sinn fein

IRISHLILY24

ok. since this is the politics forum, wont everyone tell me thier feelings on sinn fein?
tanks

Typedef

Feel, interesting.
I feel that FG and FF used to be Sinn Fein and that numerous politicians from this Republic supplied arms to the IRA. I know that during the rising in 1916 that the then IRB and Sinn Fein 'were not' connected and that it was General Maxwell who coined the connection Sinn Fein/IRA.
Anyway, before the mandatory rant about terrorism I thought I would perhaps interject with historical fact.

I find it strange that people will criticise Sinn Fein for paramilitary activity after electing Charles Haughy, when it must be obvious to quadropeds in the street that he was supplying guns to the IRA, shrug either both are wrong or both are right, but how is it ok for Fianna Fial to supply guns to the paramilitary groups on this island and not Sinn Fein, a certain entity called RTE news perhaps?
Maybe that is cynical.

Terrorism is in the eye of the state news broadcaster
And down with Goldstein.

Chaos-Engine

I would honestly and will be voting SF over FF/FG once presented with the boxs... SF are interested in making Ireland a more sustainable place. For example: FF/FG are more interested in selling off state utilities and attracting FDI, were as SF would invest in Irish enterprise(profit repatriation is a bitch)....

One thing that puts me off SF is perhaps their UN-involvment in the Anti-Racist campaigns that have been organised by various action groups that SF have links with.

In my eyes the most possible and suitable government that is a possible reality I can see is...

Labour led coalition with SF in a minority with some green's(about 5). FG non-existant... PDs in the toilet and FF playing Opposition with the independents on their local councils were they belong and not in the dail looking after 25 ppl on a hill in kerry and feck teh rest of ireland....


Irish Politics needs serious polarisation and I think SF will cause enough trouble to create this

m1ke

I think anyone that goes to vote for them seriously needs to reconsider doing so. The fact is sinn fein is linked with the IRA - you can't say it isn't true because we'd all know it's pure bull****.

If it's linked with the IRA then that means it condones : selling drugs to raise money for guns, stealing property, murdering innocent people based on their religion etc.... Simply by the fact sinn fein refuses to condemn these acts is enough reason not to vote for them.

The fact they don't fully acknowledge the institutions of the Republic of Ireland either is another reason not to vote for them.

Yet another reason why they're below par is the quality of their candidates. There's no doubt that people like Gerry Adams and a few others are highly skilled politicians but the bulk being supplied are atrocious.

The example I use is a person who's standing for election in my own constit of Dublin Central - Nicky "The Bomber" Keogh - he's an illiterate thug, former bomber with a grade A criminal record. The man can hardly express himself through English never mind represent Dublin Central which he wouldn't do properly anyway because he doesn't acknowledge the institutions of the Republic of Ireland.

So there are just a couple of reasons off the top of the head why I think they ain't got ****.

bonkey

Originally posted by m1ke
The example I use is a person who's standing for election in my own constit of Dublin Central - Nicky "The Bomber" Keogh - he's an illiterate thug, former bomber with a grade A criminal record. The man can hardly express himself through English never mind represent Dublin Central which he wouldn't do properly anyway because he doesn't acknowledge the institutions of the Republic of Ireland.

I thought a "grade A criminal record" would automatically prevent Mr Keogh, or anyone else for that matter, from being a candidate?

I would also ask about your bomber allegations. I'm not necessarily doubting you but google cant find a single hit for "Nicky Keogh" and "bomber", nor for "Nick Keogh" and "criminal" which I find interesting.

In the course of digging up some information, though, I've seen some press quotes from Mr. Keogh, and he seems pretty literate to me - as well as being an active anti-drugs campaigner.

In general, if you're going to level such massive criticism at an individual, I'd prefer if you supplied some linkage to back up your allegations. Otherwise, its easy to dismiss your post as the rantings of a blinkered anti-Sinn-Feiner.

As for all this Sinn Fein/IRA ranting that si inevitable, I ask this : would you prefer that we remove the legitimate democratic avenue which Sinn Fein are currently using, and reduce their options to complete capitulation or a return to violence. That is what banning Sinn Fein would do, and I think it would take you one guess to figure out which option would be taken.

Life isnt perfect. Sometimes we have to accept things we dont like. Sinn Fein have to remain legal - it is the lesser of two evils. You dont have to vote for them, but thats a seperate issue.

jc

Meh

Originally posted by bonkey
I thought a "grade A criminal record" would automatically prevent Mr Keogh, or anyone else for that matter, from being a candidate?jc

Martin Ferris, the SF candidate in Kerry North, spent 10 years in Portlaoise prison for gun-running.

gandalf

Yeah we know that but its Nicky Keogh we want some info on. I also did a quick search for him on the net and found nothing except an article about him addressing some anti-drug rally in Nenagh.

m1ke can you put up some supporting information about his criminal record etc.

BTW IRISHLILY24 normally if you start a thread off on the Politics board we expect you to make your views known in it as well. As your new I'll let it pass this once, next time I will delete the post if its a one liner.

Gandalf.

m1ke

it is an article i read in the indo on him.... i'll try to dig it up later.

CHRISTYG

Sinn Fein=IRA. And as the Irish Republican Army are a TERRORIST organisation, what does that make Sinn Fein?

scojones

Originally posted by m1ke
I think anyone that goes to vote for them seriously needs to reconsider doing so. The fact is sinn fein is linked with the IRA - you can't say it isn't true because we'd all know it's pure bull****.

If it's linked with the IRA then that means it condones : selling drugs to raise money for guns, stealing property, murdering innocent people based on their religion etc.... Simply by the fact sinn fein refuses to condemn these acts is enough reason not to vote for them.

Ummm... BULL****! Sein Fein does not condone selling drugs for any reason let alone to raise money for guns. The mayor of shannon is a member of sein fein and he has pushed the gardai to their limit making sure they do everything in their efforts to get rid of the drugs problem there. He's held meetings with the commission to help come up with ways of solving the problem. He's put up posters on lamp posts around shannon that had a list of all the known drug dealers in shannon, with the heading "KNOW YOUR NEIGHBOURS". Does this sound like sein fein condones selling drugs? Know the facts before you speak. Speculation is the devil.

m1ke

the IRA are your plain average terrorists, they need money to fund their organisation.... so they do the things criminals do to raise money.... and selling and taking cuts off drug deals is part of what they do / have done in the past.

And we all know Sinn Fein has never condemned a single thing the IRA has done.... and anyone who says they aren't linked and tied very closely with the IRA are most likely subjects of some sort of heavy mental conditioning.

scojones

Originally posted by m1ke
and anyone who says they aren't linked and tied very closely with the IRA are most likely subjects of some sort of heavy mental conditioning.

Don't get me wrong but this sounds to me like you are saying "anyone who says they are not linked to the ira are nuts" so we are all linked to them? what? who?

CHRISTYG

sjones, I think he means anyone who thinks "THEY" (meaning Sinn Fein) aren't linked to the IRA must be nuts. I don't think he meant the whole of the Irish nation-at least I hope not!

bonkey

To all those who are so vehemently anti-Sinn Fein because of their IRA links, I have one question.

Could you explain how cutting off the one non-violent avenue which is available to this "group" is actually going to help the situation in any way?

The IRA are conducting illegal terrorism. Acceptance of their political wing has brought at least some hope of less violence and greater peace in the future. If you remove their political wing, what do you think will happen - do you think they'll just stick to their current cease-fire in the North, and say "oh well, we agreed to that, but we dont have any way to use it now", or will they say "right - back to the bombings if they wont deal with us peacefully".

For right or for wrong, we have no choice but to accept Sinn Fein, and hope that they will be able to strengthen their position over the violent fanatics in the IRA.

I would also point out to all those on a high and mighty crusade against their acceptance that this state exists purely and solely because of the willingness of the UK to deal with the political arm of a terrorist organisation - because thats exactly who brokered the original Freestate agreements. Would you prefer that the British had maintained your purity of cause, and simply ramped up the military presence in a "British Ireland"?

No - I didnt think so.

jc

m1ke

why don't you read the full sentence again.

Actually i'll offer you a helping hand :

"And we all know Sinn Fein has never condemned a single thing the IRA has done.... and anyone who says they aren't linked and tied very closely with the IRA are most likely subjects of some sort of heavy mental conditioning."

Does that make it any clearer for you ?


Also i'm not saying "anyone who says they are not linked to the ira are nuts" - there's plenty of reasonable people out there who aren't nuts but believe the propaganda and the conspiracy theories so i'd prefer to stick to "mental conditioning" on this.

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
I thought a "grade A criminal record" would automatically prevent Mr Keogh, or anyone else for that matter, from being a candidate?

Substantially the only restrictions are that your aren't currently under sentence, that you can demonstrate some support (small petition), qualify under nationality, are over 21 and are not a bankrupt person.

Originally posted by bonkey
I would also ask about your bomber allegations. I'm not necessarily doubting you but google cant find a single hit for "Nicky Keogh" and "bomber", nor for "Nick Keogh" and "criminal" which I find interesting. ... In general, if you're going to level such massive criticism at an individual, I'd prefer if you supplied some linkage to back up your allegations. Otherwise, its easy to dismiss your post as the rantings of a blinkered anti-Sinn-Feiner.

I think the current edition of Phoenix has a write up on some SF candidates and I think Keogh is mentioned as a convicted bomber. Not every instance can be backed up with a link - that statement is usually used as an excuse to deny something (not accusing you here).

scojones

Originally posted by CHRISTYG
sjones, I think he means anyone who thinks "THEY" (meaning Sinn Fein) aren't linked to the IRA must be nuts. I don't think he meant the whole of the Irish nation-at least I hope not!

Thanks doc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
To all those who are so vehemently anti-Sinn Fein because of their IRA links, I have one question. Could you explain how cutting off the one non-violent avenue which is available to this "group" is actually going to help the situation in any way

Not sure if I have the right angle on your post, but i will try. SF will be accepted / rewarded in gradual stages by the public and other political parties as their participation and record (and that includes that of their membership) in exclusively democratic means progresses. The problem is SF seem to think that they are entitled to 'everything' at the start of the process.

Victor

Originally posted by CHRISTYG
Sinn Fein=IRA. And as the Irish Republican Army are a TERRORIST organisation, what does that make Sinn Fein?

I would say Sinn Fein~=IRA. Membership overlaps, but you will find that there are IRA members who aren't SF members and vice versa.

Would you say FF=GAA=Catholic Church, just because there are overlaps does not make them the same, similar in some aspects, but not the same.

m1ke

"For right or for wrong, we have no choice but to accept Sinn Fein, and hope that they will be able to strengthen their position over the violent fanatics in the IRA."

I accept that people have the right to vote for Sinn Fein candidates and that they have support - afterall we live in a democracy.

They do have people like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness that are trying to make a difference and trying to move away from terrorism and I support any move away from terrorism and I wish them the best if that is what they're trying to accomplish..... but there's no ****ing way i'm going to vote for people like Martin Ferris or Nicky Kehoe who are thugs, vigilantes, terrorists and supporters of murder.... I don't want someone like them in parliament representing me. If Sinn Fein want to move away from terrorism and provide decent candidates then i'll reconsider.

manonthemoon

As there are many Sinn Fein supporters on this thread can they answer this question

Do they think that the "drugs problem" can be solved, by such tactics as "Know your neighbour"?

Typedef

Everybody 'knows' the RUC murdered Pat Finucane, I consistently find these kind of discussions one sided, the bottom line is that the IRA wouldn't exist or have existed without some sort of reason for it to have existed in the first place now would it?

It seems inconsistent to label the IRA as terrorists for what they do and fail to understand the impetus behind it.
It's not as if Pat Finucane was killed in the 60's, this happened a few years ago (2?), so who does that make terrorists of?
Yes what the IRA did and do is wrong, but in a state where leading members of comunity X are murdered by the ostensibly community Y security forces, what kind of response would you expect.

Sinn Fein are FF/FG in reality that is where the two main political parties in this Republic come from, both parties have run guns to the paramilitaries in the North, so it is a case of the pot and kettle vis-a-vis political parties in the country when decrying 'terrorist'. What makes it wrong for the Sinn Fein to be involved with the IRA, but right and ok for the armchair Republican politicians in the South to supply guns, safe haven to paramilitaries and the decry them on national television for the sake of winning an election?
It's all about perception, and it simply wouldn't do for the British media and Irish media to troll different lines to the television land public, so the same politicians who supply the UVF with 'intellegence' on Republicans or the same politicians who supply the IRA with guns, must for the sake of common public perception deny it, deny their actions and deny their real intent.
Make no mistake what is really happening is a war of 'interests', and just because those 'interests' are not obvious in the way American oil interests are, does not mean that the spin that surrounds those interests is diminished.
Typedef

ReefBreak

Mind if I jump in here...

Also to the Sinn Fein supporters on this board:
I understand Sinn Féin in politics is far better than Sinn Féin supporting murder. But what I'd like to know is exactly why anyone would support Sinn Féin? What exactly are their policies? More to the point, do they have any?

And to IRISHLILY24:
Judging from your other posts, I'm guessing you're not originally from Ireland. What were your opinions of SF before arriving in Ireland? Have they changed since you arrived here? Oh and finally, before arriving here, were you under the impression that SF were a large political group rather than the reality - a quite small, but growing, party. I ask that last question because a lot of visitors to Ireland are under the impression that SF are a major force, and are surprised to find that they're not.

SheroN

if michael collins was running for election in the morning, how many people would vote for him?

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
Sinn Fein are FF/FG in reality that is where the two main political parties in this Republic come from, both parties have run guns to the paramilitaries in the North, so it is a case of the pot and kettle vis-a-vis political parties in the country when decrying 'terrorist'. What makes it wrong for the Sinn Fein to be involved with the IRA, but right and ok for the armchair Republican politicians in the South to supply guns, safe haven to paramilitaries and the decry them on national television for the sake of winning an election?

So you're saying that Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have supplied the IRA in Northern Ireland with weapons? I challenge you to back this up. And remember that in the Arms Trial, it was never alleged that the Fianna Fail organization supplied arms to anyone. FF fired Haughey as a minister because of the Arms trial allegations for god's sake. Trying to show some kind of equivalency between mainstream democratic political parties in the Republic and the murdering vigilante terrorists* in Sinn Fein is ridiculuous.

* I can back this statement up by naming many prominent SF members who have been convicted of murder and vigilante/terrorist crimes.

Typedef

Fine.
So you are saying that because someone is convicted of a crime that is a member of organisation (n) that organisation (n) is guilty by association. Therefore Fianna Fial are guilty 'collectively' of taking bribes because Ray Burke was guilty of doing so and the Catholic Church is guilty of paedophilia and thus are paedophiles because 'some' of it's clerics were guilty of doing so, is that correct? Therefore the entire British army is guilty of murder because of the shootings on Bloody Sunday and as it was acting in the name of the British state and nation, so is the state and every citizen of it.

Seeing as how 'we' are dealing with 'what is known' as opposed to 'what is proved' ie 'we know that Sinn Fein and the IRA are the same organisation without actually proving it and despite the claims to the contrary of Sinn Fein politicians' we can similarly 'know' that the ministers on trial in the Arms trial, ministers who aceeded to the highest etilans of Irish political life we in fact 'known' to be supplying guns to the IRA. 'We' can 'know' that high ranking military officials were told to take a fall to protect these politicians and 'we' can know a great many other things about politicians or 'we' can imply a great deal about their organisations can't we?

Similarly we 'know' despite claims by Ronnie Flanagan and others to the contrary that Pat Finucane was murdered by the RUC, so by the premis of 'public knowledge without evidence' I challenge you to prove that the RUC did not in fact murder Pat Finucane else present me with concrete evidence that states that Sinn Fein the progenitor political party of Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael are in fact the same organisation as the IRA, but somehow 'by slight of hand presumably' the same concatonation does not apply to the progeny political parties of Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael.

Anyway all political parties are tainted in someway, your support simply becomes a balance of what those parties can do for you. There is no morality in politics there is only the victor and those remunerated because of it. Make no mistake every single politician is first and foremost a political animal and their 'pincipals' are simply an appendation a tool for politicians to gain support and then power and influence for themselves. The ones with morality ultimately get chewed up by real life and that is the way it is, the evidence of such a darwinian mode of political machivellianism is not just everywhere it is the foundation of politics, so fine preach about who you believe to be 'righteous', in reality it's a fallacy a lie a mantra a convienance to move power from one base and grouping to another, that's all and in the final equation that's all that matters.
Typedef.

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
So you are saying that because someone is convicted of a crime that is a member of organisation (n) that organisation (n) is guilty by association. Therefore Fianna Fial are guilty 'collectively' of taking bribes because Ray Burke was guilty of doing so and the Catholic Church is guilty of paedophilia and thus are paedophiles because 'some' of it's clerics were guilty of doing so, is that correct? Therefore the entire British army is guilty of murder because of the shootings on Bloody Sunday and as it was acting in the name of the British state and nation, so is the state and every citizen of it.

If, over a period of time, many members of an organization are convicted of a crime related to the organization and the organization does not discipline them or impose sanctions on them, or otherwise condones their crimes, then yes, that organization shares some of the guilt involved. Thus the British government (not just the army) share some of the guilt for Bloody Sunday. The Catholic Church shares some of the guilt for sexual abuse by priests.

I challenge you to prove that the RUC did not in fact murder Pat Finucane

It is impossible to prove a negative.

else present me with concrete evidence that states that Sinn Fein the progenitor political party of Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael are in fact the same organisation as the IRA,.

Sinn Fein and the IRA are not the same organization. It's possible to be a member of SF without being a member of the IRA. They are very closely related however -- more closely than is healthy in a democratic society.

Typedef

Originally posted by Meh
It is impossible to prove a negative.

Yes but as 'we' are dealing with what 'we know' then all burdon of accepted truth goes out the window, so it is quite feasable to ask such a thing. As far as I know, no-one anywhere has ever proved that Sinn Fein is the IRA and in fact as I tried to say earlier it was in fact General Maxwell who concatonated the two as at the time of the rising Sinn Fein was proporting a policy of 'dual monarchy' based on the Autro-Hungarian empire a 'Federal Home Rule' under the British crown if you will, so in my view the concatonation of the two is inaccurate in the first instance.

But if 'we commonly know facts' then we can commonly 'know' that the RUC murdered Pat Finucane, that there was an incident involving Charles Haughey and a young woman and an entire plethora of unsubstanciated innuendo knowledge statements based on guilt by association or the pontifications of Dublin's very knowledgable quadropedic verbose canines.

There is a much 'evidence' for Sinn Fein being the IRA as there is for 'certain' politicians supplying guns to the paramilitary Republicans in the north, so if you accept one you must accept the other in my opinion.

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
There is a much 'evidence' for Sinn Fein being the IRA as there is for 'certain' politicians supplying guns to the paramilitary Republicans in the north, so if you accept one you must accept the other in my opinion.

Originally posted by Meh:
Sinn Fein and the IRA are not the same organization.

READ -> COMPREHEND -> POST.

IRISHLILY24

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Mind if I jump in here...

Also to the Sinn Fein supporters on this board:
I understand Sinn Féin in politics is far better than Sinn Féin supporting murder. But what I'd like to know is exactly why anyone would support Sinn Féin? What exactly are their policies? More to the point, do they have any?

And to IRISHLILY24:
Judging from your other posts, I'm guessing you're not originally from Ireland. What were your opinions of SF before arriving in Ireland? Have they changed since you arrived here? Oh and finally, before arriving here, were you under the impression that SF were a large political group rather than the reality - a quite small, but growing, party. I ask that last question because a lot of visitors to Ireland are under the impression that SF are a major force, and are surprised to find that they're not.

Well, I have met Martin Mcguiness in america and he did make it out as though the sinn fein was the largest and fastest growing political party in Ireland. I was under the impression after listening to him that Sinn Fein was trying to unite ireland and its main interest was the peace process. Yes, I thought Sinn fein was a big part of society. After reading everyone's post I realize that there is A lot more that I need to find out.
I plan to live my life and someday die in ireland so naturally I want to do what I can in getting involved in the right politics.
I hav'nt made up my mind yet as to where I stand as I need to do much more research and hear more on what the people think.
thanks

Meh

Originally posted by IRISHLILY24
Well, I have met Martin Mcguiness in america and he did make it out as though the sinn fein was the largest and fastest growing political party in Ireland.

Well, you can't blame him for trying to give that impression. But Sinn Fein is actually the smallest party in the Irish parliament ("Dáil"), with only one representative. Sinn Fein are also in a minority among nationalists in Northern Ireland -- the main nationalist party there is the SDLP. They just get a disproportionate amount of press because of their links with the terrorists in the IRA.