-topic in future. Like it or not, I'm the moderator here, I won't tolerate offensive behaviour; not to me, not to anybody.

adam

Paddy20

Reply to Dahamsta,from paddy20. Dahamsta I appreciate that being a moderator on the IOFFL is a difficult role, and the fact that you do this on a "Voluntary unpaid basis" will in future be taken in to consideration by me? and hopefully others will also note:- "That the complete - Ireland OFFline Organisation is run by an unpaid - voluntary Committee, something I was not aware of before yesterday??. So hopefully the technical difficulties in re-opening my poll willbe resolved!..and people will once again be able to exercise their democratic right to express their "opinion" and also "Vote" for now. yours, paddy20;)

Paddy20

Another point/message to:- dahamsta - from paddy20. I forgot in my last message to elaborate on a point? - that people may be wondering about!.- When I posted "this poll" it was with the realisation that the "Disabled & Housebound" would need - more time - to find out about the poll??, then probably have to arrange to gain access to a computer?, so that they could vote or express their opinion. About 95% of replies have been from the able bodied. This I think may explain why I became so "alarmed" that my poll was going to be closed on Saturday 16th March. After only 7 days? when I posted the poll I typed in a box that it should be allowed to run for (90 DAYS)??. Had the poll and thread been closed today. I believe this action would have "INADVERTANTLY" discriminated against - the "Disabled & Housebound" Thereby,producing a misleading POLL RESULT??. Particularly, in relation to a true accurate "Vote?." All comments from everyone are more than welcome, so are everyones votes. So I ask please keep this issue alive and kicking? your, paddy20, N.B. Quote:- The only thing to FEAR in LIFE, is FEAR itself??. I must learn how to use this as my electronic signature?.;)

Paddy20

Question to dahamsta, from paddy20. Re:- your statement:- Quote:-" The poll cannot be reopened, this is out of my control". I have been checking the votes on my poll and the number of votes seem to be increasing again ??. Is the poll voting glitch in the technical department now fixed ??. If this is so, could you - Please - confirm that the - poll - is re-opened !. So that people are - made aware- that they can resume voting , and replying leaving messages etc, on my poll -once again??. Yours Hopefully, paddy20. Quote:- "The only thing to FEAR in Life,is Fear itself" ?? My God, I think I am learning how to type at last, now how do I use the keyboard to introduce paragraphing? I am stuck on that one "Still"?.:)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by paddy20
how do I use the keyboard to introduce paragraphing? I am stuck on that one "Still"?.:)

Just press the 'enter' key twice to insert a blank line.

dahamsta

Dave talked to the Boards.ie Admins about your poll, so I assume they reopened it. It will run for 30 days in full now, i.e. from the day you posted it.

adam

Paddy20

Reply to SKepticOne, from - paddy20.

Very many thanks to you for your "paragraphing"tip. I thought it would be more complicated?.

Look it WORKS?? -You have made my day SKeptiOne.

I can now compose properly laid out messages - what a relief?, I know this is probably NOT the appropriate forum, but I just had to try your tip out - you know how it is when you you are new to something - Great.

Yours, paddy20;)

Quote:- "The only thing to FEAR in Life, is FEAR itself?. my new electronic signature. I must now try and learn the "Netiquette" code.. see you.:cool:

SkepticOne

Originally posted by paddy20
Reply to SKepticOne, from - paddy20.

Very many thanks to you for your "paragraphing"tip. I thought it would be more complicated?.

Look it WORKS?? -You have made my day SKeptiOne.

You're welcome. I'm sure we can all agree that anything that helps communication is to be encouraged. Many people in the comms industry view this forum and it is important to keep things clear and on-topic. This helps others others understand what's going on.

For other questions on how to use the bulletin boards, feel free to click here.

Paddy20

Reply to dahamsta, from, paddy20.

Many thanks to you for confirming that my poll will now continue until 10th April.

Would those Disabled & Able - bodied internet users who thought that they could - no longer Vote, or post a reply/message from yesterday on this issue please note?.. Everyone now has until the 10thof April to get your view "off your chest" be it pro or anti.

So please keep this "POLL" active until then with your responses, as thats whats needed to achieve a fairer/cheaper - more realistically priced - UNmetered internet access flat-rate service for all ??. Keep the ball rolling by participating please.

Yours, paddy20.:)

dromoland

I'm delighted to hear the poll is continuing until April 10th. My thanks and congratulations to those who made this possible.

While first and foremost agreeing that affordable flat rate internet access should be available to all and that is what irelandoffline was set up to fight for, nevertheless while it is the subject of discussion here I feel it would be very interesting to find out what the Disabled/Housebound would be prepared/able to afford for such a service.

In my own housebound situation, on limited means and where the internet is my lifeline to communicaton with the outside world, I would put what I think would be a fair and affordable figure at 25.00 Euros per month, similar to what Esat was charging for their flat-rate service before it became discontinued.

I am asking for a response from other Disabled/Housebound users regarding how much they could afford to pay.

dromoland