Drug Laws

Canaboid

People have a tendency to turn to cannabis generally because they realise that any low feelings that they are experiencing will drift away with a joint. This is because cannabis messes with the pleasure centre in the brain. This is the part of your brain that teaches you how to react to different experiences. Your pleasure centre reacts well to cannabis...it becomes relaxed and drowsy. This pleasure is a *fake* pleasure, unlike the normal pleasures experienced in life, and the brain cannot process this fully. The pleasure centre of the brain is what conditions you. Messing with it is risky. Cannabis does not leave the body. It has no exit. Over time, cannabis levels build up in the body. This means, that because the pleasure centre is activated by it, the body is unaware of damage being done.

Cannabis can lead, used over a long time, to depression, paranoia, and ultimately, irreversible mental illness. It meddles with the switchboard in the brain, so that incoming and outcoming messages get confused. This is where the paranoia springs from.

The cerebrum (part of brain responsible for judgement), the cerebellum (part of brain for organising muscle function), and medulla and midbrain (connects cerebrum to spinal chord) are all damaged and slowed by cannabis use.

It is a sedative, and lowers the activity of the central nervous system. That means, if the body is attacked with a virus or is injured, it will be dull to react. This can stay with you all your life, thus meaning that you are more likely to die if ever contracting a disease.

Despite research, the way cannabis acts on the chemical make-up of the body is unpredictable. That is why it has not been used in medicine since 1930. Scientists believe that cannabis competes with other natural chemicals in the brain, thus retarding hormone growth. This lowers sex drive, and in women, can retard a baby's growth.

The reason people who have taken cannabis over a long period of time seem slow, is because they are brain-damaged. I am not kidding. They have put their brain to sleep, and there is no way to wake it.

The force of action in cannabis a substance called THC, and is suurprisingly similar to LSD. These are both poisons. Not all hash is the same. Powder hash resin can be up to 16 times strogner than than ordinary marijuana. Depends where its grown, etc.

Temptation becomes tough to resist when cannabis is nearby because the smell activates the pleasure centre. Psychological dependance can occur very quickly. Physical dependance does *not* occur, though.

Effects on the body include bloodshot eyes, dizziness, headaches, backaches, dry nose, mouth and eyes, sick stomach, tendency to become accident prone, asthmatic attacks, sleeplessness, anxiety, depression and psychosomatic pain (ie - you imagine it).

Longterm, since the tars are much stronger and more numerous than those of tobacco, the risks of lung cancer, mouth cancer, throat cancer, painful mucus membrane problems (ie nasal tissues) and if you eat it, stomach cancer, are very high.

The story about nobody dying from hash and lots dying from cigarettes is an urban myth. People *do* die from hash poisoning, and from cancer related to their hash habits.


I know more stuff - but that is a summary. It is not good in any way. Do what you like - but don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I have seen ruined lives because of drug use. I have done research and carried out surveys and won debates.

If anybody wants to know about other drugs, I have a smattering of knowledge about most things and I am always happy to spread the good word.

Canaboid

Oh yeah, go here to see how this topic has already been beaten to death
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21339&perpage=20&highlight=cannabis%20legalise&pagenumber=1

It contains a lot more links to relevant info and basically covers all the arguments quite well.

Boston without being disparaging you need to learn the facts on this issue before you can expect to be taken seriously by people who obviously know a lot more about it.

Typedef, I hope you're trolling.

manonthemoon

Canaboid

I'm not doubting you. Your opinions sound very factful

Are you a doctor, counsellor?

Whats your background

logic1

Originally posted by manonthemoon
Canaboid

I'm not doubting you. Your opinions sound very factful

Are you a doctor, counsellor?

Whats your background

I really don't think there's any need to call for someones credentials here.

If someone makes reasonable valid points and can back it up with fact whether from studies or medical data etc etc.. then that should be more than acceptable for others to form an educated opinion on.

We've seen references to alot of information regarding studies from the WHO and "New Scientist" magazine what seems to be missing is links to information regarding the massive detrimental side effects of cannabis use which alot of users are shouting about.

Can we get some studies or medical data links for those??

.logic.

Shinji

Canaboid - excellent post, and almost entirely factually accurate; however I think that you have missed out on the crucial point that the serious side effects you describe are found only in a very tiny minority of cannabis users after a significant amount of use/abuse of the drug.

These are not typical effects, and indeed the instance of heavy cannabis use actually damaging people is almost certainly less on a per-user basis than the instance of heavy alcohol use damaging people.

There are a few other areas I'd question - however I'm fully prepared to be proved wrong on these.

Despite research, the way cannabis acts on the chemical make-up of the body is unpredictable. That is why it has not been used in medicine since 1930.

Actually I'm given to believe that cannabis is still available in aerosol form for medical use in countries where it has not been banned outright.

Temptation becomes tough to resist when cannabis is nearby because the smell activates the pleasure centre. Psychological dependance can occur very quickly.

Again, just to hammer home the point that this is not actually all that common. Several studies - including some recent ones in the UK - have shown that psychological dependence on cannabis occurs in a very low number of cases. Many cannabis users drop into a pattern of smoking on a semi-regular basis, but very few find it difficult to go without a joint, any more than any other non-critical pattern breaking.

Effects on the body include bloodshot eyes, dizziness, headaches, backaches, dry nose, mouth and eyes, sick stomach, tendency to become accident prone, asthmatic attacks, sleeplessness, anxiety, depression and psychosomatic pain (ie - you imagine it).

These are mostly side effects due to cannabis intolerance. In fact, a great many people - myself included, on occasion - use cannabis in order to deal with backaches, sleeplessness and anxiety, and I know of people who use it to deal with depression with generally positive effects.

Longterm, since the tars are much stronger and more numerous than those of tobacco, the risks of lung cancer, mouth cancer, throat cancer, painful mucus membrane problems (ie nasal tissues) and if you eat it, stomach cancer, are very high.

This depends entirely on your intake, of course. I think it's fair to say that for the most part we've been discussing casual/occasional smoking here, as opposed to "stoners" - the cannabis equivalent of an alcoholic/drunk.

The higher tars in cannabis do not compensate for the fact that the majority of cannabis smokers smoke far, far fewer joints than tobacco smokers do cigarettes or cigars.

The story about nobody dying from hash and lots dying from cigarettes is an urban myth. People *do* die from hash poisoning, and from cancer related to their hash habits.

On the cancer viewpoint, of course - inhaling smoke is never going to be a clever thing to do really, although realistically smoking a joint a couple of times a week probably does less harm than walking around central London/Dublin on a regular basis.

Regarding hash poisoning, I'd genuinely like to see your source on this. I've read a large number of scientific discussions of cannabis which have mentioned that there is no physically attainable lethal dose of the drug - making it less dangerous than something like caffeine - just under 80 cups of coffee and you're a goner!

Boston

wow shinji admitts he may have over simplified the effects of canabis. well done Canaboid

bonkey

I think a point which is being generally overlooked here is the massive difference in reality between substance use and substance abuse.

At the moment, substance abuse is a legal term used to apply to any illicit use of a "controlled" substance. However, if we distance ourselves from the current legalities, we can view it in a completely different light.

When we look at the ill effects of marijuana, it is typically taken out of all context. We look at the long-term effects of massive substance abuse. People say "oh - its terrible - it must remain illegal". But hang on a second - we have thousands of people dying from moderate substance abuse in the form of nicotine. We have equally massive numbers of people dying from alcohol abuse. And yet these are legal?

Taken in moderation, the general scientific consensus is that marijuana has no long-term harmful side effects.

Moderation is a tough term to define. You cant say "one joint per day is ok", because you should be more concerned with the THC intake than the quantity of grass you go through. Ignoring this difference is like talking about "drink intake" by quantity without specifying if you're talking about Bud Light or Blue Vodka.

So - please - unless you are willing to ban every substance which can harm you if taken in excessive quantities, then lets be honest - talking about the dangers of massive longterm marijuana abuse as the reason to illegalise it is facetious and misleading, because the same logic can be used to ban every element and compound on the planet.

Someone earlier raised the point about drink drivers, and whether a stoned driver would be worse or better. Well, for a start, the psychotropic effects of THC wear off far more quickly than those of alcohol, despite the THC remaining in your system for a vastly longer period of time. In that thread just linked to, there should be linkage about a study (from the US?) where it was discovered that there hasnt been a single driving fatality directly attributable to marijuana/THC. In almost every case where the drug was present, the driver
was also over the legal alcohol limit.

Now, I'm not going to take this as conclusive, but given the varying matabolic rates for these two substances, it is highly probable that the vast majority of mixed alcohol/THC cases are directly attributable to alcohol.

Incidentally, this also raises my largest concern about the legalisation of marijuana.

To the best of my knowledge, it is virtually impossible to test for active effects. If we were to say that any traces in your system above a certain level are enough for a conviction, then you could have drivers convicted for having smoked a joint several weeks previously - which is patently a ridiculous situation. The drug is no longer active - it is simply present.

On the other hand, if you can't test for the active quantity, then how do you test for "stoned drivers"?

This dilemma, for me, is the largest stumbling block in legalisation. Unless a workable testing system can be created, then the issue of public safety remains a major one.

bonkey

Originally posted by Canaboid
Longterm, since the tars are much stronger and more numerous than those of tobacco, the risks of lung cancer, mouth cancer, throat cancer, painful mucus membrane problems (ie nasal tissues) and if you eat it, stomach cancer, are very high.

I'm not trying to catch you out, but this (at best) slightly ambiguous.

Are you saying that quantity for quantity it is more dangerous, or that even after you allow for the vastly differing quantities typically ingested that it is *still* more dangerous.

Is there evidence of this, where effects of tobacco have been removed (i.e. testing with pure 'reefer'), or is it unproven speculation based on chemical analysis coupled with observation of the effects on typical canabis-smokers (who, incidentally, are almost exclusively also tobacco smokers, thereby making the analysis judgement vastly more different).

At the end of the day, I guess these facts depend on who you listen to. Tobacco companies have massive websites, and well-paid scientists all of whom allege time and time again that there is no solid evidence that tobacco is physically addictive, or even harmful. Their sole purpose in life is to poke holes in any findings which say otherwise.

While marijuana has somewhat less research done on it, I still find myself skeptical of most findings, as they still tend to be from studies funded by some group with a vested interest in having a particular result obtained. For this reason, I find studies like the afore-mentioned WHO report interesting. It made conclusions which the sponsors didnt like and which therefore were attempted to be suppressed - thankfully unsuccessfully.

As with anything in life, when it all comes down to it, I guess its a question of who you wish to believe, rather than believing you know the truth.

Personally, I am happy that marijuana presents substantially less risk to the individual and society in general than nicotine or alcohol, and that this should be one of the major considerations when discussing its legal status.

As one last note, I remember someone commenting at some point that all of the common drugs which have been left legalised are depressants - and that this is a recent phenonemon. For example - who knows (without going and researching it off the web) when marijuana was banned in Ireland. In England? In other European nations? People often assume it has always been illegal (or at least for a century or two) and may be surprised when they find out the real dates.

jc

Canaboid

Originally posted by neuro-praxis (circa 12 months ago)
People have a tendency to turn to cannabis generally because they realise that any low feelings that they are experiencing will drift away with a joint. This is because cannabis messes with the pleasure centre in the brain. This is the part of your brain that teaches you how to react to different experiences. Your pleasure centre reacts well to cannabis...it becomes relaxed and drowsy. This pleasure is a *fake* pleasure, unlike the normal pleasures experienced in life, and the brain cannot process this fully. The pleasure centre of the brain is what conditions you. Messing with it is risky. Cannabis does not leave the body. It has no exit. Over time, cannabis levels build up in the body. This means, that because the pleasure centre is activated by it, the body is unaware of damage being done.

Cannabis can lead, used over a long time, to depression, paranoia, and ultimately, irreversible mental illness. It meddles with the switchboard in the brain, so that incoming and outcoming messages get confused. This is where the paranoia springs from.

The cerebrum (part of brain responsible for judgement), the cerebellum (part of brain for organising muscle function), and medulla and midbrain (connects cerebrum to spinal chord) are all damaged and slowed by cannabis use.

It is a sedative, and lowers the activity of the central nervous system. That means, if the body is attacked with a virus or is injured, it will be dull to react. This can stay with you all your life, thus meaning that you are more likely to die if ever contracting a disease.

Despite research, the way cannabis acts on the chemical make-up of the body is unpredictable. That is why it has not been used in medicine since 1930. Scientists believe that cannabis competes with other natural chemicals in the brain, thus retarding hormone growth. This lowers sex drive, and in women, can retard a baby's growth.

The reason people who have taken cannabis over a long period of time seem slow, is because they are brain-damaged. I am not kidding. They have put their brain to sleep, and there is no way to wake it.

The force of action in cannabis a substance called THC, and is suurprisingly similar to LSD. These are both poisons. Not all hash is the same. Powder hash resin can be up to 16 times strogner than than ordinary marijuana. Depends where its grown, etc.

Temptation becomes tough to resist when cannabis is nearby because the smell activates the pleasure centre. Psychological dependance can occur very quickly. Physical dependance does *not* occur, though.

Effects on the body include bloodshot eyes, dizziness, headaches, backaches, dry nose, mouth and eyes, sick stomach, tendency to become accident prone, asthmatic attacks, sleeplessness, anxiety, depression and psychosomatic pain (ie - you imagine it).

Longterm, since the tars are much stronger and more numerous than those of tobacco, the risks of lung cancer, mouth cancer, throat cancer, painful mucus membrane problems (ie nasal tissues) and if you eat it, stomach cancer, are very high.

The story about nobody dying from hash and lots dying from cigarettes is an urban myth. People *do* die from hash poisoning, and from cancer related to their hash habits.


I know more stuff - but that is a summary. It is not good in any way. Do what you like - but don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I have seen ruined lives because of drug use. I have done research and carried out surveys and won debates.

If anybody wants to know about other drugs, I have a smattering of knowledge about most things and I am always happy to spread the good word.

Oh dear.

I put this up without the quotes as an exemplary example of the wrongly informed, obsinate and muddled thinking that is typical of the knee jerk, bad m'kay, anti cannabis/drug mentality. Sorry for the subterfuge. It was posted by a boards contributer about a year ago. I recommend going back and reading the (1st few pages at least, it's huge) in the original thread including testimony from a qualified medical practicioner, hi Bob. One thing that is striking on reflection is the difference in how our words were treated on each posting (check out the savaging she took in the original thread).

Another thing I've noticed about these threads on drugs is that the pro lobby are invariably, infinitely better informed, on all aspects of the issue, than the Nos. I am not going to seek advice on how to repair my computer from someone who has never seen one before (and especially one who can't post links to back up what they say ). A certain poster who shares a name with a large American city would do well to remember this.

One suprising omission from this thread is any suggestion of the benefical effect of cannabis. For shame.
Once you state that it is no more harmful than tobacco or alcohol you remove that argument against it's legalisation as there are for more compelling arguments for it's use than, say, ciggerettes.

I'm not going to retype whats already in the old thread but it covers (mostly with proof) issues such as:

Why it was banned and demonised in the first place. (paper/pharmacutical/chemical lobby in the 20s/30s. Yes folks they were even at it back then).

Medical effects, both good and bad.

Why cannabis IS a gateway drug but only by virtue of it's illegality.

The benefits of reclassification and more effective use of police time.

Why the internet is not the ideal medium to debate opposing beliefs.

etc.

Shinji I think you've proved the link between habitual use and memory loss

I'd like to thank cannabis for making this post possible (and curse it fot the typos and overuse of brackets)

Boston

ha you got shinji to swallow his own crap and you didnt even mean it. omg thats just priceless haa, and people pating you on the back for it. haa

i guess some people really cant see the wood from the trees and if you put an argrument nicely enough and simple enough people will believe it. haa

for now on your my favourite user here Canaboid, your allright by me, though i think shinji is going to be pissed

Canaboid

Originally posted by Boston

Ha.

omg ,haa.

haa

haa

Oh for the love of black baby jesus shut up. Fu(king moron.

Am I still your favourite ?

Thomas Kelly

ooops

Shinji

Shinji I think you've proved the link between habitual use and memory loss

Hehe

Not at all - erm, just guessing, as I don't have the thread to hand, but that's one of Neuro_Praxis' posts on the matter? (Sorry if I'm wrong Neuro, I seem to remember you being very anti-drugs at the time).

Everything in it is factually accurate, give or take. You can't turn around to the person who wrote that and accuse them of knowing nothing about the topic, like certain folk on this thread.

Everything in it is entirely blown out of proportion and is missing the caveats about the tiny, tiny percentage of users who are affected by the various symptoms shown. So what you can do is point out the flaws, and the exaggerations, and effectively accuse the poster of knowingly disseminating inaccurate propaganda. That's a different level of debate entirely.

So you're right - it's a very good example of a post being made by an anti-cannabis person which is, effectively, taking the information and twisting it to the tune of their argument. It reads like a preachy drugs information leaflet. You can't fault the majority of the facts, but there's plenty left unsaid and plenty that's presented in a highly exaggerated manner, and that's a hell of a lot more dangerous than some muppet bouncing up and down with no facts and no clue.


(Heh, Boston, I'll respond to any mature post in a mature manner. Note the "mature" caveat there - don't worry kiddo, it's something that'll happen to you sometime I'm sure.)

logic1

Originally posted by Boston
ha you got shinji to swallow his own crap and you didnt even mean it. omg thats just priceless haa, and people pating you on the back for it. haa

i guess some people really cant see the wood from the trees and if you put an argrument nicely enough and simple enough people will believe it. haa

for now on your my favourite user here Canaboid, your allright by me, though i think shinji is going to be pissed

There was absolutely no indication that the post wasn't actually Canaboids true thoughts. I don't know anyone who could have looked at that post and said "Hey her doesn't really mean any of that" (although I did wonder how someone named Cana-boid could post from an anti point of view;))

Plus I didn't see Shinji "eating any ****". He simply took the post at face value and posed a series of questions back at Canaboid based on the assumption that it was Canaboids own words.

If you could put aside your petty 12 year old hate of society in general and argue a simple point people would probably still give you the time of day. As it stands you've proved yourself time and again to be some sort of mental defect.

Also if anyone has any links to sites proving the massively harmful effects of THC as I asked for earlier please feel free to provide em.

.logic.

Boston

logic you seem inable to follow the simplist rules, no personal attacks, please keep your bickering to pms as its not fair on the posters who actually want to discuss the topic.

shinji, sorry if i gave you that impression but right from the start you tock an offencive stance with me, is it any wonder i reacted badly ?

logic1

Originally posted by Boston
bard is anal to the max

Well done pot, kettle, moron.

.logic.

Sand

Dont argue with Boston. It just isnt fair or right to taunt someone like him like that.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Boston
logic you seem inable to follow the simplist rules, no personal attacks, please keep your bickering to pms as its not fair on the posters who actually want to discuss the topic.

Originally posted by Boston
ha you got shinji to swallow his own crap and you didnt even mean it. omg thats just priceless haa, and people pating you on the back for it. haa

All on the same page too. The mind boggles.

Biffa Bacon

The intoxicating effects of cannabis are harmful in and of themselves as it turns you into a person that is not particularly pleasant to be around. I think this is the main reason why any drugs are banned; basically to keep the number of assholes in society down. The debate around harmful side effects is really a side issue.

Meh

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
The intoxicating effects of cannabis are harmful in and of themselves as it turns you into a person that is not particularly pleasant to be around. I think this is the main reason why any drugs are banned; basically to keep the number of assholes in society down. The debate around harmful side effects is really a side issue.

A particularly poor attempt at a troll. Please go away.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Meh
A particularly poor attempt at a troll. Please go away.

Please explain.

bonkey

Obviously the bickering couldnt be kept under control.

Well done lads. & lassies
Thread closed.

jc

Dustaz

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
The intoxicating effects of cannabis are harmful in and of themselves as it turns you into a person that is not particularly pleasant to be around.

Not true. It depends on the person and thier reaction to the drug. Generally people are a lot more 'mellow' than normal and as a result easier to be around.

I think this is the main reason why any drugs are banned;

Entirely wrong.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Dustaz

Not true. It depends on the person and thier reaction to the drug. Generally people are a lot more 'mellow' than normal and as a result easier to be around.

Well, not in my experience. They turn into phoneys.

Entirely wrong.

Why then?

Meh

For God's sake Dustaz, don't feed the troll.